|
chiasaur11 posted:There's also Murrue. I guess. I will stand by my feeling that Murata Azrael is the most realistic Gundam villain.
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 03:42
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 20:20 |
|
|
I'm sorry but it's iron mask
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 03:46
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:I will stand by my feeling that Murata Azrael is the most realistic Gundam villain. That sort of argument always makes me think of the classic Sometimes Fires Go Out.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 03:54
|
|
|
chiasaur11 posted:There's also Murrue. I guess. And SEED doesn't allow the incompetent racists to still be threatening from sheer privilege and inherited resources, because PLANT explicitly has most of the giga-wealthy from back when genetic ubermensch were merely a very, very expensive but legal procedure. There's a reason incompetent racists in stories start off with immense inherited resources. It's both realistic and makes for a good conflict. But Earth Alliance is shown losing on the first episode. Murata Azrael's petty, racist bullshit is pretty realistic.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 04:50
|
|
|
golden bubble posted:And SEED doesn't allow the incompetent racists to still be threatening from sheer privilege and inherited resources, because PLANT explicitly has most of the giga-wealthy from back when genetic ubermensch were merely a very, very expensive but legal procedure. Though you would be forgiven for not knowing/remembering that because that particular setting detail is never made particularly prominent in the show. Which leads into my personal problem with Azrael. Given time, consideration, and hindsight I have no problem with him being motivated to try and commit genocide out of petty, childish hatred, he IS pretty flagrantly coded as an American after all. My problem is that his is implicitly the only anti-coordinator sentiment the series actually highlights. He is the primary anti-coordinator character for SEED, most of the other EFA people hate the coordinators but nobody really talks about WHY except "they're evil space monsters". Whenever someone is iffy on the coordinators it's always framed as "they're just jealous", there's nothing like "they're rich aloof assholes up in space", or someone bringing up the massively lethal pandemic they might've been responsible for (another setting detail that is basically not a part of the anime), or someone else bringing up the way they hosed over the earth with the N-jammers (at best we get some vague talk about how war is bad), or someone bring up concerns about the possible problems that might happen from too much genetic homology, or even someone going "you ever read this book called Brave New World?" No, whenever someone doesn't like coordinators the motivation always seems to be based on how pretty they are and how much that person wishes they could be as pretty as those coordinators. That was even why George Glenn got killed in the first place, he was killed by some guy who was really angry he wasn't a coordinator himself, and that is just kind of tiring. I would honestly even take some good old fashioned religious extremism just for the sake of variety and that is THE first and easiest and most obvious motivator (for reason) why a character hates something different from them, and it's totally absent from SEED. Maybe that's a consequence of being a Japanese show, but it's noteworthy by its absence because jealousy does seem to be the only reason to be against those ZAFT assholes. The show really just loves its coordinators way too much to actually lean into the hard parts of the setting.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 06:12
|
|
|
I'm watching Gundam Seed for the first time right now and just finished Episode 11. It's pretty fun, a lot better than all the pissing and whining back when it was airing new would have had me believe. There's still 39 episodes to go, so there's plenty of room for it to trip over its own shoelaces. I feel like people complain about Kira being whiny in the same sense people used to complain about Shinji being whiny. Getting your hometown getting exploded and forced onto a warship at gunpoint seems like something to whine about. Anyway so far it's enjoyable and Lacus owns.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 06:27
|
|
|
Luceid posted:I'm watching Gundam Seed for the first time right now and just finished Episode 11. It's pretty fun, a lot better than all the pissing and whining back when it was airing new would have had me believe. There's still 39 episodes to go, so there's plenty of room for it to trip over its own shoelaces. If you like Lacus already, then it's likely you'll be pleased with where the show goes. SEED's opening is the slowest and the most redundant compared to the original. Later on, the show has more of its own plot beats and Lacus has a more major role. No guarantees, but if you like the opening, you're through the roughest patch. That said, for me Kira feels whinier than Amuro or Shinji because, well, all he does is complain about his situation. By contrast, Amuro and Shinji take action. They quit piloting, steal mechs, run away, and otherwise try to change their circumstances as they confront the cruel world to rise and become legends. Kira, by contrast, just makes noise without action. He's got plenty of cause for being upset, sure, but his being upset doesn't change the course of the narrative. Where an enthusiastic Shinji or Amuro would dramatically change the plots of a lot of episodes, a Kira who was fired up to defend his friends and pilot a kickass robot wouldn't change the course of the early narrative. As I said, though, that's just one man's opinion. A lot of people like Kira, especially in Japan, so you've got a solid amount of company. chiasaur11 fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Mar 11, 2022 |
