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Proteus Jones posted:All this pearl clutching about how they're absolutely ruining Foundation with zero evidence is both amusing and a stark reminder why most TV IV threads are a waste of bandwidth. I'll always love this site.
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Sep 30, 2021 03:41
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Killer robot posted:Yes, but have you considered that the Mule might be an actual, psychic mule born on old Earth when Asimov conceptualized psychohistory, and repeatedly cloned through millennia to stop the Foundation and guarantee a dark age when equine rules the galaxy? I'd hate that show. NGL when I was first reading the books, that's how I pictured him.
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Sep 30, 2021 03:43
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There's no The Mule on the IMDB page at least.
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Sep 30, 2021 04:02
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Proteus Jones posted:All this pearl clutching about how they're absolutely ruining Foundation with zero evidence is both amusing and a stark reminder why most TV IV threads are a waste of bandwidth.  Gonna leave this here since it's looking like we'll need it a bunch before another episode even airs! ---------------------------------------8<--------------------------------------- 
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Sep 30, 2021 05:20
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https://gizmodo.com/they-said-foundation-couldnt-be-filmed-and-it-still-ha-1847731204
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Sep 30, 2021 05:26
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Proteus Jones posted:All this pearl clutching about how they're absolutely ruining Foundation with zero evidence is both amusing and a stark reminder why most TV IV threads are a waste of bandwidth. Its that feeling of flinching and cowering, waiting for a punch to come. The panic of thinking it could come at any moment. I want to be wrong about everything and for it to be great, I loved these books, and so far its been good. I never understood people complaining about idle speculation in an online forum made for discussion anyways. Is the point to sit silently for a week, watch the episode, then post "hmm that was good, next week then."? Its a bullshit forum for nerds to speculate and bullshit, literally its design.
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Sep 30, 2021 05:35
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Tom Guycot posted:Its that feeling of flinching and cowering, waiting for a punch to come. The panic of thinking it could come at any moment. I want to be wrong about everything and for it to be great, I loved these books, and so far its been good. I think there's a distinction between idle speculation and making up future events to be mad at though, especially when they're based on not much of anything seen so far. One of those can enhance your enjoyment of the show (as long as you don't get attached to the idea that your speculation must become canon), and the other seems it can only detract from it.
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Sep 30, 2021 07:09
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Yeah, I think the point of ~online discussion~ is that there be something to discuss. It's easy to say that something sucks and move on: we have an entire forum dedicated to that very concept! Harder to make that funny and/or interesting. For instance, saying that "the Emperor wearing blue Doom armor looks lame" or that "every scene feels like it was filmed in a warehouse and painted digitally in post" would be valid criticisms expressed in an interesting/humorous way which could indulge further discussion while still allowing for differences of opinion. Saying  imma hate this show if [insert thing from books] isnt handled [insert way i think it should be handled]!!!1 is kind of pointless and the only response anyone can really have is either "sure" or "none of that has happened yet."I'm all for a good hatewatch (see GoT/TWD threads), but can we at least give it one season before we speculate on how bad the next episode will be? Especially if that speculation is going to be a CIA-sized wall of spoilered text that lays out 5 seasons worth of plot?  Is it Friday, yet?
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Sep 30, 2021 08:08
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:Yeah, I think the point of ~online discussion~ is that there be something to discuss. That's my thought too. I mean "What if this potential story development happens?" is something you can discuss. Even if someone else says "That would be stupid and undermine the story!" "I hope this potential story development happens" is something you can discuss likewise. Even if it's unlikely. "I hate this thing that actually happened or was implied to happen already" is something you can discuss for ages even if everyone agrees. "The story heavily looks like it's pointing to this and I don't like it much" is something you can discuss, whether or not people agree with the interpretation. You might even get a reply that helps you make peace with it. "I hate this thing that's barely even been suggested" isn't really useful to anyone unless you're joking around Saturday Morning Watchmen style. Similarly, "I've decided my line of wild speculation is exactly how things must go and I will judge the quality of the series based on how accurate my prediction is" gets needlessly toxic too since. I haven't seen it in this thread, but hooboy does it happen for lots of shows, sometimes right from the first episode. I guess basically what I'm getting at is that having opinions about what's happened in a show and about where it's going are both fine and good, but treating what could happen as though it already has seems to just be a way to upset yourself now or later without bringing much to discussion either.
