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Axe-man posted:I wish they had a few more episodes of just B cast and let them grow and shine a bit, Lower Decks and Night Shift really were good episodes and allowed the setting to become more a "universe" than the main cast microcaism. McKenzie Westmore really should have been a recurring “one scene every few episodes” guest actor like they had on TNG. I’d have been down for a few more scenes of “Voyager: Night Shift, with Harry Kim and Sheridan Crane”.
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Feb 16, 2021 23:54
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Timby posted:Yeah, Caretaker isn't the worst modern-era Trek pilot (it used to be Broken Bow, and then The Vulcan Hello came along and said "Hold my beer"), but it does pretty much scream at you right from the get-go that Voyager is going to be a show full of pissed-away potential and wasted opportunity. You (and a lot of other people here, I suspect) are going to hate me for saying this, but at this point I don't think we can really call Voyager or even Enterprise "modern-era" Trek any more. I loathe to call it "Berman-era", maybe just TNG+? But we're nearly as far away from the first episode of Enterprise as Encounter at Farpoint was away from The Man Trap. Grand Fromage posted:They never would've gone full Year of Hell, but yeah, the ship should have evolved. Doesn't even necessarily have to be broken down, but they should have modified it to make it home. Like Neelix destroying the captain's mess for the kitchen, that was good and should have happened way more all over the ship. It wasn't always a CG model - I don't remember when they fully switched over, and I know the intro used CGI, but Voyager definitely had a physical studio model. That said, as much as I agree it should have evolved over the show, there's absolutely no way that management would have allowed it. Bryan Fuller mentioned that the writers had hoped to draw out Seven of Nine's transition at least somewhat longer, but UPN cracked down and insisted they had to "get back to the syndication pattern" immediately. And Voyager was still early enough that even with CGI, stock shots were still very much a thing.
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Feb 17, 2021 00:06
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For as much poo poo as Rick Berman gets and deserves for Voyager turning out lacking in comparison to DS9, you also need to remember that Les Moonves was also leering over his shoulder imposing all sorts of bullshit demands on the show because it was on UPN. DS9 didn’t have to worry about being at the whims of a giant capricious sexmonster.
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Feb 17, 2021 00:12
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Yeah there was a physical model used in the first three seasons, but they also used CG from day one. They could have done whatever they wanted with the ship without the valid production issues that damaging your super expensive physical model entails.
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Feb 17, 2021 00:15
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Grand Fromage posted:Also since the ship was a CG model they could have done like the Galactica and had battle damage persist over time. Maybe not to the same extent given what they can do with replicators, but it would have at least been cool if Voyager was in a big battle and you saw the damage from it slowly get repaired and cleaned up over the next several episodes.
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Feb 17, 2021 00:16
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I was just going through blueprints, as one does, and one of the weirdest decisions in there is Voyager has a whole spare warp core that never gets mentioned or becomes a plot point.
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Feb 17, 2021 00:23
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BonHair posted:Voyager had the best doctor though, ironically now competing with Discovery 
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Feb 17, 2021 00:49
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Sorry, but genetically enhanced people don't count. 
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Feb 17, 2021 00:58
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Grand Fromage posted:I was just going through blueprints, as one does, and one of the weirdest decisions in there is Voyager has a whole spare warp core that never gets mentioned or becomes a plot point. Wait, really? I know it's supposed to have a secondary deflector (the gold-ish dish on the upper saucer) that was never mentioned in the show, but the second warp care is new to me.
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Feb 17, 2021 01:05
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Grand Fromage posted:I was just going through blueprints, as one does, and one of the weirdest decisions in there is Voyager has a whole spare warp core that never gets mentioned or becomes a plot point. It also has a giant shuttle docked on the bottom of the saucer that never gets mentioned even when they make a whole thing about needing a bigger shuttle.
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Feb 17, 2021 01:08
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There's what looks like a second warp core on the diagram display of the ship, but I don't read too much into stuff like that. The Enterprise-D had a hamster wheel, after all.
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Feb 17, 2021 01:09
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They broke down the second warp core for parts so they could build more shuttles and torpedoes. Either that or the second warp core was never delivered to Voyager but some other Intrepid-class ship somehow ended up with six.
