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World War Mammories posted:fondly remembering the various games journalists who were extremely perturbed that harry couldn't cure measurehead's racism or cuno's juvenile delinquency i am a moron posted:Wow some of you must be insufferable irl. They set the table early talking about apes duking it out - the fact that some of you got so attached to another form of tribalism presented in the game says more about you than me. There isn’t an oversimplified political ideology they didn’t take the piss out of, but congratulations on your intellectually superior reading of the game I guess. (hint: the "apes duking it out" is from Harry's point of view. The point of view of a broken man who's lost everything he cared about in his life and only keeps himself going by throwing himself entirely into his job & various mind-altering substances.)
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Mar 25, 2021 21:46
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i am a moron posted:Wow some of you must be insufferable irl. They set the table early talking about apes duking it out - the fact that some of you got so attached to another form of tribalism presented in the game says more about you than me. There isn’t an oversimplified political ideology they didn’t take the piss out of, but congratulations on your intellectually superior reading of the game I guess. You know they talk about the evil apes duking it out on the ball again later, with a much different take on things, right?
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Mar 25, 2021 21:46
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in terms of being harsh on communism, i think its an important note that the aspect of yourself that gets into it isnt anything high minded. Instead, it's rhetoric, and rhetoric not in the sense of convincing people of anything but instead in finding out the best way to piss people off. it also basically says that you want to kill everyone in an ideologically glorified manner. which is more or less comedic hyperbole but also a form of rhetorically justified murderous misanthropy that is extremely true for some leftists. also it was funny that when you meet another communist he complains about how fake you are. but he complains about any ideology you adopt being fake afaik, compared to the glorifed heyday they're fixated on.
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Mar 25, 2021 21:48
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I'm very much looking forward to a replay - I only did one playthrough as a LN, High volition Boring Cop who was just here to do his job right and try not to fall completely apart. With a sprinkling of good deeds here and there. Things are will be getting NUTS. I've heard High Shivers/Inland Empire is a great combo.
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Mar 25, 2021 21:49
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homework for everyone who seriously wants to consider the phenomenological/political themes before the final cut comes out: read mark fisher
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Mar 25, 2021 21:50
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DourCricket posted:I'm very much looking forward to a replay - I only did one playthrough as a LN, High volition Boring Cop who was just here to do his job right and try not to fall completely apart. With a sprinkling of good deeds here and there.
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Mar 25, 2021 21:54
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oscarthewilde posted:homework for everyone who seriously wants to consider the phenomenological/political themes before the final cut comes out: read mark fisher Capitalist Realism is extremely short and concise so it's not even onerous homework. However I've never gotten far betting on goons reading
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Mar 25, 2021 21:58
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Spangly A posted:they thanked engels in their awards speech, I think they're more than leaning into socialism. Marx too. The apes duking it out on the ball of dirt feels like a Rorschach test for Harry. Who are the apes? Why are they fighting? All of that depends on which ideology you follow. An ultraliberal might see it as the natural competition in the marketplace. The fascist might point out that they are apes, and therefore it must be the evolutionary struggle between the races. A communist would state that the reason they are apes is because this is a fight that has existed since the dawn of history, the Class Struggle between the haves and the have-nots. And the moralist would find all of these point of views equally absurd and dismiss the entire dream as unknowable and pointless. Tiler Kiwi posted:also it was funny that when you meet another communist he complains about how fake you are. but he complains about any ideology you adopt being fake afaik, compared to the glorifed heyday they're fixated on. I gotta do an ultraliberal run, but I really want to do the communist vision quest. Cpt_Obvious fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Mar 25, 2021 |
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Mar 25, 2021 22:25
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DourCricket posted:I'm very much looking forward to a replay - I only did one playthrough as a LN, High volition Boring Cop who was just here to do his job right and try not to fall completely apart. With a sprinkling of good deeds here and there. Best skills, with esprit de corps for the hat trick
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Mar 25, 2021 22:36
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The game's handling of centrism makes for some hilarious reactions. But yeah, the developers' marxist bent is p. obvious.