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Sep 30, 2021 09:34
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Proteus Jones posted:All this pearl clutching about how they're absolutely ruining Foundation with zero evidence is both amusing and a stark reminder why most TV IV threads are a waste of bandwidth. We'll you know if the TV show source material is based on a actual book it's going to be a clusterfuck of a discussion. It's not the way it happened in the the book and here's multiple spoiler text posts about what happened in future books.
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Sep 30, 2021 12:53
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Killer robot posted:Yes, but have you considered that the Mule might be an actual, psychic mule born on old Earth when Asimov conceptualized psychohistory, and repeatedly cloned through millennia to stop the Foundation and guarantee a dark age when equine rules the galaxy? I'd hate that show. The first Foundation book I read was Foundation's Edge since I picked it up at a used book sale, I had only an extremely limited understanding of the original novels, so for some reason I had it confused in my mind that the Mule was a reference to Hari Seldon, which really confused me, especially when I went back and actually read the original books and had to slowly come to the realization that they were not the same character.
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Sep 30, 2021 14:24
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The show creators decided to do a one episode week schedule since they enjoy reading these types of online discussions and speculation.
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Sep 30, 2021 17:18
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I re-read Foundation last week (it had been 10+ years, at least). The adaptation is actually a lot more faithful than I initially gave it credit. Dornick's arrival/meeting with Seldon/the trial is all really well adapted. The prime radiant stuff, from how weird it is, to how only Gaal can manipulate Seldon's, is all there. Also, aside from that, Gaal Dornick in the books is an absolutely nothing character, just a cipher for exposition in the first few chapters and immediately discarded. The drama with Anacreon is all foreshadowing stuff that will happen down the road. The self-doubt Seldon starts to have on the colony ship closely reflects a long conversation Hardin has with his assistant in the book, where he deduces why there are no psychohistorians on Terminus. Not as out of left field as I thought, though Raych murdering him is still a  moment.Second Foundation speculation, the Second Foundation is started by Raych's daughter/Seldon's granddaughter, which in the series mean's Dornick's daughter too. The timeline is off though, as the character will be born after Seldon's death. Has Seldon mentioned the whole other end of the galaxy/Star's End thing in the series yet? Is it possible that gets set up post-him dying. Demerzel being a robot is well established by the novels, but Empire knowing this is new. Also, in the novels, Demerzel/Daneel is a big proponent of Seldon's plans, not sure if that will be the case in the series. mr. unhsib fucked around with this message at 05:25 on Oct 1, 2021 |
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Oct 1, 2021 03:48
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mr. unhsib posted:Also, aside from that, Gaal Dornick in the books is an absolutely nothing character, just a cipher for exposition in the first few chapters and immediately discarded. One of the few things I remember from the books is that all the characters are this. Few have any real character outside of what they do. Though Asminov's writing weren't character pieces, people do things but that's to explore the theme's he's trying to explore in his works. mr. unhsib posted:Demerzel being a robot is well established by the novels, but Empire knowing this is new. Also, in the novels, Demerzel/Daneel is a big proponent of Seldon's plans, not sure if that will be the case in the series. My guess on this is they are aware of the current Empire's reaction to the Seldon plan and realize openly supporting it will just make them a target too, by staying near Empire and supporting him but nudging him in the direction they want the Empire to go.
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Oct 1, 2021 05:18
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Good episode. Things are moving faster than I thought. One thing that I really liked was the Seldon statue was barely shown and just scenery but they obviously took the time to make it look like it was 3d printed, which is a technology it makes a lot of sense Terminus would be using during this time period. It's technology that is never mentioned or shown, but somebody on the production team took the time to get little details like that right. A good sign IMO.
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Oct 1, 2021 06:16
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I don't mind th A plot about the foundation, but God drat does part of me wish this was just a series about the continuing adventures of a the clone dynasty. The loving feels this episode gave for their storyline were drastically unexpected.
