(Thread IKs:
dead gay comedy forums)
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christmas boots posted:I would send Lenin/Stalin/Trotsky a copy of this video Holy poo poo
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Jun 25, 2021 16:49
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christmas boots posted:I would send Lenin/Stalin/Trotsky a copy of this video nice!
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Jun 25, 2021 16:56
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Instead of being sad about China I would be happy about the DPRK. Juche: where Marxism/Leninism/Stalinism/Maoism are revisionist bourgeois ideologies.
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Jun 25, 2021 17:12
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Demon Semen posted:Juche: where Marxism/Leninism/Stalinism/Maoism are revisionist bourgeois ideologies. this more accurately describes Hoxhaist Albania imo
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Jun 25, 2021 17:16
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John Charity Spring posted:this more accurately describes Hoxhaist Albania imo hoxha was the dude that asserted that every socialist country should try their own hand at it, right? and who thought tito was dumb?
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Jun 25, 2021 17:46
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https://twitter.com/commoncrimes/status/745347880383287296
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Jun 25, 2021 17:51
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bagual posted:nationalism is so associated with imperial agression in the us and europe that some leftists cannot grapple with nationalism as collective self defense against these aggressions, it's no wonder marxist movements in africa south america and asia have had national liberation in their vocabulary for ages, as far as i've talked to people leftcoms chalk those up to trying to appeal to the soviet union by ideological adherence but well apparently it's continued past soviet collapse so idk about that The same must be said of the revolutionary character of national movements in general. The unquestionably revolutionary character of the vast majority of national movements is as relative and peculiar as is the possible revolutionary character of certain particular national movements. The revolutionary character of a national movement under the conditions of imperialist oppression does not necessarily presuppose the existence of proletarian elements in the movement, the existence of a revolutionary or a republican programme of the movement, the existence of a democratic basis of the movement. The struggle that the Emir of Afghanistan is waging for the independence of Afghanistan is objectively a revolutionary struggle, despite the monarchist views of the Emir and his associates, for it weakens, disintegrates and undermines imperialism; whereas the struggle waged by such "desperate" democrats and "Socialists," "revolutionaries" and republicans as, for example, Kerensky and Tsereteli, Renaudel and Scheidemann, Chernov and Dan, Henderson and Clynes, during the imperialist war was a reactionary struggle, for its results was the embellishment, the strengthening, the victory, of imperialism. For the same reasons, the struggle that the Egyptians merchants and bourgeois intellectuals are waging for the independence of Egypt is objectively a revolutionary struggle, despite the bourgeois origin and bourgeois title of the leaders of Egyptian national movement, despite the fact that they are opposed to socialism; whereas the struggle that the British "Labour" Government is waging to preserve Egypt's dependent position is for the same reason a reactionary struggle, despite the proletarian origin and the proletarian title of the members of the government, despite the fact that they are "for" socialism. There is no need to mention the national movement in other, larger, colonial and dependent countries, such as India and China, every step of which along the road to liberation, even if it runs counter to the demands of formal democracy, is a steam-hammer blow at imperialism, i.e., is undoubtedly a revolutionary step.
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Jun 25, 2021 17:59
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Nationalism is a brain disease hth
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Jun 25, 2021 18:07
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Demon Semen posted:Nationalism is a brain disease hth
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Jun 25, 2021 18:11
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Demon Semen posted:Nationalism is a brain disease hth I do get your point but, still, with that av of yours this is gold hahaha
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Jun 25, 2021 18:12
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Demon Semen posted:Nationalism is a brain disease hth Furthermore, it must never be forgotten that historical development follows the laws of necessity until the initiative has decisively passed over to those forces which tend towards construction in accordance with a plan of peaceful and solidary division of labour [i.e. to the socialist forces]. That non-national concepts (i.e. ones that cannot be referred to each individual country) are erroneous can be seen ab absurdo: they have led to passivity and inertia in two quite distinct phases: I. in the first phase, nobody believed that they ought to make a start—that is to say, they believed that by making a start they would find themselves isolated; they waited for everybody to move together, and nobody in the meantime moved or organised the movement; 2. the second phase is perhaps worse, because what is being awaited is an anachronistic and anti-natural form of “Napoleonism” (since not all historical phases repeat themselves in the same form).41 The theoretical weaknesses of this modern form of the old mechanicism are masked by the general theory of permanent revolution, which is nothing but a generic forecast presented as a dogma, and which demolishes itself by not in fact coming true. 41The first phase to which Gramsci refers is clearly that of the pre-war Second International. The second is presumably a reference to the internationalism increasingly invoked by Trotsky after 1924, and against the notion of Socialism in One Country; Gramsci is arguing that this implies an expectation of the revolution spreading out from Russia in the way that Napoleon’s armies carried certain of the ideas and achievements of the French Revolution outside the borders of France and throughout Europe.