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Feb 17, 2021 01:09
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Speaking of Voyager Season 2, my wandering thoughts on some more episodes Tattoo- The episode with the Native American Ancient Aliens. Not a lot to say about this as it is a Chakotay episode and pretty boring overall. In retrospect you can tell that their 'Native American advisor' on the show was full of poo poo. Cold Fire- This is supposed to be the payoff for the line of dialogue in the pilot episode about there being another member of the Caretaker's species in our galaxy. Almost the entire episode is spent hyping up this appearance of Suspiria, but she is really only on screen during the final 8 or so minutes and disappears very quickly after Janeway gets the drop on her. It ends up mostly being a Kes episode where some Ocampans who left their homeworld generations ago to live with Suspiria are teaching her about her mental abilities (with mixed results, as she almost accidentally kills Tuvok). The lead Ocampan is played by Gary Graham who will go on to play the recurring role of Ambassador Soval on Enterprise. Allegedly he hated being on Voyager because any script changes had to go through a bunch of different producers for approval which would take forever. Just kind of a disappointment as Suspiria never shows up again and may not even get mentioned either. Apparently this character was kept in the producers' back pocket as an 'escape clause' in case they decided to bring the crew home early and wanted to shake up the format, which never happened. Maneuvers- The episode begins with Voyager getting very quickly clowned on by one Kazon ship, ostensibly because Seska knows how to beat them, but in practice it is because the crew all decide to become brain dead because the plot demands it. At no point do they consider firing torpedoes on the attacking ship, for reasons. This episode continues the Seska arc that started with 'State of Flux' and continues into the beginning of Season 3. Chakotay goes rogue to get to Seska and recover the stolen transporter part. We get some infighting between the Kazon sect run by Seska and her lover Maje Culluh, and introduce the other sects who are allegedly more powerful and have more ships than they do. This drive to take out Voyager continues well beyond this episode. They tack on the reveal at the end that for some reason Seska stole Chakotay's DNA while she had him in custody and impregnated herself with it and is going to have their child for some reason. This isn't even mentioned again in the next episode of this arc. It's not a bad episode but half of the crew act like morons at least once during the episode because otherwise the plot can't happen. Resistance- Another episode with a plot that gets reused many times on Trek. Janeway is stranded on a planet controlled by a fascist government of some kind. The man who rescues her from the authorities is not well mentally and believes that she is his daughter, who we later find out died years ago. The actor who plays the guest star is apparently an accomplished theater actor and tries to make this role interesting, but the episode is boring and I had to look up a summary to remember much about it. Not a whole lot to say as this is one of the many forgettable Voyager episodes that don't stand out well. Prototype- B'Elanna recovers an advanced robotic lifeform and reactivates it. This episode is hard to take seriously as the costumes for the robot race look extremely goofy and more appropriate for a show like Dr. Who. The episode goes into some Prime Directive stuff early on, but that gets thrown out the window when B'Elanna is forced at gunpoint to create a new prototype robot for the robot species or Voyager will be destroyed. I kept feeling like this was meant to be a big Prime Directive episode for Janeway and Torres, but because of how the episode is written that can't really happen. The robots were also not very sympathetic and later are revealed to have wiped out their creators so that they could continue their war against the other robots. Just a bland, mostly forgettable episode outside of the goofy robot costumes. Alliances- Somehow this episode manages to take one somewhat interesting concept that the show mostly abandons (Maquis crew) and uses that to set up another concept that could have been interesting but immediately gets thrown out the window (Voyager creating a mutual defense alliance with another species). There are good ideas in this episode but nothing changes by the end, except that one of the angry Maquis crewmembers finally decides to oppose Janeway by spying for the Kazon Nistrim and Seska. This will be a running plotline as the Seska arc continues. I can't help but find it funny that a running theme of the first two seasons of Voyager is 'everybody in this part of space hates us and thinks we're bad'. I also kind of agree with the Trabe leader that the Kazon are a pile of poo poo and he was right to try and wipe out their leadership. Every single episode with the Kazon has shown that they are a bunch of bastards and have no redeeming qualities to speak of. I will say that this episode is at least interesting, even if by the end nothing really changes except Janeway has managed to piss the Kazon off even more than before. Threshold- What really needs to be said about this pile of garbage that hasn't already been said? It really earns its status as one of the worst of the worst episodes. Which is surprising in some ways, because the first 1/3 of the episode that is about Paris trying to break the Warp 10 barrier is fine. But after he gets back from that flight it's all the way downhill. There are so many disturbing implications of this episode that mostly get glossed over. Did Paris and Janeway give birth to a new species that is just going to continue to exist as some sort of weird abomination? When Paris abducted Janeway to ostensibly mate with her, this can't possibly be consensual? How does it make any sense that future human evolution turns us into some kind of frog people who have intelligence, but ultimately into alligator-sized salamanders who appear to just be regular wild creatures? I really want to know how any of this was signed off on by anyone before it was filmed.
