There is a spectrum haunting C-SPAM. I, on the contrary,

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Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Btw going back to Soviet history, one of the key factors of how the Soviet Union's political economy worked out is again by that point is simply accounting and that by the end of the first five-year plan they had simply run out of money. I could get into all the trade flows involved, but simply enough, the Soviet Union's industrialization wasn't just a prestige project but necessary in order to initiate a modernization of its military. In a sense, Soviet Russia/the Soviet Union expect for a brief period in the mid-1920s was at war or pre-preparing for war continually between 1918 and 1945.

I would say the PRC learned this lesson and part of the reason they have laid low until recently was to allow their economy to grow the point that an armed build-up wouldn't seriously compromise their economy. That said, at this point, the PRC's economy is large enough especially in PPP terms that they can expand their military at 8-10% a year and it doesn't seem to affect them.

I would Rojava has simply comparisons to be made but at the same time it seems for the most part they are dependent on either foreign arms or troops directly on the ground. I don't think the example of Chiapas is that useful, even if they occasionally tangle with police and security forces.

The problem is always how to effect serious action outside the a very local area without the framework of a state, because once you accept a state, you accept everything that comes with it (unresponsible elites, military spending, corruption etc etc).

Ardennes fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Mar 23, 2021

# ? Mar 23, 2021 02:29

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# ? May 11, 2024 11:58

Finicums Wake: Mar 13, 2017; Can't post for 8 years!

Ferrinus posted:

the more marx and marx-adjacent stuff i read the more i'm convinced that dialectical materialism is actually of paramount importance to political analysis, but at the same time i'm cringing as i read this line in the "Anarchism or Socialism" piece linked above

both materialism and dialectical thinking are necessary for cogent political and social analysis, more so now than ever. and it is precisely because i share these commitments with posters ITT that i push back on formulations like DiaMat, which, imo, became a replacement for actually thinking through issues in a materialist and dialectical way

# ? Mar 23, 2021 02:35

OK baizuo: Mar 19, 2021; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Finicums Wake posted:

lmao if you think philosophy and science work the same way. double lmao if you think the marxists in the soviet union achieved the goal of making science and philosophy continuous with each other in a way that their arguments stand the test of time in the same way that scientific theories do.

someone like quine got closer to that ideal--of unifying philosophy and the natural sciences--than most marxists, but ultimately failed. i take no position on whether such a unification is possible or not, all i'm doing is observing that the people who have tried such things have all failed.

so, i'm saying DiaMat as an official doctrine of how the world is, and how we ought investigate it, is flawed.

as marxists, if our response to anarchists is merely "learn the soviet version of marx's dialectical method," whatever the hell that's supposed to mean, then we're not going to convince many anarchists that they're wrong

We all stand upon the shoulders of giants, and if us humble cspam marxists can't convince a bunch of Portland anarchists to accept the immortal science, well, i guess that's what the reeducation camps are for

# ? Mar 23, 2021 02:45

F Stop Fitzgerald: Dec 12, 2010

Finicums Wake posted:

both materialism and dialectical thinking are necessary for cogent political and social analysis, more so now than ever. and it is precisely because i share these commitments with posters ITT that i push back on formulations like DiaMat, which, imo, became a replacement for actually thinking through issues in a materialist and dialectical way

maybe its me wildly misinformed but is "DiaMat" not just a shorthand for dialectical materialism? if all this couldve been avoided because i had fully typed out 'dialectical thinking and materialist theory', then uhh my bad

# ? Mar 23, 2021 02:45

Dreylad: Jun 19, 2001

THS posted:

yeah it�s weird how you aren�t actually destined to be reviled for being a mod if you aren�t thin skinned as hell with an itchy trigger finger

he did troll bernie people some but it was to get some of them to lighten up. how the gently caress has this forum gotten more serious since being freed from the tether of d&d it's just bizarre

# ? Mar 23, 2021 02:47

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

OK baizuo posted:

We all stand upon the shoulders of giants, and if us humble cspam marxists can't convince a bunch of Portland anarchists to accept the immortal science, well, i guess that's what the reeducation camps are for

To be fair, Portland anarchists could barely organize their way out of a Plaid Pantry. It isn't that nothing in going on in Portland but who the hell knows that actually is being accomplished.