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Mar 25, 2021 22:52
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DourCricket posted:Things are will be getting NUTS. I've heard High Shivers/Inland Empire is a great combo. UP AND ADAM posted:Best skills, with esprit de corps for the hat trick i barely leveled these up at all my first time through so this is absolutely my plan for the next run
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Mar 25, 2021 23:25
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Nosfereefer posted:The game's handling of centrism makes for some hilarious reactions. they are far left Estonians and the main writer has a bust of Lenin at his desk lmao (The main writer for the final cut is that French lady who thanks Marx and Engels for their political education, Helen Hindpere)
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Mar 25, 2021 23:34
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Tiler Kiwi posted:in terms of being harsh on communism, i think its an important note that the aspect of yourself that gets into it isnt anything high minded. Instead, it's rhetoric, and rhetoric not in the sense of convincing people of anything but instead in finding out the best way to piss people off. it also basically says that you want to kill everyone in an ideologically glorified manner. which is more or less comedic hyperbole but also a form of rhetorically justified murderous misanthropy that is extremely true for some leftists. the part about the tragedy of the revolution and communism in general in that world that really hits home is where you visit that place where a bunch of revolutionaries were lined up and shot. The whole city was a battlefield, and even Harry is a child of that revolution, born in the last days of it. A lot the rest of it is pretty straightforward critique. Which is good! I like the fact that the game plays with ideology by making characters who are good to you adhere to pretty questionable ideologies, and some of the jerks in the game have sometimes sympathetic ideologies. Except fascism, that's given no quarter at all.
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Mar 26, 2021 00:02
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I think Rene is depicted in a sympathetic way, even if his ideology and the things it has done to him isn't. And he's a literal fascist footsoldier.
GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Mar 26, 2021 |
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Mar 26, 2021 00:08
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GlyphGryph posted:I think Rene is depicted in a sympathetic way, even if his ideology and the things it has done to him isn't. And he's a literal fascist footsoldier. Rene is the disillusioned fascist, and as such the most sympathetic fascist. Each ideology gets someone who is on the verge of becoming a former member of their ideology.
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Mar 26, 2021 00:23
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Rene also likes it when you say one of the fascist things instead of one of the communist things or loving off, as doing that gives a +1 bonus to his specific skillcheck
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Mar 26, 2021 00:24
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I feel like Rene kinda represents the fascism people are a little too familiar and comfortable with. He is functionally a nazi, right? An old school fascist. Clear and present but irrelevant. You could hold it all against him but what would it matter, hes spent gum. He literally dies of old age practically unrepentant for his many many awful crimes and beliefs.
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Mar 26, 2021 00:35
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filippe the opulent was a real piece of work but I don't think he was carrying out any intentional genocides if you want an analog of a banal nazi that people are sadly familiar with, surely you want gary the cryptofascist
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Mar 26, 2021 00:47
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World War Mammories posted:filippe the opulent was a real piece of work but I don't think he was carrying out any intentional genocides He also folds like paper the moment you start being hard on him, as is fitting for being the third magic/lucky racist you encounter
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Mar 26, 2021 00:56
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EorayMel posted:He also folds like paper the moment you start being hard on him, as is fitting for being the third magic/lucky racist you encounter lol at all the stupid prophecies and omens that come true
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Mar 26, 2021 02:08
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Motherfucker posted:I feel like Rene kinda represents the fascism people are a little too familiar and comfortable with. He is functionally a nazi, right? An old school fascist. Clear and present but irrelevant. You could hold it all against him but what would it matter, hes spent gum. He literally dies of old age practically unrepentant for his many many awful crimes and beliefs. Also isn't he literally just a random underpaid lovely security guard for the union commies at the docks? And his only friend talks poo poo about him constantly to his face? I don't know that this is a sympathetic representation.
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Mar 26, 2021 02:11
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What’s the spoiler policy on the thread? Deaths and stuff I think are kinda a big deal especially for people coming in for final cut for the first time.
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Mar 26, 2021 02:37
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coolusername posted:What’s the spoiler policy on the thread? Deaths and stuff I think are kinda a big deal especially for people coming in for final cut for the first time. Man, I mean Rene dying is about as small a plot point as I can think of, given the utter insignificance of his role in the story. If you're firing up a new old game and skipping to page THREE HUNDRED AND SEVENTY of discussion about it on the forums, maybe there's some personal responsibility there if you get spoiled.