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Feb 17, 2021 01:11
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Veotax posted:Wait, really? I know it's supposed to have a secondary deflector (the gold-ish dish on the upper saucer) that was never mentioned in the show, but the second warp care is new to me. Yeah, it's in both the blueprints and the on-screen MSD. The door to access it is on the model too. https://www.flickr.com/photos/113879533@N02/21216913350/in/album-72157658615097255/ https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Intrepid_class?file=Intrepid_class_MSD.jpg
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Feb 17, 2021 01:20
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:You (and a lot of other people here, I suspect) are going to hate me for saying this, but at this point I don't think we can really call Voyager or even Enterprise "modern-era" Trek any more. I loathe to call it "Berman-era", maybe just TNG+? But we're nearly as far away from the first episode of Enterprise as Encounter at Farpoint was away from The Man Trap. “90s Trek”.
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Feb 17, 2021 01:23
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Sir Lemming posted:"Oh, so this is going to be a new type of Star Trek show, something we've never seen before? A more literal extension of what DS9 started, examining how we get from where we are today to Roddenberry's utopian vision?" Apparently one of the original plans for Enterprise was to have the entire first season be dedicated to the building of Enterprise and have the season finale be the launching of the ship.
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Feb 17, 2021 01:25
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skasion posted:I guess it could be its when you put your hand in someones rear end and do the v thing
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Feb 17, 2021 01:41
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:You (and a lot of other people here, I suspect) are going to hate me for saying this, but at this point I don't think we can really call Voyager or even Enterprise "modern-era" Trek any more. I loathe to call it "Berman-era", maybe just TNG+? But we're nearly as far away from the first episode of Enterprise as Encounter at Farpoint was away from The Man Trap. This is a very good point, and the symmetry also includes an interregnum of many years when there was no new Trek on the air eta: and "TV" has arguably changed as much if not more between the end of Enterprise/beginning of Discovery as it had between end of TOS/beginning of TNG Admiralty Flag fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Feb 17, 2021 |
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Feb 17, 2021 02:08
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Veotax posted:Wait, really? I know it's supposed to have a secondary deflector (the gold-ish dish on the upper saucer) that was never mentioned in the show, but the second warp care is new to me. The Intrepid class was a long range research vessel, so it had backups of vital systems to allow it to limp home if the primary failed.
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Feb 17, 2021 02:14
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Admiralty Flag posted:and "TV" has arguably changed as much if not more between the end of Enterprise/beginning of Discovery as it had between end of TOS/beginning of TNG Well...yeah. Between TOS and TNG, the only major change since 1969 was that some people had cable that gave them as many as 35 channels. A given city might not have a Fox affiliate yet, leaving everyone with the big three networks, channels built on syndicated programming, and the few cable networks (if you had cable) like ESPN, CNN, and TBS. Literally everything changed between Enterprise and Discovery. YouTube was three months old when Enterprise ended, so the basic concept of "you can watch a video on the internet" that wasn't a Quicktime or RealPlayer video was still the future to most people. It would be another two years until Netflix became something other than the company that sent you dvds in the mail.
