[Marx] I put on my anti-coat and wizard hat

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(Thread IKs: dead gay comedy forums)

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

The purges would be justified RIGHT NOW!!!

# ? Aug 28, 2021 10:36

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# ? May 25, 2024 22:20

wynott dunn: Aug 9, 2006; What is to be done?

Who or what can challenge, and stand a chance at beating, the corporate juggernauts dominating the world?

indigi posted:

I love communism

# ? Aug 28, 2021 10:41

indigi: Jul 20, 2004; ^{how can we not talk about family

when family's all that we got?}

Enjoy posted:

okay make that argument but don't justify the purges on the basis of events 14 years prior

did you read the post I quoted where they were discussing fear of a fifth column in the USSR? I was explaining why the bolsheviks were worried about it from the country�s inception, not only prior to the purge. Losurdo gives that fear a lot of leeway cause they were afraid of it for a long time

# ? Aug 28, 2021 10:46

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

14 years is still less than the time Afghanistan was under US occupation and the Taliban would be entirely justified in pointing to the 2001 invasion as a rationalization for certain choices they have made or may want to make in the future

For example

# ? Aug 28, 2021 12:01

wynott dunn: Aug 9, 2006; What is to be done?

Who or what can challenge, and stand a chance at beating, the corporate juggernauts dominating the world?

Stalin professor remains Extremely Online

# ? Aug 28, 2021 14:40

Southpaugh: May 26, 2007; Smokey Bacon

Enjoy posted:

okay make that argument but don't justify the purges on the basis of events 14 years prior

In what way would you like us to justify the purges?

# ? Aug 28, 2021 15:34

Ferrinus: Jun 19, 2003; i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

ludo martens's another view of stalin is a good source for an overview of the internal forces threatening the soviet union, which included industrial sabotage, people sympathetic to the bourgeois deliberately joining the communist party and trying to foil plans and get real communists kicked out, etc. what justified the purges was that the AUCP (B) had grown stratospherically in an incredibly short time and was now riddled with some combination of opportunists and traitors. remember, the "purges" were about rectification of the party specifically, not some kind of generic broad-spectrum terror aimed at the populace at large

reposting this quote from kotkin of all people:

Terror had seized the privileged precincts of society�the postmidnight knock, the search and confiscations in the presence of summoned neighbors (�witnesses� were required by law), the wailing of spouses and children, the disappearances without trace, the fruitless pleading for information at NKVD reception windows, the desperate queues outside transit prisons and unheard screams inside, the bribes to guards for scraps of information on whereabouts. But ordinary Soviet inhabitants mostly did not feel an immediate threat of arrest. As the morbid joke had it, when uniformed men arrived and said �NKVD,� people answered, �You�ve got the wrong apartment�the Communists live upstairs.�

# ? Aug 28, 2021 19:00

dead gay comedy forums: Oct 21, 2011

in relation to this, a very good point that often goes unsaid is the specific institutional failures in the party as well in the broader union, due to the inherited circumstances of the russian empire

the okhrana (the secret tsarist police) became a necessity in the function of the empire. when poo poo went down in 1917, the fight against it required a revolutionary organization capable of destroying its machinery in government as well as its support systems in the country, which necessarily had to be also much better at the same job as well: thus came the cheka. the circumstances of revolution, intervention and civil war made Red Terror an inevitability.

however, when it was dissolved, imho, it didn't accomplish at all the objective it was set to do: the institutional destruction of imperial state apparatus such as the okhrana in their entirety. If it had, the NKVD wouldn't have reason to exist. What happened? Arguably, the Soviet state incorporated too much of the preceding imperial one and to effect governance, had to rely on usurped tsarist institutions. It could have been better, for example, to just have the local soviets set up their tribunals under a people's court system to really get rid of the dependency on judicial bureaucracy.

Why? Because a lot of anti-bolsheviks/counter-revolutionaries were part of the judiciary service (as it was a very "higher middle class" thing), but due to incorporation, they became public workers on the party's behalf. Naturally, sabotage and corruption happened. Naturally, the proper communists got wind of that and wanted to fix that.

poo poo like that turned out to be systemic and the attempts to rectify allowed for inherited institutional rot to oportunize failure. When learning more about the subject (was curious about how in the gently caress specific queer repression happened when Lenin and Stalin were very much against it), I discovered that Lavrentiy loving Beria was a loving counter-revolutionary in Azerbaijan and had lied about being a Bolshevik and didn't eat a bullet due to pure loving luck about setting up his execution.

How in the gently caress a guy like that gets to then become cheka and eventually climb the NKVD to the loving top?! When Stalin got to meet the guy, the careerist motherfucker did enough to corrupt the local communist organizations and was head of the transcaucasian secret police. But then it turns out this careerist motherfucker was actually better than the complete loving shitshow of a lunatic called Yezhov.