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Mar 26, 2021 03:04
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alright guys spoilers for you people that are going to play it for the first time because of the final cut ------ René isn't a fascist, he is the quintessential reactionary footsoldier. This is a very important difference. The guy is pretty much the romantic archetype of the sort portrayed by romantic literature, that valorous and heroic soldier giving his all for King and Country. Now, compare him with the other guys, the fascists: the lorry driver, Gary and the mercs (obviously). Notice anything? To begin with, René is black. This is an important part why Dros hates him so much. The fascists, being pretty loving racist, wouldn't give two shits about how awarded he is (Gary only gets impressed with Kim because he is a loving spineless cowardly poo poo dealing with a cop). If a monarchist like René has to be shot down like a dog to make space for the New Proper Order of Things, well too bad for him Now, who is his friend? Gaston, a history teacher. Friendly to the Union and a socialist. René loathes and berates him every day, yet Gaston shrugs and they keep on playing their game. Then you get to ask him about the details on the history of the conflict and he becomes rather shocked and sad to realize that people are forgetting what happened there, but only for a moment. There is where René becomes sympathetic, at least by my own take: he subverts the archetype. While René tries his utmost to be a living relic, he doesn't want to admit that he has moved on. He made new friends, including a guy whose ideology is rather opposite than his. He would never admit it, but his job as a watchman on the docks makes him a colleague of the longshoremen - and thus someone who benefits from the union, albeit indirectly. He is a widower, yet goes every day to play petanque and pester Gaston and peacock himself about King and Country being better than the rest. He has gone on with his life and isn't waiting for a restoration to happen. While he is oblivious to that, everybody around him isn't, and they can respect the fact that he was tough af fighting in the war. Does that make him less of an idiotic pain in the loving rear end to deal with? Not at all. If we are to discuss this more in ideological rather than biographic terms, I would summarize as such: reactionaries are ultraromantic while fascists are anti-modern. The fascists want the destruction of modernity while supporting themselves in misconceptions of ancient values that they are really loving ignorant about (e.g. being homophobic while exalting greco-roman culture). Meanwhile, people like René want to oppose modernity through nostalgic behavior, but they actually use that to go on with their daily lives. A rather useful clutch: the past was much better thank you very much, I am old now and the present sucks, but because I lived in that much better past, I am still much better than all of you idiots who are younger than me. Then the masterstroke by ZA/UM comes when you realize that this man, this old black guy, is actually everything that every single fascist douchebag dreams of being: this war hero who did the things they only can imagine doing, celebrated by the glorious past they pine for, is a black guy. How he could not be a smug obnoxious rear end in a top hat?
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Mar 26, 2021 03:09
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dead gay comedy forums posted:alright guys spoilers Spoiler alert When you throw his ball in the sea and he cries, what do you figure that means?
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Mar 26, 2021 03:17
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litany of gulps posted:Man, I mean Rene dying is about as small a plot point as I can think of, given the utter insignificance of his role in the story. If you're firing up a new old game and skipping to page THREE HUNDRED AND SEVENTY of discussion about it on the forums, maybe there's some personal responsibility there if you get spoiled. Hm, maybe his death had an outsized impact on my first play through compared to others? I felt like it was really a moment that cemented the themes of the game and how it was different. I came in with the attitude of the usual rpg - of course I’ll solve the mystery of their past relationship, of course if I choose the right dialogue options they’ll become better friends and give up the bad viewpoints, I’m the protagonist, and then the game spit on me (lovingly) with reality.
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Mar 26, 2021 03:17
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isnt rene just a monarchist nobody takes those guys seriously
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Mar 26, 2021 06:03
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anyways i think one of the bigger points of DE is that there's more to a human being than ideology and that boiling humanity or the course of society down to any kind of simplified analysis disconnects you from the actual lived lives of the little people and turns you into something like the sunday friend
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Mar 26, 2021 06:07
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Also, it is true that the game is critical of communism. But that's a keystone, arguably THE keystone of communism. Critique. Sincere critique, but critique nonetheless, of things in theory and in practise. To think that to support something means to show no critique of it, to never point out it's flaws... Well, that certainly is not any type of support I consider sincere. Edit: Also, Rene is black? When is that spelled out? I evidently missed it.
