hobbesmaster posted:A crystal exists, I thought anyone can look into one and get the memories? Pretty sure the full memory implantation thing only works if you share a fragment of the same soul as the person who created it, which is why we only get brief flashes of memory when we pick them all up.
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Jul 26, 2021 20:02
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:Pretty sure the full memory implantation thing only works if you share a fragment of the same soul as the person who created it, which is why we only get brief flashes of memory when we pick them all up. It's hard to know, really. It's how the Ascians used them, but they're also outright Job Crystals and the Council weren't existential appointments prior to the Last Days. Could be they're just Job Stones and people who were part of the Council recognize their own memories (since some memories are evidently soul-deep), could be they're special Job Stones made exclusively to do this, could be they're more powerful from being made pre-Last Days, etc.
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Jul 26, 2021 20:06
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Nessus posted:Estinien owes me, his rear end is responsible for Stormblood. Yes, it worked out, but now I have to put up with Zenos. He jumped on a giant gently caress-off cannon, what more so you want?
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Jul 26, 2021 20:13
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:We also hit him with the thing that when added to that beam kills them for good. And then both he and the narrative treat it as a final real death. He shatters the auracite. He literally tears the shackles binding him from his body and crushes them to dust before nearly overpowering everyone. How am I being obtuse? Ironslave posted:It killed one, one ran away from it presumably out of fear of being killed, and what happened to third can hardly be called being injured badly what with mutating into a monstrosity that kicked off an extinction event and locked him inside his own mind. Even then, just because one survived if they had been hit wouldn't mean that it doesn't kill, or are we to presume Thordan is the mightiest of all beings we've fought for how effortlessly he ate one of the Unsundered? Thordan kill-stole Lahabrea after we weakened the Ascian prime, but I'm not exactly sure how powerful a primal Thordan was. Obviously the MSQ fight with him is a loving joke but I don't really think that's a fair way to judge how strong he was given the Hades MSQ fight is easy too. For the rest of your post, it's like already I said. Looking at the information and what we know from the story, him being dead doesn't add up. He's profoundly powerful, probably the single most god-like entity in the story short of Hydaelyn and Zodiark. Nabriales is gone; Igeyorhm is gone; Elidibus is gone; weird poo poo with Lahabrea might be going on given the Pandaemonium raid but beyond that he's been gone. Meanwhile, Amaurot and the shades Emet made persist.
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Jul 26, 2021 20:21
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"Emet-Selch isn't dead" is some of the wildest nonsense this thread has produced yet lol
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Jul 26, 2021 20:44
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We could have thrown a spoon through him without any sort of Light or energy attached and the way the scene and dialogue plays out I'd still be planning his funeral.
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Jul 26, 2021 20:59
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Chillgamesh posted:He shatters the auracite. He literally tears the shackles binding him from his body and crushes them to dust before nearly overpowering everyone. How am I being obtuse? You gonna address how the beam of light that totally doesn't kill Ascians totally killed an Ascian? The final fight treats it as a fight to the death. Emet-Selch treats his last moments with the gravitas of a dying wish. He's smacked with a beam and a substance intended to kill Ascians at this climactic moment where all your friends stand together and determine that it's you who deserves to live for tomorrow, not them. And even the short story has him briefly coming back from the lifestream to perform his final act. Sure, you can mull over what death is to someone who had previously been treating it like a nap (the fashion in which he did that not being extrapolated upon), but what preponderance of evidence do you need at this point? A signed statement from Ishikawa? Even Elidibus treats it as a final death, and if anyone would know it'd be him. It'd be easy to write Emet-Selch back in (I suspect they might in one form or another, one day) but it's ludicrous to try and claim that really they were secretly trying to provide hints that the deep emotional finality and tragedy of the conclusion was actually a giant trick, especially given the things you're trying to seize on are things the characters are aware of in-universe and would likely be inclined to remark upon were there reason to believe them the case.
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Jul 26, 2021 21:00
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:We also hit him with the thing that when added to that beam kills them for good. And then both he and the narrative treat it as a final real death. In the first two cases we see unsundered ascians die the sequence is: 1. Defeat them in a trial 2. Administer a coup de grace in the presence of white auracite to trap the ascian's soul (Thordan's sword for Lahabrea is the same thing) 3. Destroy the white auracite. For emet selch you defeat him in a trial, thancred shatters the auracite and the shards are embedded in Hades then you hit him with a fuckton of aether. After this Emet Selch is still alive enough to deliver his line and only then disperses. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hu7lNqbiio4&t=58s I think they're right, ES is not necessarily gone however the best you could say is hes trapped in a bunch of rocks on the first?
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Jul 26, 2021 21:01
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Ironslave posted:You gonna address how the beam of light that totally doesn't kill Ascians totally killed an Ascian? It's tough. I don't think what happened to Loghrif is concrete proof Emet is dead given that she was Sundered and enough of her remained in Gaia that Mitron was able to use it to influence and manipulate her. Saying that he's dead because it's written with finality is basically just saying "He's dead because it feels good to me that he's dead", which, okay. I can't argue with that. The proof I'd require of him being dead would be some kind of explanation as to how the aetherblade was able to prevent his soul from simply coming back together, even in sundered pieces, after being dispersed.