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 07:28
|
|
|
Jobbo_Fett posted:Does it get explained in a later series and/or movie? IIRC it's sort of that by telephone. I believe the word from either YAS or Tomino is that Char's mask is supposed to be reminiscent of Darth Vader, who is in turn styled off samurai helmets. Somebody around here will know for sure, though.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 14:20
|
|
|
I think that if you watch a mecha show made in the five years or so after the release of Star Wars and wonder if a specific element was inspired by Star Wars, the answer is always yes. After that it might not be directly inspired by Star Wars because so much Star Wars inspired stuff just became part of the mecha genre.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 15:36
|
|
|
To whit, Char's Counterattack, Gundam F91 and War in the Pocket all make very liberal use of the Skywalker Sound effects library, to say nothing of the borderline plagiarized F91 soundtrack. I've always wondered whether Sunrise or Bandai actually paid for a license to use star wars sound effects or if it's just another case of Japanese productions made solely for a domestic audience and they hoped nobody would notice.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 16:01
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZj6PTVtdAs
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 17:25
|
|
|
I got really worried seeing Hathaway BTS for a second, coolish video tho
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 17:30
|
|
|
Gaius Marius posted:I got really worried seeing Hathaway BTS for a second Why?
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 21:35
|
|
|
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BTS
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 21:35
|
|
|
Acronym poisoning. It's why I always instinctively protect my nuts whenever someone mentions Cognitive Behavioral Therapy
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 22:05
|
|
|
Arc Hammer posted:Acronym poisoning. It's why I always instinctively protect my nuts whenever someone mentions Cognitive Behavioral Therapy It's why just giving an acronym with no context doesn't provide much use these days. Too many things with the same acronyms. I mean, GTO in a Gundam thread can mean "Gundam The Origin" or "Great Teacher Onizuka" just as easily. And if you're actually talking about cars, then the whole conversation just gets more confusing.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 22:09
|
|
|
Searching for a CRT tv has gotten a whole lot dumber recently as well
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2021 22:13
|
|
|
#0008 - Winds of War We have to fly incredibly low, but also these planes can't find this incredibly obvious giant flying carrier. *Let's start a riot plays in the background* Just drop us off into occupied territory, no biggie. Now that I'm thinking about it, doesn't Boba Fett have some similar internal monologues like Char? Voice effect and opinion of Luke, that is. Amuro is jealous of Big John. Who wouldn't be? Whoops sorry for loving up the town you'll be living in anyways bye! Oh look a flash coming from behind that we could not have possibly seen!  Cool How loving cool is it for a gundam shield to be thrown straight into a Zaku's cockpit. 1979s anime knew what was up. What a bummer ending with the lady and her kid.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2021 05:34
|
|
|
Boba Fett interacts with Luke Skywalker twice in the original trilogy and I don't think he even learned his name
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2021 05:37
|
|
|
Stairmaster posted:Boba Fett interacts with Luke Skywalker twice in the original trilogy and I don't think he even learned his name The Christmas special, sadly, does exist.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2021 05:38
|
|
|
Jobbo_Fett posted:The Christmas special, sadly, does exist. It still boggles the mind how bad that mess is, like even in Rifftrax form it's incredibly hard to watch
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2021 05:42
|
|
|
Jobbo_Fett posted:The Christmas special, sadly, does exist. Christmas Special? No, that's absurd. Never heard of it. There is, however, a Life Day special. (Gundam has two Christmas special OVA series. )
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2021 05:46
|
|
|
#0009 - Fly, Gundam! Why would you be scouting with a gundam that can't move as well as the core fighter? Or is the idea to send Amuro in the Gundam's core fighter? You'd think Bright would understand the effects of PTSD, but I guess that depends on how recently combat has been a thing pre-current rebellion/civil war. drat Bright and Fraubo are humiliating Amuro and the only way to bring him back to his senses is teasing him with casual encounters with Char.  That sure is a face on that gundam. *Shoots bazooka - Play vulcan cannon death* Okay, I liked the shield/saber combo there. What does Garma call Amuro? Fetty? So when does Matilda die? 13 Episodes from now?