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Mar 26, 2021 07:07
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Tiler Kiwi posted:anyways i think one of the bigger points of DE is that there's more to a human being than ideology and that boiling humanity or the course of society down to any kind of simplified analysis disconnects you from the actual lived lives of the little people and turns you into something like the sunday friend Agreed - the humanizing of the hanged merc and Joyce are the surest signs of that message in the game to me. Ideology is a human construct like so many other things, and our lived experiences are largely disconnected from it. It’s a story about human beings and all that comes with that. The backdrop of ideology hardly matters to the needs and motivations of what’s in front of everybody.
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Mar 26, 2021 07:09
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dead gay comedy forums posted:alright guys spoilers for you people that are going to play it for the first time because of the final cut Dros hates Rene because he's a royalist and from the same generation as him, which would have put them on opposite sides of the Revachol's civil war. It would be like some old Bolshevik hating a loyal soldier of the Tsar. I don't know if Rene's race has much to do with that. Its just a plain old personal hatred borne of being on opposite sides of a bloody war. The two of them can probably think they can size up everything about the other man's character just on that fact. They're both relics. One of a long dead dynasty, and the other of the revolution that smashed that dynasty. That's why Dros is so emotionally affected by the news of Rene's death, because in a hosed up way they were kindred spirits and harbored the same hatreds. Dros could probably relate to him better than any other person in Revachol, even though he would have spat at the notion. Motherfucker posted:I feel like Rene kinda represents the fascism people are a little too familiar and comfortable with. He is functionally a nazi, right? An old school fascist. Clear and present but irrelevant. You could hold it all against him but what would it matter, hes spent gum. He literally dies of old age practically unrepentant for his many many awful crimes and beliefs. He's a royalist, not a fascist. Fascists often romanticize feudal periods in history as a non-existent ideal to return to, but its different from someone that just literally thinks the king should be restored to the throne. They are both quite reactionary, and can make common cause, but someone like Rene is loyal to a world view which is even more dead and buried than the Revachol Commune.
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Mar 26, 2021 08:03
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Samovar posted:Also, it is true that the game is critical of communism. But that's a keystone, arguably THE keystone of communism. Critique. Sincere critique, but critique nonetheless, of things in theory and in practise. 
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Mar 26, 2021 08:08
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Mar 26, 2021 08:43
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Samovar posted:I don't see race
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Mar 26, 2021 08:57
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i am a moron posted:Agreed - the humanizing of the hanged merc and Joyce are the surest signs of that message in the game to me. Ideology is a human construct like so many other things, and our lived experiences are largely disconnected from it. It’s a story about human beings and all that comes with that. The backdrop of ideology hardly matters to the needs and motivations of what’s in front of everybody. The personal is political. There is no such thing as apolitical.
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Mar 26, 2021 09:20
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I must be totally blind then, cause I'm genuinely not seeing how Rene is black. Or, rather, I cannot tell from his portrait what ethnicity or race he is supposed to be. Edit: No, I guess I tell a lie. I thought his face was in shadow, and guessed he was white by the fact he has blue eyes. Samovar fucked around with this message at 09:44 on Mar 26, 2021 |
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Mar 26, 2021 09:24
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He's clearly dark skinned. Possibly Indian. Whether it's black enough for you is 
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Mar 26, 2021 09:26
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If you came away from the game thinking “hmm Joyce nice and Evrart mean, therefore politics don’t real” then you got it completely backwards from how I got it. That’s the Thatcher-esque take: there is no such thing as politics, only individual men and women.
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Mar 26, 2021 10:52
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litany of gulps posted:Man, I mean Rene dying is about as small a plot point as I can think of, given the utter insignificance of his role in the story. If you're firing up a new old game and skipping to page THREE HUNDRED AND SEVENTY of discussion about it on the forums, maybe there's some personal responsibility there if you get spoiled. I think there's a bit of context here, as if you're expecting an influx of new players it'd be polite. Also nobody is reading 370 pages of discussion on a game to ask a few questions 
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Mar 26, 2021 11:05
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Palpek posted:What kind of cop are you? (click for freaking huge) Do you have more of huge DE art? Displate doesn't ship to my country I have to make do
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Mar 26, 2021 12:34
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