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cr0y posted:I still think there is an opportunity for Trump to somehow shatter the GOP into a million little pieces right before 24. Hawley scares me. Hawley scares me a lot. Heck Yes! Loam! posted:You start out in 2016 by saying, “Nazi, Nazi, Nazi.” By 2024 you can’t say “Nazi”—that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, Critical Race Theory, Vaccine Mandates, and all that stuff, and you’re getting so abstract. Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, liberals get hurt worse than conservatives.… “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the vaccine thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “Nazi, Nazi.” this is nonsense.
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Nov 8, 2021 19:40
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cr0y posted:I still think there is an opportunity for Trump to somehow shatter the GOP into a million little pieces right before 24. -Blackadder- fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Nov 8, 2021 |
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Nov 8, 2021 19:41
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:You start out in 2016 by saying, “Nazi, Nazi, Nazi.” By 2024 you can’t say “Nazi”—that hurts you, backfires. The left started chanting Nazi circa 1992 in my experience, which severely weakened their ability to critique Trump.
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Nov 8, 2021 19:42
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Peter Daou Zen posted:1/6 happened but to pretend like it was a coup or attempted coup is offensive to you know, people who suffered through real coups in other countries. Actual fascism. I mean what's the world for encouraging your supporters to charge and attack people at the capital because they are about to validate an election for your enemy?
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Nov 8, 2021 19:45
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An inept coup attempt doesn't make it any less of a coup attempt
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Nov 8, 2021 19:47
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Peter Daou Zen posted:1/6 happened but to pretend like it was a coup or attempted coup is offensive to you know, people who suffered through real coups in other countries. Actual fascism. Get out of here with this poo poo. Trump tried to seize control of the Presidency by directing people in his administration to throw out the results of an election he lost. Simultaneously, he encouraged people to come to the capitol armed and help him do it. He didn't get enough crazies and a few key people knew it would be a bridge too far. That doesn't mean it wasn't an attempted coup. It absolutely was.
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Nov 8, 2021 19:49
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socialsecurity posted:I mean what's the world for encouraging your supporters to charge and attack people at the capital because they are about to validate an election for your enemy? What’s the word for supporting and rewarding the police that actively opened doors and removed gates to allow the attack to happen in the first place? https://www.politico.com/news/2021/05/20/house-congress-capitol-security-489792
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Nov 8, 2021 19:49
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socialsecurity posted:I mean what's the world for encouraging your supporters to charge and attack people at the capital because they are about to validate an election for your enemy? Just got word back from the OAS after I asked them this and the word you're looking for is "freedomdemocracy" apparently. Funny world out there Anyway I guess the 1/6 stuff is yet another thing that dragged on for so long with zero progress that I tuned it out, is Bannon in jail yet or whatever? virtualboyCOLOR posted:What’s the word for supporting and rewarding the police that actively opened doors and removed gates to allow the attack to happen in the first place? This is also a feature of many legitimate and widely recognized coups tho
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Nov 8, 2021 19:50
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Majorian posted:
This is a much bigger issue than people want to admit in the power structures of the democratic party. It's a jobs program for their kids, and a foot in the door of ivy league institutions. Even if you had someone equivalent of Atwater on the left driving the messaging, it would be undermined by countless PACS from the moneyed class. Epic High Five posted:We're just living through the regular southern strategy unfortunately Yeah, but there's this weird inversion of it where the democrats can't actually call something what it is, and have to dance around it by using coded language. Sure, Trump is a fascist, but calling him one outright is going to hurt you more than it helps. The people that voted for improbably won;t respond well to being called a facist despite how true it is. That's just free motivation to your opponent's political base.
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Nov 8, 2021 19:51
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Yeah, it would be a very different conversation if the Dems had a left-of-center version of Atwater. Alas, the Dem consultant industry is what it is: sinecure jobs for the failsons and faildaughters of those in power.
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Ok so all those people are being locked up for a super long time and the Democrats are spearheading that because they recognize the threat this is, that Trump's supporters are going to start mass killings, right?
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Nov 8, 2021 19:51
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:Get out of here with this poo poo. Trump tried to seize control of the Presidency by directing people in his administration to throw out the results of an election he lost. Simultaneously, he encouraged people to come to the capitol armed and help him do it.
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Nov 8, 2021 19:51
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TheDisreputableDog posted:The left started chanting Nazi circa 1992 in my experience, which severely weakened their ability to critique Trump. I don't remember there being any coordinated attempt to run a campaign arguing that George H.W. Bush's policies were in line with the German National Socialist party. Most of the anti-Bush campaigns were "he's a nice guy, but he just doesn't get it and can't relate because he is a blue-blood/career politician." Unless you mean Pat "We must secure an America for white children and western civilization" Buchanan. In that case, I don't think it is entirely unfair.