# ? Mar 23, 2021 02:49

Finicums Wake: Mar 13, 2017; Can't post for 8 years!

F Stop Fitzgerald posted:

maybe its me wildly misinformed but is "DiaMat" not just a shorthand for dialectical materialism? if all this couldve been avoided because i had fully typed out 'dialectical thinking and materialist theory', then uhh my bad

i associate "DiaMat" specifically with the soviet state's interpretation of dialectical thinking and materialist history, which i think had a lot of problems with it. they normally refrered to their body of teaching as "DiaMat" so i thought that's what you were talking about. my bad

# ? Mar 23, 2021 02:58

Southpaugh: May 26, 2007; Smokey Bacon

F Stop Fitzgerald posted:

maybe its me wildly misinformed but is "DiaMat" not just a shorthand for dialectical materialism? if all this couldve been avoided because i had fully typed out 'dialectical thinking and materialist theory', then uhh my bad

uh I think they are referring to "diamat" as it as it crystalized into a specific form during the lifespan of the soviet union. People learned "the diamat" in school.

Edit: yup

# ? Mar 23, 2021 02:58

dead gay comedy forums: Oct 21, 2011

Ardennes posted:

Btw going back to Soviet history, one of the key factors of how the Soviet Union's political economy worked out is again by that point is simply accounting and that by the end of the first five-year plan they had simply run out of money. I could get into all the trade flows involved, but simply enough, the Soviet Union's industrialization wasn't just a prestige project but necessary in order to initiate a modernization of its military

for real, war communism is one hell of a fascinating subject of political economy and honestly, Trotsky as Commissar of the Military was incredibly prescient and rather on point on making the case for central planning as a matter of life or death for the union (which explains his later stubbornness in defending war communism as a main driver of economic development, which imo he was completely wrong about)

it is very ironic that a good bunch of years later Stalin basically did quite a lot of what he proposed in terms of industrial policy at that time

and yeah a noteworthy thing about the CCP, at least historically, is that the guys had a lot of back and forth about the soviet experiences; iirc from the little I know, Mao and Zhou in particular were quite critical of Stalin for doing what can be summed up as counter-productive dumbassery. This led to quite extensive consideration on terms of how to balance the formation of an industrial proletariat against the stability of the agrarian base (from the pov of political economy)

# ? Mar 23, 2021 02:59

F Stop Fitzgerald: Dec 12, 2010

Finicums Wake posted:

i associate "DiaMat" specifically with the soviet state's interpretation of dialectical thinking and materialist history, which i think had a lot of problems with it. they normally refrered to their body of teaching as "DiaMat" so i thought that's what you were talking about. my bad

ahh ok, i didn't actually know that! i thought i was just being lazy

# ? Mar 23, 2021 03:02

comedyblissoption: Mar 15, 2006

which mods are willing to call the concentration camps concentration camps
https://twitter.com/JerryDunleavy/status/1373973335541956619

# ? Mar 23, 2021 03:44

OK baizuo: Mar 19, 2021; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Finicums Wake posted:

i associate "DiaMat" specifically with the soviet state's interpretation of dialectical thinking and materialist history, which i think had a lot of problems with it. they normally refrered to their body of teaching as "DiaMat" so i thought that's what you were talking about. my bad

I took political economy courses from a former Sovietologist and I never once was taught about "the diamat" lol despite dialectical materialism being one of the first concepts introduced in his classes who the gently caress calls it this

OK baizuo fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Mar 23, 2021

# ? Mar 23, 2021 03:53

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

dead gay comedy forums posted:

for real, war communism is one hell of a fascinating subject of political economy and honestly, Trotsky as Commissar of the Military was incredibly prescient and rather on point on making the case for central planning as a matter of life or death for the union (which explains his later stubbornness in defending war communism as a main driver of economic development, which imo he was completely wrong about)

it is very ironic that a good bunch of years later Stalin basically did quite a lot of what he proposed in terms of industrial policy at that time

and yeah a noteworthy thing about the CCP, at least historically, is that the guys had a lot of back and forth about the soviet experiences; iirc from the little I know, Mao and Zhou in particular were quite critical of Stalin for doing what can be summed up as counter-productive dumbassery. This led to quite extensive consideration on terms of how to balance the formation of an industrial proletariat against the stability of the agrarian base (from the pov of political economy)

The problem with Trotsky�s proposal really is that the Soviet Union materially couldn�t sustain centralization in 1923. It simply didn�t have the tools, most of its locomotives had been ground down by the Civil War and there was a strong arguement to be made for a pause. Also oil exports started gaining steam in this era and that required a workable relationship with the West.