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Oct 1, 2021 08:02
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Caros posted:I don't mind th A plot about the foundation, but God drat does part of me wish this was just a series about the continuing adventures of a the clone dynasty. Yeah, I have to give a lot of props to the writing team. The weight and depth they gave to what is mostly dry, almost academic narrative in the books is really impressive.
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Oct 1, 2021 10:40
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I like Lee Pace, but the clone emperors are the worst part of the show for me so far.
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Oct 1, 2021 10:46
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Huh, I thought it was a clever way of illustrating how stagnant and tyrannical the Empire had become over thousands of years. Much preferred over having some blatant voice over exposition or a text crawl literally saying "The Empire had become stagnant and tyrannical"
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Oct 1, 2021 10:54
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I think that this show's desire to be a prestigious TV show that has super dramatic characters who are very grim is the main reason this doesn't feel like it has much to do with the source material, when you think about the books their central conflicts usually revolve around the likable pro-foundation characters fumbling about while the inevitable psychohistoric forces do their thing and the seldon hologram teaches everyone a lesson, now sure you can go the generic grim and violent sci-fi route like... every other recent sci-fi show like the new Star Trek shows (both Discovery and Picard), Raised by Wolves, Westworld, any of them really, but maybe it could have been its own thing drawing a lot more from the tone and the structure of the books.
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Oct 1, 2021 11:14
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I don't like how Hari is pronounced "Harry".
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Oct 1, 2021 13:25
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Data Graham posted:I don't like how Hari is pronounced "Harry". 
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Oct 1, 2021 14:00
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emanresu tnuocca posted:I think that this show's desire to be a prestigious TV show that has super dramatic characters who are very grim is the main reason this doesn't feel like it has much to do with the source material, when you think about the books their central conflicts usually revolve around the likable pro-foundation characters fumbling about while the inevitable psychohistoric forces do their thing and the seldon hologram teaches everyone a lesson, now sure you can go the generic grim and violent sci-fi route like... every other recent sci-fi show like the new Star Trek shows (both Discovery and Picard), Raised by Wolves, Westworld, any of them really, but maybe it could have been its own thing drawing a lot more from the tone and the structure of the books. I'm all for criticizing overly dark fiction, but think it says more about the 1950s that the collapse of civilization and the death of trillions was given an upbeat treatment and less about us.
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Oct 1, 2021 17:06
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I liked the clone scenes best again, and I liked the Salvor Hardin occupation change from mayor (in the books) to warden. The worst parts were the scenes involving the vault and the null field, which really tend to stretch on, how Salvor Hardin is the only one who can approach the vault, and the supplemental romantic entanglement scenes, echoing those of Gaal and Rayche.
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Oct 1, 2021 17:28
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Yeah tons of filler this episode. As good as the performances are on Trantor nothing they do matters. The only plot points this episode are that a) no one on Terminus can read psychohistory and b) the Anachreons are coming. This episode had about 10 minutes of plot relevant material. And it's pretty funny that even though we spent 1/3 of the episode with the Empire we know barely anything about the Imperial interdiction on Anachreon. I can't believe erasing a small piece of mural got more screen time than like "Hey where are we on this barbarian kingdom thing???"
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Oct 1, 2021 20:11
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Caros posted:I don't mind th A plot about the foundation, but God drat does part of me wish this was just a series about the continuing adventures of a the clone dynasty. The Empire royal drama reminds me of the Lannisters: the cast of the that particular family are much more charismatic and interesting than the rest of the show.
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Oct 1, 2021 20:47
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Arglebargle III posted:Yeah tons of filler this episode. As good as the performances are on Trantor nothing they do matters. The only plot points this episode are that a) no one on Terminus can read psychohistory and b) the Anachreons are coming. This episode had about 10 minutes of plot relevant material. All the make-up empire parts are still interest, I like the old loving clone got zapped into ash instead of getting the Stalin/Mao treatment. I would watch that space opera. galenanorth posted:I liked the clone scenes best again, and I liked the Salvor Hardin occupation change from mayor (in the books) to warden. The worst parts were the scenes involving the vault and the null field, which really tend to stretch on, how Salvor Hardin is the only one who can approach the vault, and the supplemental romantic entanglement scenes, echoing those of Gaal and Rayche. Those Hardin magic ability scenes. gently caress that bullshit. stephenthinkpad fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Oct 1, 2021 |
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Oct 1, 2021 20:58
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I don't mind that the overall plot is padded out a bit, and enjoyed episode 3 for the most part (though I was thrown for a sec and thought they introduced Hober Mallow *way* too early). That being said, I don't see this "Salvor has a special connection to the vault" subplot going anywhere good.