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Jun 25, 2021 18:15
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I enjoy Luna Oi, she has a bunch of material on Vietnam. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMubOw5H-yo Her dad actually went to the USSR to study (engineering? I forget), and she did an interview with him about it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taDiYqwQZdg It's very interesting to hear the point of view from someone who had a legit official marxist education in a communist country even if you disagree with some of the details.
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Jun 25, 2021 18:30
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It's interesting looking back on how Marx viewed nationalism. Basically he saw all nationalisms allied with the Russian Empire (Slavs, etc.) as feudalist and reactionary, but German nationalism as anti-feudalist against Prussia and therefore good. He also updated his views in favor of Irish independence later on The argument leftcoms make is that progressive nationalism in a globally saturated, imperialist world is impossible now, because basically any nationalist movement is forced to become a satellite of another state. Even the naive Trots of SAlt advocate for Taiwan to be independent when it would really just become an even bigger satelitte of Western capital as a result I look at Zionism and I also feel like even the most "oppressed peoples" nationalism is going to be exclusionary in the worst possible way
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Jun 25, 2021 19:08
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TldrDemon Semen posted:Nationalism is a brain disease hth
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Jun 25, 2021 19:09
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Yossarian-22 posted:It's interesting looking back on how Marx viewed nationalism. Basically he saw all nationalisms allied with the Russian Empire (Slavs, etc.) as feudalist and reactionary, but German nationalism as anti-feudalist against Prussia and therefore good. He also updated his views in favor of Irish independence later on i think a focus on the western world as the necessary and inevitable epicenter of revolution is the one thing that marx and engels genuinely Got Wrong, and that lenin legitimately innovated on rather than just refined or put into practice. zionism isn't really an oppressed people's nationalism - and, on the other hand, you periodically get leftcoms who dismiss palestinian resistance as some sort of national chauvinism which is counter to the interests of the global worker's movement, which is just disgusting to read
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Jun 25, 2021 19:11
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Ferrinus posted:and, on the other hand, you periodically get leftcoms who dismiss palestinian resistance as some sort of national chauvinism which is counter to the interests of the global worker's movement, which is just disgusting to read they are as tedious as Ferrinus says and then some
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Jun 25, 2021 19:16
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"nationalism" as the conservative chauvinist sentiment is, of course, bad; however, as many other south americans will attest, nation building through socialism is huge here, and the left here has been rather successful in harnessing the patriotic sentiment towards that without any detriment to internationalism or solidarity
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Jun 25, 2021 19:29
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dead gay comedy forums posted:hoxha was the dude that asserted that every socialist country should try their own hand at it, right? and who thought tito was dumb? he broke first with the USSR (siding with China in the Sino-Soviet split) and then later denounced China too. he basically ended up saying only Albania wasn't revisionist. and a bunch of western fringe communist parties followed his lead too, there are groupuscules following the Hoxhaist line to this day lol
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Jun 25, 2021 19:57
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John Charity Spring posted:he broke first with the USSR (siding with China in the Sino-Soviet split) and then later denounced China too. he basically ended up saying only Albania wasn't revisionist. and a bunch of western fringe communist parties followed his lead too, there are groupuscules following the Hoxhaist line to this day lol 
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Jun 25, 2021 20:00
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz_THeAXe9w
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Jun 25, 2021 20:29