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Jul 26, 2021 21:13
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Emet-Selch is dead because he died on screen in front of your own eyeballs
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Jul 26, 2021 21:14
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Macaluso posted:Emet-Selch is dead because he died on screen in front of your own eyeballs Woah
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Jul 26, 2021 21:14
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Macaluso posted:Emet-Selch is dead because he died on screen in front of your own eyeballs I love Emet-Selch, but he is dead. White Auracite is only required to prevent Ascians from fleeing back to the void between worlds. If they are kind enough to remain and get blasted, then it is not needed.
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Jul 26, 2021 21:16
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Jul 26, 2021 21:16
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Chillgamesh posted:It's tough. I don't think what happened to Loghrif is concrete proof Emet is dead given that she was Sundered and enough of her remained in Gaia that Mitron was able to use it to influence and manipulate her. Saying that he's dead because it's written with finality is basically just saying "He's dead because it feels good to me that he's dead", which, okay. I can't argue with that. The proof I'd require of him being dead would be some kind of explanation as to how the aetherblade was able to prevent his soul from simply coming back together, even in sundered pieces, after being dispersed. It's saying 'Emet-Selch is dead because otherwise the scene is written horribly'. And while I can certainly see not trusting SE with dead scenes, considering Nanamo, I think they've learned enough that giving your villain a dramatic death scene in which he asks you to remember him is not something that should be overwritten with a technicality.
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Jul 26, 2021 21:17
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Macaluso posted:Emet-Selch is dead because he died on screen in front of your own eyeballs Its an anime, nobody is actually dead. I could buy some sort of "this is 6/14ths of his soul" or something after you blast him with 8/14s or whatever. Ironslave posted:Even Elidibus treats it as a final death, and if anyone would know it'd be him. I'd take issue with this, Elidibus doesn't actually know much about how things work, hes a primal with room in his mind for only what he was summoned for. Really the best evidence that ES is actually dead dead is that he probably wanted to die after Lahabrea being his only peer for so many eons.
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Jul 26, 2021 21:17
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"Remember that we (I) lived." -A living man
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Jul 26, 2021 21:19
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Terper posted:"Remember that we (I) lived." Emet Selch's ghost yelling at Fandaniel would be pretty great tbh
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Jul 26, 2021 21:21
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The best evidence that Emet Selch is dead is understanding how narratives work and knowing that "Remember that we once lived" would be absolutely ruined by him inexplicably still being alive.
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Jul 26, 2021 21:21
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SirSamVimes posted:I love Emet-Selch, but he is dead. Yeah. That's why Lahabrea survived his encounter with the death beam, he ran away from it. Chillgamesh posted:It's tough. I don't think what happened to Loghrif is concrete proof Emet is dead given that she was Sundered and enough of her remained in Gaia that Mitron was able to use it to influence and manipulate her. Saying that he's dead because it's written with finality is basically just saying "He's dead because it feels good to me that he's dead", which, okay. I can't argue with that. The proof I'd require of him being dead would be some kind of explanation as to how the aetherblade was able to prevent his soul from simply coming back together, even in sundered pieces, after being dispersed. You're setting your standard of whether or not someone is dead on whether or not they have potential residual memories or can have them implanted or reawakened after they die and reincarnate.
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Jul 26, 2021 21:21
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Terper posted:"Remember that we (I) lived." There's certainly no mistaking that he wanted to die. I could absolutely believe that, shorn of Zodiark's tempering by Ardbert's aether, he willfully prevented himself from coming back together and basically committed suicide. Ironslave posted:You're setting your standard of whether or not someone is dead on whether or not they have potential residual memories or can have them implanted or reawakened after they die and reincarnate. Yeah, the way I was thinking of it was comparing it to someone who suffered a traumatic injury that gave them brain damage and affected their memory or behavior. They're still the same person, even if they're changed.
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Jul 26, 2021 21:24
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Yeah, I would say Elidbus and Emet Selch are both pretty dead considering their story had a pretty weighty narrative finality to it. The reason one could argue Lahabrea isn't dead outside of the teaser of the Pandemonium raids showing his face, is because his "deaths" never had the same kind of narrative finality. It was just him continually getting punked, and we never actually got to know him as a character like we did with Emet Selch and Elidbus, hence why no one ever took Acians seriously as antagonists till Shadowbringers dropped.
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Jul 26, 2021 21:26
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Macaluso posted:Emet-Selch is dead because he died on screen in front of your own eyeballs Yeah, but my lying eyeballs told me Laurintius was a cool dude to put on the team, not once, but twice. So I'm fully expecting ES to just pop out of the 13th where *checks notes* blue hair wizards and pre-historic tail having cave women and say "sup bitches" while surrounded with Miqote hos
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Jul 26, 2021 21:28
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This thread has become the Monty Python dead parrot sketch, and Chillgamesh is the shopkeeper trying to convince the rest of us that Emet-Selch is "just resting."