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2021 05:59
|
|
|
Feddie. Short for fédération probablement
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2021 06:00
|
|
|
Gaius Marius posted:Feddie. Short for fédération probablement OOOOooooooh... Right, I'm dumb. Couldn't stop thinking of Fetty Wap for no loving reason.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2021 06:01
|
|
|
Zeon got a false positive: Amurro Rhey's fetlife account. Garma was just profoundly disgusted at its contents. Char did not have that reaction
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2021 08:22
|
|
|
Watched Zeta, post about it: I am ride or die for Kaimille Bidan, and I was from the first episode he's my idiot grandson. The show is good when its about my son Amuro and his old flame Char trying and failing to raise Kamille to be a new type of human. It is bad when it is good cuz this is a Tomino show that's not Turn A and the Mom/Girlfriend meat grinder must be sated. Four is good in spite of this, she's the only dead girlfriend/mom who gets to be anything like an actual character. Its good to watch the child soldier newtypes fling themselves at each other. It's good to see Amuro in a suit, lounging by the pool, wearing a polo with chinos and sunglasses in his shirt pocket. It's good when Char is sad about the mistakes he's made and is dispensing #SpacenoidWisdomQuotes to Kamille, because he knows he hasn't actually interalized these things hes learned but believes Kamille can (he won't have a chance to). The show is bad when the Titans are on screen, which is all the loving time for some reason. They work as villains in an abstract political since; they've become fascist by dent of the exploitative relationship between the colonies and the Federation, the militarization of all society in the OYW, and the Earth elites apathy to spacenoid affairs. All very materialist, no Zabi family coups here. In this context them largely being boring military careerists while also being the worst human beings alive would be fine, but none of them get any development during the screentime they so greedily hog and its just a slog to get through. The action is also largely pretty boring in comparison to 079, or most Gundam period. They hadn't really figured out how to make fights between suits where everything has the Gundam's combat capabilities fun to watch yet. The show is also a lot worse than 079 about connecting the mobile suit fights to the non-pilot ship crew. Fa and Kamille's relationship rules. I love it when the teens can't communicate with each other, unironically. I don't hate Katz. Like the kid grew up in part on a battleship/mobile refugee camp kept alive largely by a 15 year old using a superweapon to kill 50 dudes a week. His dad sent him to the Space War cuz he thought it'd put hair on his chest, of course hes like that. Haman Karn rules. Every second of Char and Karn smoldering at each other over a past we can only infer rules. She singlehandedly saves the last third of the show from the Titans and the only marginally more interesting to watch Sirorocco. The Neo Zeon ships rule, the Quebely rules, in a show with honestly pretty mediocre/bad mobile suit designs across the board imo. I really only love it and the Action Zaku; HiZacks dont count they're just worse looking Zaku IIs. The O, the Marasai, that one Jerid pilots for the middle chunk, and that one that Sirorocco first show up in are all pretty cool too. I really love the exploration of Newtype themes in the show, those topics are hitting really hard for me atm. It's just that all this talk of unprecdented and intense human sensitivity and spontaneous connection, how dangerous it is in This Painful Age, and how is the only way to get *through* and end This Painful Age, is kinda undermined by all the Tomino-brand misogyny. It is what it is though, that's Gundam except for when it's Turn A and these themes are explored without the Newtype name in a much more respectful and successfull way, if in a less dark context. These shows always grow in the heart with time, didn't take that long with Zeta. It's true that sometimes the stars of kindness buried in the heart light up and call to one another like wrecked ships crashing on the waves! ainda_ fucked around with this message at 08:54 on Oct 9, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2021 08:47
|
|
|