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Oct 1, 2021 22:07
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Arglebargle III posted:Yeah tons of filler this episode. As good as the performances are on Trantor nothing they do matters. The only plot points this episode are that a) no one on Terminus can read psychohistory and b) the Anachreons are coming. This episode had about 10 minutes of plot relevant material. There was a lot of world building and character setup. I mean do you expect them to rush through the "plot" despite the fact that the average viewer knows nothing about these characters or the world they live in? They even had the guts to keep big time jumps and switch to a different protagonist in the story. So I don't see how this could be called "filler". They are still setting up major parts of the characters, explain the world to the viewer (Trantor and Terminus) and all while introducing new questions (mysteries) which you can't drop and immediately solve. quote:And it's pretty funny that even though we spent 1/3 of the episode with the Empire we know barely anything about the Imperial interdiction on Anachreon. What "barbarian kingdom"? It shows that you bring in book stuff (we don't know what the status of Anachreon is, whether or not if it can even be called a "kingdom" or is actually "barbaric") . For TV audiences the Anachreons are a faction introduced in the first two episodes who blew up the space elevator and got punished for it (their homeworld destroyed). The purpose of this episode obviously wasn't to already dump exposition in regards to Anachreon because that isn't necessary yet. The important part is to setup Terminus as place and the people (including our protagonist) there. Anachreon is then used as potential "threat" but the audience as well as the people on Terminus are left in the dark about the motivation or reason behind why the Anachreons are there. What does get mentioned is that they were banned from entering Empire territory. Dealing with Anachreon itself and what happened is obviously part of the "cliffhanger". The Trantor part of the episode is used as bridge between the first two episodes and the Terminus stuff and makes the time jump less awkward while establishing the process around "Empire". It also clearly sets the stage for the audience in regards to time shenanigans. They also managed to further explore the "Empire" characters (we are made to emphasize with him/them) and the relationship between them and Demerzel (which will be important later on). quote:And it's pretty funny that even though we spent 1/3 of the episode with the Empire we know barely anything about the Imperial interdiction on Anachreon. I can't believe erasing a small piece of mural got more screen time than like "Hey where are we on this barbarian kingdom thing???" Don't you think that's very dismissive of a deeper point that is shown through the erasure of that mural? A lot of people are quick to complain about too much action and yet we can't appreciate scenes such as that? Not that it is a super brilliant scene but it has at least a layer of depth and was setup in the first episode. Let stories breath a bit before complaining about "filler episodes". mr. unhsib posted:That being said, I don't see this "Salvor has a special connection to the vault" subplot going anywhere good. I kinda understand this concern but at the same time I hope people do remember that the Foundation books have "space magic" and that it's a pretty important part in the story (I'd argue it even dominates the whole story). Possible book spoiler but mostly speculation: I guess in the TV show the vault / Seldon could pick people to shape certain events. So this "special connection" is just being picked by Seldon and the vault is simply super scifi tech that can basically act like "magic", especially in a universe that has psychic powers. You could even speculate that Salvor's resistence to the vault field might show a potential for/resistence to psychic powers and maybe that's why she gets "picked". I'd at least argue that the effect they use + nose bleeds is usually a short cut for "psychic abilities", not to mention the illusions she has. It's at least obvious that in the TV show the vault is more than just a simple way to announce Seldon's predictions. LinkesAuge fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Oct 1, 2021 |
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Oct 1, 2021 22:12
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I dunno, I loving loved it. It DID feel like the story was probably about to grind to a halt when we started spending so much time with the Emperor clones, but I liked their bit too much to mind, and then the Foundation half of the episode moved stuff along more than I thought it would. Not nearly as much as I'd have liked, but I really just want the next episode to watch right now immediately.
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Oct 1, 2021 22:24
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the baptism scene was fun, brother dawn touched by decay the second he was born.