I think it is possible to see a clearer picture already. The main point of nuance that is missed from "what about the purges" is that by the time Stalin is directly on-hands about it, the systemic causes that justified action (corruption, sabotage, infiltration, careerism, opportunism) weren't fully addressed at the critical revolutionary period. By that time, the Party knew it had incorporated a lot of people it shouldn't have, that it pardoned reactionaries, former tsarist officers, grifters and all sorts of corrupt people that were actively hindering the Soviet state. Because of that failure, it had to usurp some of the same mechanisms of control in order to fight back for survival - and that allowed human shitbags to seize the opportunity to do so. A very "the weapon you have at hand" situation, unfortunately.

# ? Aug 28, 2021 20:15

Enjoy: Apr 18, 2009

dead gay comedy forums posted:

I think it is possible to see a clearer picture already. The main point of nuance that is missed from "what about the purges" is that by the time Stalin is directly on-hands about it, the systemic causes that justified action (corruption, sabotage, infiltration, careerism, opportunism) weren't fully addressed at the critical revolutionary period. By that time, the Party knew it had incorporated a lot of people it shouldn't have, that it pardoned reactionaries, former tsarist officers, grifters and all sorts of corrupt people that were actively hindering the Soviet state. Because of that failure, it had to usurp some of the same mechanisms of control in order to fight back for survival - and that allowed human shitbags to seize the opportunity to do so. A very "the weapon you have at hand" situation, unfortunately.

yes, stalin had to let local party officials take on the role of judge, jury and executioner, because local party officials were corrupt and needed rooting out!

# ? Aug 28, 2021 20:36

Ferrinus: Jun 19, 2003; i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

the purge was a pincer movement by people at the top and people at the bottom against the middle layer of party officials, many of whom were corrupt and needed rooting out but some of which were able to deflect that action towards their own rivals, though less so as everyone got later into the game

# ? Aug 28, 2021 21:09

Enjoy: Apr 18, 2009

Ferrinus posted:

the purge was a pincer movement by people at the top and people at the bottom against the middle layer of party officials, many of whom were corrupt and needed rooting out but some of which were able to deflect that action towards their own rivals, though less so as everyone got later into the game

the entire system was corrupt which is why it stagnated and collapsed. soviet citizens in the 1980s were unwilling to stick their heads over the parapets and save socialism because they were the descendents of the ones who survived the purges by keeping their heads down

# ? Aug 28, 2021 21:16

Ferrinus: Jun 19, 2003; i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

that's so stupid i don't even think you believe it

# ? Aug 28, 2021 21:17

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

what were the citizens supposed to do in the 80�s? launch a revolution to save the revolution?

# ? Aug 28, 2021 21:19

cenotaph: Mar 2, 2013

The Bush argument is particularly funny because three of the people who assisted the case that gave him the presidency are now on the supreme court. Twenty years isn't that long for career assholes to hang around.

# ? Aug 28, 2021 21:21

genericnick: Dec 26, 2012

Enjoy posted:

the entire system was corrupt which is why it stagnated and collapsed. soviet citizens in the 1980s were unwilling to stick their heads over the parapets and save socialism because they were the descendents of the ones who survived the purges by keeping their heads down

Lol. Is all I can say to this.

# ? Aug 28, 2021 21:32

MeatwadIsGod: Sep 30, 2004; Foretold by Gyromancy

Asiatic epigenetic cowardice. You hate to see it

# ? Aug 28, 2021 21:55

elaboration: Feb 21, 2020

lol

https://twitter.com/joolsd/status/1431501155742408708

# ? Aug 28, 2021 21:57

Yossarian-22: Oct 26, 2014

Proyect was an annoying little bitch who became a turncoat after Syria/Libya and I'm not sad he's dead

# ? Aug 28, 2021 23:00

Cpt_Obvious: Jun 18, 2007

Enjoy posted:

the entire system was corrupt which is why it stagnated and collapsed. soviet citizens in the 1980s were unwilling to stick their heads over the parapets and save socialism because they were the descendents of the ones who survived the purges by keeping their heads down

What does this mean? What actions could have been taken to prevent the collapse and secessions?

# ? Aug 29, 2021 01:33

Doktor Avalanche: Dec 30, 2008

Cpt_Obvious posted:

What does this mean? What actions could have been taken to prevent the collapse and secessions?