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Ferrinus posted:i think a focus on the western world as the necessary and inevitable epicenter of revolution is the one thing that marx and engels genuinely Got Wrong, and that lenin legitimately innovated on rather than just refined or put into practice. zionism isn't really an oppressed people's nationalism - and, on the other hand, you periodically get leftcoms who dismiss palestinian resistance as some sort of national chauvinism which is counter to the interests of the global worker's movement, which is just disgusting to read zionism was explicitly an oppressed people's nationalism though, as was liberia. they just both had colonialist projects baked into them some palestinian nationalism is chauvinistic unless we're talking about the pflp. i don't think that means palestinian resistance is any less noble though agree that marx was wrong about the epicenter of communist revolution. otoh i don't think he was wrong that revolution needed to happen in the first world for it to spread rapidly throughout the world. most 20th century revolutions were nationalist movements against the colonial powers with a side of communism, not the other way around, specifically because they were blockaded from first world capital (cuba for example mostly started as a nationalist project)
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Jun 25, 2021 21:47
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zionism was, for sure, and it's no surprise that even the ussr officially supported it back in the day, but what makes it bad isn't that it's nationalistic but that it's a colonial project that enjoys the full-throated support of the world hegemon. no doubt there are palestinian nationalists who are chauvinistic or anti-socialist or whatever, but their cause is nevertheless a revolutionary one because it's counter to the interests of imperialism. meanwhile, an abstract universalism whose chief concern is greasing the gears of global capital is useless to the left i suppose it's true that revolution would have to happen in the first world for it to spread rapidly, but the logical consequence is just that revolution isn't going to spread rapidly, because conditions for revolution are much more fertile in exploited nations than exploiter nations
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Jun 25, 2021 21:59
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Yossarian-22 posted:agree that marx was wrong about the epicenter of communist revolution. otoh i don't think he was wrong that revolution needed to happen in the first world for it to spread rapidly throughout the world. most 20th century revolutions were nationalist movements against the colonial powers with a side of communism, not the other way around, specifically because they were blockaded from first world capital (cuba for example mostly started as a nationalist project) This is just speculation (and I am far, far, far from being an expert on the period) but maybe things looked less grim for revolution in Europe when things like the Chartist movement in England were active?
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Jun 25, 2021 22:10
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Keep in mind that the Communist Manifesto was published like weeks before the Springtime of the Peoples popped off. Marx and Engels were aware that Europe was on the cusp of a revolutionary situation and obv they weren't alone in that assessment. But the '48 revolutions were all pretty evident failures within a year or so and that went for Chartism too. Combine that with all the new injections of gold into the system from the gold rushes in America and Australia and Marx and Engels had to reassess their timescales for any revolutionary potential in Europe after that.
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Jun 25, 2021 22:30
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MeatwadIsGod posted:Keep in mind that the Communist Manifesto was published like weeks before the Springtime of the Peoples popped off. Marx and Engels were aware that Europe was on the cusp of a revolutionary situation and obv they weren't alone in that assessment. But the '48 revolutions were all pretty evident failures within a year or so and that went for Chartism too. Combine that with all the new injections of gold into the system from the gold rushes in America and Australia and Marx and Engels had to reassess their timescales for any revolutionary potential in Europe after that. great post
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Jun 25, 2021 22:35
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yeah it didn't pan out but they had good reasons to think as they did. it's why i'm even slightly sympathetic to trotsky at the time he wrote the transitional program - it really, really looked like this was It, it can't possibly go on like this, right? right??
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Jun 25, 2021 22:36
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Absolutely. I think they had every right to be optimistic going into 1848.