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Jul 26, 2021 21:30
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I'm just going to drop this because I'm being lovely and commandeering the thread lol
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Jul 26, 2021 21:32
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Hell nah dude this is g8
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Jul 26, 2021 21:37
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The Emet-Selch story from Tales of the Shadows has a poem from his perspective at the end - he's pretty dead.
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Jul 26, 2021 21:40
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KirbyKhan posted:Hell nah dude this is g8
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Jul 26, 2021 21:52
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hobbesmaster posted:In the first two cases we see unsundered ascians die the sequence is: There's this cool thing in stories, especially romantic melodramas like Final Fantasy Games, called Dramatic License. He gets to hold together just long enough to admit you won and give a somber dying wish because it's dramatically interesting and ties the story together. This is trying to rules lawyer around his obvious death with "Well this didn't happen in 1:1 recreation of how we've seen Unsundered Deaths before" which is just bad thinking. Also the only other Unsundered we've seen die didn't die to the usual method but just had all his aether burnt up to feed a primal. There's not really in case to make even trying to rules lawyer it that Hades went out slightly different than a normal ascian so clearly it's all tricks. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Jul 26, 2021 |
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Jul 26, 2021 21:53
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I think what's argued about isn't so much whether Hades is dead, he's arguably been (un)dead the entire time. That's why he needs to body jack corpses and hapless victims. The question is whether he's gone, or just vanilla dead w/potential for more ghostly heartwarming appearances popping out of the afterlife for a bit to affirm your worth at a key moment a la Haurchefant and Ysayle. But dead? Absolutely. We see his soul get sundered and pass on to the Lifestream and whatever afterlife awaits between incarnations.
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Jul 26, 2021 21:54
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If we ever see Emet-Selch again it would be in the context of somehow revisiting the story of the 8th umbral era timeline where he and Elidibus are still alive, or we'll meet a baby that smirks and does a strangely snarky handwave at us
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Jul 26, 2021 22:03
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It's weird, Elidbus is sucked up into the CT on the first and his aether torn apart, Laha had his aether burnt up for primal snacks, but Emet just died and finally passed on to the astral sea. Which means he can be reincarnated. Will the baby have all his knowledge from having a Whole Soul or will it just be some kid is born with super powers.
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Jul 26, 2021 22:27
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There are lots of ways to see Emet-Selch again. Time travel plot, interdimensional time travel plot, Emet-Selch gets reincarnated as part of a time skip, Emet-Selch despite being dead knew a lot about death and was really powerful at dealing with souls so that grants him some narrative license to reappear, someone takes his soul from the lifestream for reasons and he manifests in some way by that, Emet-Selch made a really powerful simulacrum of himself that's more resilient and powerful than the Amaurot illusions so some part of him could see the way the new world might go after he lost... They'll bring him back in one way or another if they feel a story is served well by it.
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Jul 26, 2021 22:32
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:It's weird, Elidbus is sucked up into the CT on the first and his aether torn apart, Laha had his aether burnt up for primal snacks, but Emet just died and finally passed on to the astral sea. Which means he can be reincarnated. Will the baby have all his knowledge from having a Whole Soul or will it just be some kid is born with super powers. I don't know if there's actually a difference. The way Eorzeans talk about "soul", soul isn't necessarily qualia, so much as the aetherial body/container of the consciousness. Loghrif/Gaia got Ascian soul-splatted and she reincarnated not only normally but with subconscious soul memory of past lives. Eden is actually a really informative raid series about soul dynamics, since it both implies a soul keeps the same essential nature and that permadead Ascians are just Normal Dead.
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Jul 26, 2021 22:54
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Gruckles posted:or we'll meet a baby that smirks and does a strangely snarky handwave at us This being the after credits scene of Endwalker would be the most incredible moment in gaming history
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Jul 26, 2021 22:57
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so is the ascian corpse-puppet thing just zodiark's knockoff version of the echo also emet is dead as poo poo and the story required it in order to let Daniel and his fans loose, if he comes back it's because the scions needed his help to put fandaniel down, but how in the gently caress that would work is a mystery since the paragons' souls were destroyed (including emet's sorry)
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Jul 26, 2021 23:02
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Rip Emet Selch, my autocorrect remembers you
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Jul 26, 2021 23:07
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KirbyKhan posted:Rip Emet Selch, my autocorrect remembers you
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Jul 26, 2021 23:10
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FAUXTON posted:so is the ascian corpse-puppet thing just zodiark's knockoff version of the echo The Echo predates Zodiark. It was an ability of the ancients.
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Jul 26, 2021 23:16
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FAUXTON posted:so is the ascian corpse-puppet thing just zodiark's knockoff version of the echo It's a possession because Sundered Ascians require crystals of Darkness to take bodies. The process of awakening a Sundered Ascian is sort of Zodiark's version of the Echo though.
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Jul 26, 2021 23:17
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:The Echo predates Zodiark. It was an ability of the ancients. No, the Echo is the ability of the Sundered to remember the powers of creation that the ancients had. It is explicitly a post sundering phenomenon.
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Jul 26, 2021 23:21
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