chiasaur11 posted:It's why just giving an acronym with no context doesn't provide much use these days. Too many things with the same acronyms. I've never seen anyone actually use the acronym GTO for The Origin outside of the Gundam Wikia; and even there it was only once or twice in the actual article for the OVA. It's usually just referred to as Origin or The Origin. I'd also hope if someone is talking about Great Teacher Onizuka in a thread for another show entirely that they'd actually say Great Teacher Onizuka, rather than GTO; because it's kind of rude, if not just confusing to use an acronym in a context where the acronym's actual meaning might not be known by the majority. The entire point of acronyms in the first place is to make saying something long and awkward easier to say in a context where people will know what it means. It's kind of pointless to use the acronym where most people may not know the meaning, or at least cannot be assumed to do so. Jobbo_Fett posted:#0009 - Fly, Gundam! I'd assume he was intended Amuro to scout in the core fighter, since Ryu does that himself a short while later after he tells Bright not to push Amuro over it since Amuro is probably exhausted. Amuro had done some scouting in a core fighter an episode or two before that, when he tries to fly out of Zeon territory and get word to the Federation that they're in trouble, only for Char to cut him off. Jobbo_Fett posted:You'd think Bright would understand the effects of PTSD, but I guess that depends on how recently combat has been a thing pre-current rebellion/civil war. Bright is pretty forgiving and understanding with the other civilians in the crew, but has real trouble with Amuro and has had since the start where he tells Amuro that he can forget it he thinks he'll get a pat on the back for surviving one battle and instead to go work on the Gundam's maintenance since it's his unit now. The PTSD stuff is just more of that really, and Bright has a blind spot for Amuro's problems because of it. It doesn't come to a head for another dozen or so episodes yet, but it's intentional. That aside, this is the first space war and presumably the first war of the Universal Century i.e. in at least 79 years. So Bright definitely has no experience of one, and even the previous couple of generations probably never experienced major conflict. There have been one or two minor rebellions in that time, but nothing that was sustained or anything. ainda_ posted:Watched Zeta, post about it: Tomino had a much more active hand in the script of Zeta Gundam than he normally does in the production of his shows, but did comparatively little storyboarding. He normally prefers to control a production through the storyboard according to interviews, and that was where he was mostly working during 0079 among other shows (ZZ is the other UC Gundam show he did a lot of storyboard work on). I don't think Zeta has great choreography either personally, but I think what it mostly highlights is how creative Tomino is as a storyboard artist and how good he is with battle choreography, that Zeta felt a lot more staid as a result of him no longer working in that area. It's less that the show hasn't really figured out how to portray battle when everyone has Gundam tier armor in my opinion, especially in the back half where beams mean almost everything can die in one good hit anyway, and more just that the show tried for a more practical feel where a lot of battle is people shooting at each other from a distance and whoever was doing the storyboards was never able to make it all that creative. The finale at least has a bit more variety with biosensor shenanigans. Tomino in 0079 tended to use almost cartoon physics, with the Gundam hopping around, ripping chunks of units to throw at other units, throwing boulders around etc and it lent a lot more variety to things, so long as you don't mind the less plausible way things tended to happen. ainda_ posted:[Zeta spoilers]I don't hate Katz. Like the kid grew up in part on a battleship/mobile refugee camp kept alive largely by a 15 year old using a superweapon to kill 50 dudes a week. His dad sent him to the Space War cuz he thought it'd put hair on his chest, of course hes like that. It wasn't actually Hayato's fault; it was Fraws. Kind of. When Amuro is accompanying the Kobayashis to the airport after they visit him, Fraw tells him that running away from his problems and trying to become a child again won't do any good (Amuro even bites his nails just after this as he's thinking about what to do, which Fa had linked to Kamille being childish in the first few episodes if I recall) and after she leaves, he spots a nearby plane and decides to take it. After which he goes to say goodbye, and when he does, asks to borrow Katz, with the obvious implication that he'll