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Jun 25, 2021 22:39
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Ferrinus posted:i suppose it's true that revolution would have to happen in the first world for it to spread rapidly I'm gonna call causal fallacy on this. the picture that it's painting is that imperialistic countries suddenly becoming benign would lift the global south up. the effect of revolution in imperialistic countries would be revolution in the global south not as the result of a positive force, there would be revolution because the various imperial armies and intelligence agencies would no longer be arming death squads
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Jun 26, 2021 00:35
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The Voice of Labor posted:I'm gonna call causal fallacy on this. the picture that it's painting is that imperialistic countries suddenly becoming benign would lift the global south up. the effect of revolution in imperialistic countries would be revolution in the global south not as the result of a positive force, there would be revolution because the various imperial armies and intelligence agencies would no longer be arming death squads i assumed thats what ferrinus' post was saying. if america's foreign presence just up and went away, it would probably happen pretty quickly, like democratic socialists taking power all over LatAm, and maybe even korea reunifying. then a weakened EU wouldnt be able to keep its hold on africa, and the dominos keep falling. it wouldnt need some kind of "permanent revolution", so to speak
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Jun 26, 2021 01:19
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docbeard posted:This is just speculation (and I am far, far, far from being an expert on the period) but maybe things looked less grim for revolution in Europe when things like the Chartist movement in England were active? Engels was a big fan of Chartism and thought it was a step in the right direction for sure. There's a big part about that in The Condition of the Working Class in England.
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Jun 26, 2021 01:36
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dead gay comedy forums posted:I do get your point but, still, with that av of yours this is gold hahaha lol what
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Jun 26, 2021 02:38
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Demon Semen posted:lol what one of the reasons why Mao managed to succeed so massively is that he successfully provided a solution to the nationalist question, by showing that patriotic motivation was not exclusive against revolutionary socialism Amiri Baraka, "Nationalism, Self-Determination and Socialist Revolution" posted:A Marxist is an internationalist, but also as Mao pointed out the Marxist of an oppressed nation must also be a patriot. The fight against that nation’s national oppression is “internationalism applied.” Marxists cannot be so involved with theoretically upholding internationalism that they dismiss their own nation’s concrete national liberation struggle – that would be a caricature of Marxism. This is precisely why Mao wrote this essay, to counter those people disguised as Marxists who wanted to “liquidate the national question.” Lenin fought the same battle with Rosa Luxemburg and the Polish and Dutch Social Democrats, among other Marxists in the early 20th century who wanted to deny the right of Self-Determination as an exercise in reformism or nationalism. which is why I was messing with you; "nationalism is a disease" is a mistake that many European socialists made because they were thinking exclusively in their own terms and context (I am not saying that you are making that mistake, btw). Meanwhile, Mao and many others around the world disagreed enthusiastically with that way of thinking, emphasizing the importance of patriotic and national sentiments as tools for revolutionary socialism
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Jun 26, 2021 03:22
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i don't see a problem with nationalism in general. it's how it's deployed that makes it bad or good, like any other tool.
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Jun 26, 2021 03:32
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are there seriously mfs coming into the dialectics thread saying things are Good or Bad? what Type of Liberalism is that lemme at em
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Jun 26, 2021 03:34
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John Charity Spring posted:he's the trottiest trot ever to trot. was a member of the Socialist Worker's Party and iirc left them in 2013 due to the party's rape scandal stuff He's also, IIRC, uncomfortably comfortable with known omnimonster Zak Sabbath, or at least hasn't had the decency to take his license back.
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Jun 26, 2021 03:38
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Yeah I was referring to the reactionary nationalism which I thought was a given Still should’ve kept the Kim yo jong av tho
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Jun 26, 2021 03:39
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hit me up with some third world troskyism. it must exist
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Jun 26, 2021 03:41
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https://twitter.com/maduro_en/status/1031923400019722241
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Jun 26, 2021 03:43
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christmas boots posted:I would send Lenin/Stalin/Trotsky a copy of this video Oh man this rules. Big fan of the danny devito guy grabbing his crotch around 2:40
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Jun 26, 2021 03:54
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Mieville being a Trot would explain the sexual harassment allegations
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Jun 26, 2021 04:13
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