His timing was off.

# ? Mar 23, 2021 03:54

TheSlutPit: Dec 26, 2009

CSPAM: I took political economy courses from a former Sovietologist and I

# ? Mar 23, 2021 03:58

Victory Position: Mar 16, 2004

Xaris posted:

oh that's too bad, they were the best cspam mod. mostly because they didn't take it very seriously

they took it with all of the seriousness that role deserves, in that sometimes you probe someone for making an awful post about food

# ? Mar 23, 2021 04:21

Doktor Avalanche: Dec 30, 2008

Flavius Aetass posted:

I still have a couple days of chain probes left but i want to honestly reexamine the Xinjiang issue and other things that have been pissing you off afterwards, with your input.

un-threadban uninterrupted - there's the input

# ? Mar 23, 2021 04:23

studio mujahideen: May 3, 2005

brutalist mcdonalds was a good mod, bummer

# ? Mar 23, 2021 04:33

Fortaleza: Feb 21, 2008

Varinn posted:

brutalist mcdonalds was a good mod, bummer

# ? Mar 23, 2021 04:34

really queer Christmas: Apr 22, 2014

Flavius Aetass posted:

I still have a couple days of chain probes left but i want to honestly reexamine the Xinjiang issue and other things that have been pissing you off afterwards, with your input.

My mod feedback is you should make another post in fyad.

# ? Mar 23, 2021 04:45

lumpentroll: Mar 4, 2020

really queer Christmas posted:

My mod feedback is you should make another post in fyad.

# ? Mar 23, 2021 04:49

lumpentroll: Mar 4, 2020

wait why did he quit

# ? Mar 23, 2021 04:49

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

I still haven't made my pilgrimage to the Brutalist KFC, rip

# ? Mar 23, 2021 04:51

Mr. Lobe: Feb 23, 2007; ... Dry bones...

Varinn posted:

brutalist mcdonalds was a good mod, bummer

Presenté

# ? Mar 23, 2021 04:53

dead gay comedy forums: Oct 21, 2011

brutalist mcdonalds is an excellent cspam nickname now that I think about it

rip in peace

# ? Mar 23, 2021 04:53

Victory Position: Mar 16, 2004

gradenko_2000 posted:

I still haven't made my pilgrimage to the Brutalist KFC, rip

the Brutalist McDonald's in Chicago isn't the greatest example, but it is one, or used to be one before they finished construction

# ? Mar 23, 2021 05:00

smarxist: Jul 26, 2018; by Fluffdaddy

the one in Chicago is so weird because it's the brightest thing in 5 blocks and you can see it from that far away and then you get close and you're like .... really?

# ? Mar 23, 2021 05:03

Victory Position: Mar 16, 2004

not the glass one, it's the little poo poo one near the Mercantile on Jackson

# ? Mar 23, 2021 05:04

Second Hand Meat Mouth: Sep 12, 2001

comedyblissoption posted:

which mods are willing to call the concentration camps concentration camps
https://twitter.com/JerryDunleavy/status/1373973335541956619

# ? Mar 23, 2021 05:17

Yossarian-22: Oct 26, 2014

Flavius Aetass posted:

I still have a couple days of chain probes left but i want to honestly reexamine the Xinjiang issue and other things that have been pissing you off afterwards, with your input.

hey man thanks, you probably won't hear it from anyone else but not many people have the stomach to reexamine anything much less a mod

# ? Mar 23, 2021 05:17

Xaris: Jul 25, 2006; Lucky there's a family guy
Lucky there's a man who positively can do
All the things that make us
Laugh and cry

Yossarian-22 posted:

hey man thanks, you probably won't hear it from anyone else but not many people have the stomach to reexamine anything much less a mod

I agree it's good to re-examine things and good to do it. unlike say a certain admin who literally did this:

As mentioned, the larger problem is there doesn't need to be "a line". if someone is being stupid the entire forum will flame them out and that's that. but it's very reasonable for people to be suspicious of State Department/biden/trump/falung gong/mike pompeo tariff-war propaganda intended to distract and divert and then presume a moral high ground.

basically these two posts re-cap everything that's been said or will be said:

apropos to nothing posted:

the CCP has imo used the war on terror to escalate the repression of muslim minorities in xinjiang for decades. they have been jailing political dissidents and labor organizers all over the country during that time as well, especially over the last 5 years. I also believe they are an imperialist power, and recent events in myanmar and the ccp political approach to them are a good example of this imo. however, mods should not be inflicting punishments on people who fall on a different side of a contentious issue, especially in forums that are on paper about debating and discussing. so for example, i think this way and so i state my opinion and reasons for it in an attempt to convince others, rather than punish them for wrong think. its not just china either you also have posters in dnd punished for calling the border camps in the US concentration camps which is a position that sitting US congress people hold publicly but which posters cannot say in threads set aside for that exact discussion to be had. I agree with calling them concentration camps cause they imo are but I would also not want those who insist they are NOT concentration camps to be punished for making points to that effect even if I disagree with them. regardless of whether you agree with that classification or not, dont punish people who disagree with you politically. also unban larry and the others.

Raskolnikov38 posted:

i dunno whats there to discuss. we all largely agree the PRC isn't treating its uighur citizens as they should be but unless you're dumb enough to believe zenz they're not murdering non-han to feast upon/transplant their organs. stop probing/banning people for pointing this out but do punish them if they're legit arguing that the forced assimilation/cultural repression isn't happening

And this is an Exhibit A of awful "moderation" that should be abolished, at least it should not have a place in CSPAM.

Bathtub Cheese posted:

China will have always been along for the ride with respect to carbon intensive modernization because the alternative was some flavor of neocolonial relationship with the West.

in the present, China isn�t as bad on the climate front and the gap will only grow in the future, coinciding with the gap between the increasingly frantic American claims of genocide in China and reality.

we�re all doomed anyway but China will fall apart slower

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Xaris fucked around with this message at 05:28 on Mar 23, 2021

# ? Mar 23, 2021 05:22

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Varinn posted:

brutalist mcdonalds was a good mod, bummer

thanks... i barely used my buttons...

lumpentroll posted:

wait why did he quit

i don't agree with those probes, but i don't want to make a QCS row out of it. that's the last thing i want to do. i had been meaning to ask the admins to de-mod me for awhile. i wasn't keeping up with it and lost interest. maybe i'll go back to it, but i'd rather just be a poster for now

# ? Mar 23, 2021 08:25

Victory Position: Mar 16, 2004

post on

# ? Mar 23, 2021 08:26

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

like i said, i'd just prefer to be a poster. but i don't think my overall views about moderation in general changed at all. i think mods can make errors or just be flat-out wrong about things, and i have my opinion, but i believe they're necessary. history teaches us that the internet is littered with dead forums because the toxic posters took over the place and drove everyone else out. there's a flipside to moderation that is too heavy-handed since a culture of constant antagonism or animus towards mods can also be used by the toxic posters as a shield. these problems on both sides of the equation exist here. that's just the reality of the internet.

# ? Mar 23, 2021 08:59

StashAugustine: Mar 24, 2013; Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

it is really funny to me that were having the trots vs stalinists vs anarchists argument at the same time as were all bitching about mods

# ? Mar 23, 2021 14:36

dex_sda: Oct 11, 2012

StashAugustine posted:

it is really funny to me that were having the trots vs stalinists vs anarchists argument at the same time as were all bitching about mods

Some things are absolute beyond debate, for instance mods being suckass

# ? Mar 23, 2021 14:40

THS: Sep 15, 2017

BrutalistMcDonalds posted:

like i said, i'd just prefer to be a poster. but i don't think my overall views about moderation in general changed at all. i think mods can make errors or just be flat-out wrong about things, and i have my opinion, but i believe they're necessary. history teaches us that the internet is littered with dead forums because the toxic posters took over the place and drove everyone else out. there's a flipside to moderation that is too heavy-handed since a culture of constant antagonism or animus towards mods can also be used by the toxic posters as a shield. these problems on both sides of the equation exist here. that's just the reality of the internet.

the internet makes us stupid

# ? Mar 23, 2021 15:07