be taking Katz into battle with him. Fraw seems a little unsure about it, but Kika and Letz want to go to and Amuro tells them to stay since their mother will need help, especially since she's pregnant; after which Fraw doesn't really object and Amuro and Katz sneak out to hijack the frieght plane Amuro spotted. More than anything especially anything Hayato did or didn't do, Katz hero worshipped Amuro and wanted to be like him; the big hero piloting a Gundam to save the day. He just never learned that it's not all that glamorous the way Amuro, Kamille etc did. Time might have lent him that experience, but alas... ainda_ posted:The Quebely rules; in a show with honestly pretty mediocre/bad mobile suit designs across the board imo. I really only love it and the Action Zaku; HiZacks don't count they're just worse looking Zaku IIs. The O, the Marasai, that one Jerid pilots for the middle chunk, and that one that Sirorocco first show up in are all pretty cool too. I don't know which Jerid suit you're on about, but I assume the Scirocco one is the Messala. The Jerid unit you're thinking of is most likely the Byarlant or the Gabthley if you're talking about the middle chunk of the show, since those were the two units he was using in those episodes through the 20s and 30s if I recall. He uses units like the Marasai before that, and the Baund Doc after it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2021 14:04
|
|
|
#0011 - Icelina - Love's Remains Icelina is such a dumb name please don't tell me that's an actual name somewhere... Dozal Zabi. Alright we're on a roll with bad names. I love how they say that people live on the inner wall, but it is shown as the outer wall. Ghirim? Well, at least there's worldbuilding and character development. Oh, look, a loving weirdo approaching a woman. "I like to stare at you"   I'M HUGE Wait, didn't the federation supply ship take all the refugees? Amurro gets a "WELL ACTUALLY"; Goon status confirmed. Char has had time to chat with the other Gao's, fly and attack White Base, and Amurro and Ryu are still twiddling their thumbs on top of an aircraft?!  Bright, broken back suffered on White Base crash landing. And the refugees want to get off during a sandstorm in a desert.Literally impossible way to destroy a Gao and suddenly Hayato is here. Sure. Icelina is going to Kamikaze into Gundam? Sick. Lt. Duroda, he lived as he died. A wimpy pervert.OH MY GOD SNIPER! GET DOWN! Wait... holy poo poo she just cratered herself head first into the ground?! They showed that on TV?! loving hell. Icelina took that nosedive rather well, not even a bruise. Jobbo_Fett fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Oct 9, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2021 18:05
|
|
|
Icelina's death, and how much it baffles and upsets Amuro is great, and one of the reasons I prefer the TV show to the movies. The story makes sense without it, because Amuro has plenty of cause to develop PTSD but at the same time I love a lot of the little moments in the show the movies had to cut for time that expand on the broad strokes in the story.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2021 18:29
|
|
|
#0012 - The Threat of Zeon The Zeon are only vaguely the Nazi faction, I guess.  "Amurro your brain waves are low!" Hell, same. Just noticed Mirai's got a hairdo to remind me of her name. Thunderstorms just reduce laser efficiency by 50%, sure. Not quite sure why lightning is a bigger deal than space travel, atmospheric re-entry, or actual combat... Akous, Kozoun and Blue Zaku Man. Really getting some whiplash at how lackadaisical the relationship is between the lovers/partners? Woah, they actually mention battle fatigue! Gundam is trading between Bazooka and Rifle instantly. NO ZAKU BOY, NO ZAKU! These blinders are stupid. You're telling me these space-equipped vehicles (Gundams/White Base) don't have any means to dim lights? drat, Char just getting drunk in a bar alone and talking to the tv. Didn't realize I shared so much in common with him. Jobbo_Fett fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Oct 9, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2021 18:41
|
|
|
Jobbo_Fett posted:Not quite sure why lightning is a bigger deal than space travel, atmospheric re-entry, or actual combat... They've never seen lightning before, because there is no lightning in a man made space colony with controlled weather. Space travel is mundane to them, actual combat is their job as soldiers and atmospheric re-entry is something they're at least familiar with the concept of and insulated from and abstracted by being inside. Lightning is scary lights flashing around them they have no idea of the cause for, because why would they need to learn about it in a space colony when it never occurs there? tsob fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Oct 9, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2021 18:47