# ? Aug 29, 2021 03:12

dead gay comedy forums: Oct 21, 2011

Enjoy posted:

yes, stalin had to let local party officials take on the role of judge, jury and executioner, because local party officials were corrupt and needed rooting out!

doing this for the benefit of who might be reading it

the problem happened way before Stalin, way before Lenin, way before the Bolsheviks. the point is that the Russian Empire developed and relied on mechanisms like the okhrana (as well as the "special departments" of different ministries) to command a bureaucracy in the benefit of an autocratic regime that spanned eleven loving time zones. During the Revolution, the cheka had to exist because of the decision of the bolsheviks to absorb the administration to run the public machine, because hey, there was a civil war and a foreign intervention going on as well after loving ww1, maybe we should use what is still up and running instead of razing it to the ground during this absolute chaotic clusterfuck scenario

however, what can be argued from our point in time is that maybe the Red Terror was only partially successful and did not achieve important goals, like destroying the tsarist mechanisms of governance that allowed corruption in the first place. the bolsheviks appropriated and transformed parts and pieces of the bureaucracy whose function was inherently tied to okhrana and that's what ensured that the purges would happen.

this is where Mao truly shines, btw. He correctly identified from the soviet experience that a new state had to be built from the whole cloth during the revolutionary conflict instead of trying to transform it, even if the motive is survival, because it would be an insufficient political rupture that would require a lengthier rectification anyway should the revolution be successful. In other words, holding off the Red Terror because of the fear of too much damage on the structure of government only makes it draw much longer, and greatly increases the collateral damage and institutional difficulties of a revolutionary process

# ? Aug 29, 2021 07:47

Kaedric: Sep 5, 2000

Lenin mentions this in State and Revolution as well; it is a pity it did not come to pass.

# ? Aug 29, 2021 08:52

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

The Tsarist-era Okhrana was pretty small in size and I am actually rather doubt it had a major effect on the Great Purge especially considering it happened nearly 20 years later and after there had already been multiple purges of state security before that point.

I believe it was more likely that in fact during the mid-1930s the Soviet economy and Soviet finances were in worse shape than they appear. The events of the famine had been corrosive to not only the population but production and the Soviet Union's balance of trade and much of the advancements of the second five-year plan were in military production which essentially was handicapping other enterprises. Steel production was up but if it wasn't being fed into war material then it wasn't really having a major impact on their actual economy. (Also, oil production actually stagnated during this era.)

The issue was during 1934-35 there were signs of greatly increased tension in the Central Committee especially between Stalin and Ordzhonikidze and this is where the purge first was sparked. As for why it was so widespread, I think a lot of it was simply the amount of paranoia going on and a bunch of score settling especially versus Mensheviks/Trotskyists that had been kept on. Essentially, the system was under significant pressure and the purge was a way to "settle matters." (This includes Kulaks, Poles suspected of nationalism and other various nationalities etc.)

Also, there was obviously a purge during the Cultural Revolution as well.

Ardennes has issued a correction as of 09:15 on Aug 29, 2021

# ? Aug 29, 2021 09:09

Trash Ops: Jun 19, 2012; im having fun, isnt everyone else?

Doctor Jeep posted:

they went private lmao

# ? Aug 29, 2021 09:13

elaboration: Feb 21, 2020

Trash Ops posted:

they went private lmao

oh my loving god

# ? Aug 29, 2021 09:17

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Trash Ops posted:

they went private lmao

# ? Aug 29, 2021 09:29

Kindest Forums User: Mar 25, 2008; Let me tell you about my opinion about Bernie Sanders and why Donald Trump is his true successor.

You cannot vote Hillary Clinton because she is worse than Trump.

it's sort of amazing just how toxic reformism is to building a revolutionary state. It really doesn't get the attention it deserves. For example, appropriating the logistically capacity of amazon/walmart for socialist cybernetics sounds like a a great idea on paper. And it really is. But the real problem is how do you control a global corporation that is managed by the most devout/wealthy bourgeoise of the 21st century? Are all the software engineers and project managers going to play nice? Probably not. Then do you replace them or subjugate them? If you replace them. With who? And if you subjugate them, with what kind of force?

Thank god for china. Because our best bet is just let their engineers, managers, technicians, administrators, teachers, etc. take over.

The west is a petulant child and will have to be treated as one during the entire course of a revolutionary moment. Before, during, and after. America et al. are filled with stupid loving babies and they have completely lost the privilege to manage anything. They will poo poo piss and cry on everything they get their chubby little hands on. put them in the crib until they can at least learn how to walk.

# ? Aug 29, 2021 09:29

Kindest Forums User: Mar 25, 2008; Let me tell you about my opinion about Bernie Sanders and why Donald Trump is his true successor.

You cannot vote Hillary Clinton because she is worse than Trump.

Trash Ops posted:

they went private lmao

https://twitter.com/BarackObama/status/1261004586359422979

# ? Aug 29, 2021 09:34

Fish of hemp: Apr 1, 2011; A friendly little mouse!

Kindest Forums User posted:

The west is a petulant child and will have to be treated as one during the entire course of a revolutionary moment. Before, during, and after. America et al. are filled with stupid loving babies and they have completely lost the privilege to manage anything. They will poo poo piss and cry on everything they get their chubby little hands on. put them in the crib until they can at least learn how to walk.

Who is going to make the revolution when most western leftists are scared shitless about actually using power?

# ? Aug 29, 2021 13:02