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Feb 17, 2021 02:24
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Sash! posted:Well...yeah. Between TOS and TNG, the only major change since 1969 was that some people had cable that gave them as many as 35 channels. A given city might not have a Fox affiliate yet, leaving everyone with the big three networks, channels built on syndicated programming, and the few cable networks (if you had cable) like ESPN, CNN, and TBS. I was thinking more along the lines of the advent of "prestige TV" and serial storytelling when I wrote that, tbh I only thought of streaming obliquely in the context of those types of concepts when I banged out that line
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Feb 17, 2021 02:41
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Grand Fromage posted:They never would've gone full Year of Hell, but yeah, the ship should have evolved. Doesn't even necessarily have to be broken down, but they should have modified it to make it home. Like Neelix destroying the captain's mess for the kitchen, that was good and should have happened way more all over the ship. I think it's one of the age old complaints, but Voyager was lost for seven years, faced the prospect of being a generation ship and it never once looked like it was lived in or someones home If I expected to spend decades in my office I'd be redecorating and renegotiating the dress code pretty quickly. It's no Galaxy class but the Intrepid wasn't small, there should have been Delta Quadrant artifacts all over that thing, convert some places like science labs into living areas, turn a cargo bay into a garden people can hang out in without burning holodeck power. Those kinds of things. It seems like such a no-brainer for the premise they were running with.
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Feb 17, 2021 02:54
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Re: the temporal cold war on Enterprise, not even Berman and Braga wanted that. The studio desperately wanted another TNG sequel because they were hoping for TNG numbers, and the Temporal Cold War was inserted onto Enterprise as a concession to allow it to link up to the 'future' if need be, in order to get the studio to approve the prequel. Star Trek's biggest problem was always being pulled in about a hundred different directions.
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Feb 17, 2021 03:17
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I honestly think the Temporal Cold War wasn't that bad an idea - it could have worked as a way to add some unexpected twists to a prequel, and given how common time travel had become in the 24th century shows, it makes sense that eventually everyone could do it and cause problems. And it could have tied into the show's themes - having the crew dealing with the legacy of what they're doing, emphasizing that everything they do at this early stage of spaceflight will have dramatic impacts on the future - but that would have required the factions to have clearer motivations and goals, rather than just being literally shadowy nameless figures.
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Feb 17, 2021 04:02
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FlamingLiberal posted:Cold Fire- This is supposed to be the payoff for the line of dialogue in the pilot episode about there being another member of the Caretaker's species in our galaxy. This is such a bizarre thing to hold on to, given it would be trivial to just come up with another get-home-quick concept that actually worked (find a wormhole, steal a transwarp doohickey, etc). I remember reading that around midway through the series some of the writers started openly discussing whether or not they should just bag it and bring Voyager home and do the rest of the series as straight TNG2. I wonder how close that came to fruition and what the biggest argument against it was. skasion posted:“90s Trek”. Ugh except I hate that people assume all of TNG is "90s" when the first three seasons started in the 80s, and Enterprise ran to 2005.
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Feb 17, 2021 05:57
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Voyager would have been greatly improved if they could have returned at any time, but chose not to. Season 1: Voyager gets stranded in the Delta Quadrant, starts the trip back to the Alpha Quadrant, settles up up the Maquis issues Season 2: Continues the trip home, has adventures, comes to terms with likely never getting home, and turns into an extended trip home. Season 2 Finale: Voyager finds a way home (wormhole or something) that is only available for a brief period every year or so. They send a shuttlecraft back to Earth, as a test, which succeeds. However, Starfleet offers Voyager an option: a five year mission to study the Delta Quadrant. Anyone that wants to come home can do so, if they choose, and any charges against Maquis members are dropped, in light of their help in getting Voyager this far. Season 3: Voyager accepts and begins the first Five Year Mission since Kirk's days. Season 7: Well you get the idea
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Feb 17, 2021 06:23
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Voyager should have gotten home in the S7 opener, had the whole season deal with the ramifications of their trip, and had the finale center around the whole crew reuniting after dealing with Starfleet bureaucracy and deciding to go back out and explore as a crew again. But that would have required a likeable cast with shared charisma and competent creators who weren’t burnt out husks, so
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Feb 17, 2021 06:27
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One reason I liked that Enterprise episode about the time-displaced duplicate NX-01 is because I felt like that's what Voyager should've looked like when it got home: decades out of its time, patched together with random ill-fitting collected parts and salvage, crewed almost entirely by descendants of the original crew. I'm not sure how you structure an entire seven-year series around that ending, but maybe each season represents roughly ten years of travel or has a big time skip in the season finales. As usual whenever alternate treatments for Voyager come up in this thread, most are more interesting than what actually aired, at least on paper.