|
|
|
tsob posted:They've never seen lightning before, because there is no lightning in a man made space colony with controlled weather. Sure but White Base plays it as if they're going to die, but I would expect officers to at least know... the weather.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2021 18:49
|
|
|
So there's fake physics in Gundam called Minovsky physics. The microfusion reactors that power mobile suits and warships give off Minovsky particles that play absolute havoc with the EM spectrum. Ships will disperse particles from their reactor wash to mess with sensors and prevent guidance systems from getting a lock. When you throw atmospheric conditions like a thunderstorm on top of the issues with the em spectrum being out of whack particle beam weaponry loses effectiveness because the energy lattice that holds together the shot starts to break apart.
Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Oct 9, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2021 18:50
|
|
|
Arc Hammer posted:So there's fake physics in Gundam called Minovsky physics. The microfusion reactors that power mobile suits and warships give off Minovsky particles that play absolute havoc with the EM spectrum. Ships will disperse particles from their reactor wash to mess with sensors and prevent guidance systems from getting a lock. When you throw atmospheric conditions like a thunderstorm on top of the issues with the em spectrum being put of whack particle beam weaponry loses effectiveness because the energy lattice that holds together the shot starts to break apart. Ahhh. Alright then.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2021 18:52
|
|
|
It's mostly Fraw Bo, the kids and Amuro freaking out on the White Base. And Amuro is mostly freaked out because the flashes are giving him PTSD flashbacks to Icelina pointing a gun at him. Mirai is a bit antsy on the bridge, but uh...why wouldn't you be? Understanding what lightning is doesn't insulate you from finding it unnerving to have lightning flashing all around you as thunder crashes.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2021 18:54
|
|
|
#0010 - Garma's Fate I watched this one but apparently I skipped posting about it? Oops! Garma's conquering the battlefield... of love! Wow how convenient that there's an abandoned football field and White Base fits inside it perfectly. Some lady loses her baby inside a refugee ship where nothing has happened for, possibly, days. Char's idea of removing pests in your house is to destroy the entire block. Well, its a plan, at least. When does this Eschembach guy die? Please tell me its as soon as possible. This ruined city and giant robots. Time to boot up Battletech for a game or two... I forgot how much mileage they get from re-used footage.  God drat I like Gun drat. Char is too much of a Mary Sue for his own good. Would not be a fun D&D partner. Oh... Char is crazy. Dang.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2021 19:06
|
|
|
A lot of people failed to realize that Char is supposed to be nuttier than squirrel food back in the day, both in Japan and more recently when it got brought over to the US, which is why The Origin is a lot more blunt and explicit that Char is a manipulative psychopath and being around him is not good for ones life expectancy even if you're one of the people he likes
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2021 20:30
|
|
|
Jobbo_Fett posted:#0010 - Garma's Fate That's a real stadium, by the way. The White Base was just hanging out in the war ravaged city of Seattle. (As for Bright, it's mentioned in episode 1 that this was his first time in space. He's very, very green.)
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2021 21:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 20:20 |
|
|
Depending on who you ask the battle against Garma either takes place in Seattle or New Yark. Not a typo. Most people agree that it's meant to be the ruins of Seattle because the White Base's flight path makes absolutely no sense otherwise. Edit. Actually wasn't Icelina's dad the mayor of New Yark? Did Garma chase White Base across the continental US? Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Oct 9, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2021 21:30
|
|