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Oct 1, 2021 23:15
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stephenthinkpad posted:All the make-up empire parts are still interest, I like the old loving clone got zapped into ash instead of getting the Stalin/Mao treatment. I would watch that space opera. I assume that only Cleon I gets to be in a box, Lenin (I guess you meant Lenin) style. And the others all get dissolved. I dunno I feel like they're not giving me time to get to know anyone and I'm just drifting through a load of unconnected and frankly pretty boring set pieces so far. It's loads of really interesting concepts but the way they're displaying it to me isn't interesting. I like the effects a lot, the ships and the locations are great. It's just flat though. It's sorta depressing that it's getting review bombed on IMDB though because of the gender/race of the cast, absolutely gently caress off. Taear fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Oct 1, 2021 |
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Oct 1, 2021 23:31
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How can you think the mural scene was pointless? We spend a lot of time with Brother Dusk as he worries about he will be remembered after he's gone, as he goes around to the Emperors who died before him, has conversations with the never-forgetting AI about how she'll never forget him, and then he spends a good part of his last days building an elaborate mural to the upcoming Brother Dawn to remember him by as he grows up, to then smash cut to Dawn wiping out Dusk's last effort to be remembered on a whim. This was also reinforced earlier when the first emperor's greatest achievement in his final days was also destroyed by Brother Day. It's a whole little self-contained story about how replaceable and forgettable the individual emperors are to the future generations and how they dread being forgotten, and how they are doomed to that fate. It seems like it also likely foreshadows how the process of the dark ages will come about to as future generations forget the efforts and lessons of the previous.
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Oct 1, 2021 23:52
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I was at B&N today and noticed they are charging $17 per book and thought that was nuts. They were also the soft covers.
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Oct 1, 2021 23:52
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Nitrousoxide posted:How can you think the mural scene was pointless? We spend a lot of time with Brother Dusk as he worries about he will be remembered after he's gone, as he goes around to the Emperors who died before him, has conversations with the never-forgetting AI about how she'll never forget him, and then he spends a good part of his last days building an elaborate mural to the upcoming Brother Dawn to remember him by as he grows up, to then smash cut to Dawn wiping out Dusk's last effort to be remembered on a whim. This was also reinforced earlier when the first emperor's greatest achievement in his final days was also destroyed by Brother Day. You know what, I didn't get any of that. I understood him not wanting to be forgotten but I can't help but see them as the same person, so I didn't read any of that into it.
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Oct 1, 2021 23:55
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LinkesAuge posted:What "barbarian kingdom"? They are repeatedly referred to on screen as the Barbarian Kingdoms. I hate you. Yes, I did want to see more about the Empire cutting loose the periphery. Please quote where I said that the mural scene was pointless. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 00:59 on Oct 2, 2021 |
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Oct 2, 2021 00:56
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The next episode title is also "Barbarians at the Gate" (are episode titles spoiler territory?)
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Oct 2, 2021 01:53
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ghostinmyshell posted:I was at B&N today and noticed they are charging $17 per book and thought that was nuts. They were also the soft covers. Jesus, this is exactly why brick and mortar bookstores are dying out. I got the whole first trilogy from Amazon this week for about $25. Feels bad but who can afford over a 100% markup like that?
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Oct 2, 2021 02:58
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Just want to say, this show has some of the best lighting I’ve seen on the screen.
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Oct 2, 2021 03:23
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Phenotype posted:Jesus, this is exactly why brick and mortar bookstores are dying out. I got the whole first trilogy from Amazon this week for about $25. Feels bad but who can afford over a 100% markup like that? Yea, when you could find a used store that probably has a dozen different print runs of the book for like a buck each. Something I was confused by in this episode was the opening, in the last episode they said the Clone Emperors were ruling for 3000 years, but in this it showed Cleon I and then skips 400 years to show what I think its the Brother Dusk of the first two episodes being put out to pasture. That's a pretty big inconsistency. Also, I'm watching on PS4 and the quality is really lovely. Disney+, Amazon, Netflix and Warhammer + all come in in HD, but for some reason AppleTV seems to be stuck at best 720. I googled but not a single solution.
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Oct 2, 2021 03:37
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