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Feb 17, 2021 06:45
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Sash! posted:The Vulcan Hello is a sex act, right? Nanu nanu
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Feb 17, 2021 06:54
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Sash! posted:The Vulcan Hello is a sex act, right? My cock...to your cock...
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Feb 17, 2021 06:56
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Release docking clamps, clear all moorings, steady as she goes
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Feb 17, 2021 07:17
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Big Mean Jerk posted:Voyager should have gotten home in the S7 opener, had the whole season deal with the ramifications of their trip, and had the finale center around the whole crew reuniting after dealing with Starfleet bureaucracy and deciding to go back out and explore as a crew again. That or do the premise of Endgame on a whole season scale. Have Season 7 be a closed story loop that opens with Voyager making it back to Earth, though with a few things out of place from how the Status Quo was at the end of Season 6, and then split the time hopping back and forth between showing the crew dealing with the ramifications of the trip and the end of the Dominion War and the story of how they got home in the first place. Though that was probably also beyond the ken of the people in charge and involved seeing as how they couldn't even really pull it off well in a single two parter. E: I just have this image of a final send off shot that goes from Janeway telling Paris to set a course "for the unknown", Voyager flying across the surface of the moon, the camera panning away from Voyager to show the Starfleet armada that meets Voyager at it's homecoming zip into frame as the transpwarp aperture opens and Voyager flies out and then you get that scene of Janeway going "set a course... for home." so you can wrap the series on the same line the pilot wrapped out and it not be a frustrating cocktease. nine-gear crow fucked around with this message at 07:46 on Feb 17, 2021 |
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Feb 17, 2021 07:41
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Season 7 starts with Voyager finding a stable wormhole, but they can’t tell the destination until they go through it. So they do... and end up behind Dominion lines in the Gamma quadrant. Season 7 is then all about Voyager trying to stay out of Dominion sight while also surreptitiously helping the war effort when possible.
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Feb 17, 2021 07:44
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God, what I wouldn't have given for some kind of post-Voyager Arrowverse Crisis on Infinite Earths-style crossover event series between Voyager, DS9, and TNG. Bring all three crews together and tell one big like 6 or 8 episode-long story just as a send off to that era of Trek and then throw the keys to Enterprise. Again, unfeasible, but gently caress that noise it would have been awesome.
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Feb 17, 2021 08:01
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:You (and a lot of other people here, I suspect) are going to hate me for saying this, but at this point I don't think we can really call Voyager or even Enterprise "modern-era" Trek any more. I loathe to call it "Berman-era", maybe just TNG+? But we're nearly as far away from the first episode of Enterprise as Encounter at Farpoint was away from The Man Trap. I think of "old trek" as TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY. And "modern" Trek as DISCO/PICARD. Enterprise I always forget is a star trek show tbh.
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Feb 17, 2021 08:10
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Pick posted:I think of "old trek" as TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY. And "modern" Trek as DISCO/PICARD. Enterprise I always forget is a star trek show tbh. Oh you could always just label that "star trek" and then for the new ones: star wars: the next franchise
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Feb 17, 2021 08:13
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Axe-man posted:Oh you could always just label that "star trek" and then for the new ones: star wars: the next franchise Things I like: Star Trek Things I don't like: Not Star Trek
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Feb 17, 2021 08:24
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Things that are Star Trek: TOS, TAS, The Movies, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, DIS, Short Treks, PIC, LDS, SNW, Prodigy, Section 31, and all the books, games, and comics Things that are not Star Trek: ...
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Feb 17, 2021 08:36
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nine-gear crow posted:Things that are Star Trek: TOS, TAS, The Movies, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, DIS, Short Treks, PIC, LDS, SNW, Prodigy, Section 31, and all the books, games, and comics Jackie Chan Adventures?
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Feb 17, 2021 08:43
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Good star trek: about half of TOS, most of TNG, almost all of DS9, about 20 episodes of Voy, Star: Trek Elite Force (but only the part where I'm playing multiplayer on teamspeak with my friends), Lower Decks, half of the movies, a handful of the books, Galaxy Quest Bad Star Trek: Disco, Picard, the other half of the movies, the rest of the books Sanguinia posted:Jackie Chan Adventures? One more thing...
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Feb 17, 2021 08:44
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