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Nov 8, 2021 19:52
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:Yes. Trump is a straight up wannabe dictator who overtly tried to overturn an election and seize control of the government. LOL at people getting offended at calling his active supporters anything other than what they are. So you’ve moved the goalposts from “Trump voters” to “active supporters”, which is a much more reasonable position.
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Nov 8, 2021 19:54
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VitalSigns posted:Sounds like this Trump guy committed serious crimes and should be in prison, if the ruling party genuinely believes what you are saying he should be locked up any day now... The lack of consequences for the organizers and associated leaders, the simultaneous campaign to arrest and prosecute the little people (none of whom who have been accused of treason or sedition), until it was out of public's attention span THEN trying run campaigns on it just shows how out-of-touch and inept the democrats are. They flubbed the entire lead-up and response. They refuse to recognize the seeds they have helped sow. But police have more money now, so that's good.
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Nov 8, 2021 19:55
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Gumball Gumption posted:Ok so all those people are being locked up for a super long time and the Democrats are spearheading that because they recognize the threat this is, that Trump's supporters are going to start mass killings, right? I don't think Congress decides individual prison sentences especially of their political enemies or that anyone would want them to have that power, is that what you are proposing here?
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Nov 8, 2021 19:58
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New CNN poll is out with a record low approval rating for Biden and a record high disapproval rating "back up." Caveat: The sample was taken among adults, not even culled to registered voters.
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Nov 8, 2021 19:59
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TheDisreputableDog posted:So you’ve moved the goalposts from “Trump voters” to “active supporters”, which is a much more reasonable position. yeah that's fair but let's not get too concerned about the 1% of Trump voters that reacted to what he did on Jan 6th with shock He's still the most popular Republican ever, among Republicans and his current approval rating among Americans at large is within the MoE of our current dipshit-but-not wannabe dictator President. There's not a huge difference.
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Nov 8, 2021 20:00
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Willa Rogers posted:Has there been any time in history in which voter sentiment rose or fell (or when even just economic sentiments did the same) based on the GDP, particularly since it includes, like, the stratospheric cost of U.S. healthcare? It did when the republicans tax plan got a 2 quarter bump. But in the end I am not talking about one measure improving but likely several. Having good jobs numbers overall but bad or unimpressive GDP growth probably has a canceling out effect. If every measure is improving to some degree then that could create more substantial change in the public on the state of the economy. We know GDP numbers will be good because government spending is increasing, it seems likely jobs overall continue to go up because of vaccine rollouts for kids, boosters and general economic opening. The x-factors are if inflation is controlled and if supply lines are somewhat ameliorated. The holiday season may not be the disaster republicans are hoping and dreaming for. Willa Rogers posted:New CNN poll is out with a record low approval rating for Biden and a record high disapproval rating "back up." Poll taken November 1-4: Pre-infrastructure passing and of course BBB isn't being scored yet or passed either. This poll actually covers sentiment based on Virginia election news. 36% of respondents said economy is #1 issue meaning those bills will be important to future attitudes toward Biden. Combined nearly 60% of all voters are focused on the economy and covid. That's actually wild, every other issue is a pet issue. Shammypants fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Nov 8, 2021 |
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Nov 8, 2021 20:05
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socialsecurity posted:I don't think Congress decides individual prison sentences especially of their political enemies or that anyone would want them to have that power, is that what you are proposing here? Hmm, good point. Rule of law is important or we will just become the monster ourselves. So, we can all agree a portion of the population want to violently take over the government and start killing anyone they think doesn't belong but boy it sure seems hard to actually get anyone to do anything about it. If only they were all smoking crack or something, that would get everyone moving. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 8, 2021 20:07
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Gumball Gumption posted:Hmm, good point. Rule of law is important or we will just become the monster ourselves. So, we can all agree a portion of the population want to violently take over the government and start killing anyone they think doesn't belong but boy it sure seems hard to actually get anyone to do anything about it. If only they were all smoking crack or something, that would get everyone moving. Can you not be an rear end in a top hat for 5 seconds and answer an honest question? Do you think Congress should have the power to decide how long their political enemies go to prison for, like directly influence ongoing trials?
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Nov 8, 2021 20:11
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socialsecurity posted:Can you not be an rear end in a top hat for 5 seconds and answer an honest question? Do you think Congress should have the power to decide how long their political enemies go to prison for, like directly influence ongoing trials? Please follow the rules, - Keep it civil. US politics suck, but we don't need to get down to name calling here. And no, I don't think they should. I just think there is a lot of dissonance between Trump supporters are Nazis who are going to kill us and how that is handled. Either we're on the edge of a crisis that no one is equipped to handle or even wants to OR the rhetoric is being used to drive fear for an alternative purpose. I personally think it's the first but it's not surprising others think it's the second.
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Nov 8, 2021 20:19
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I wonder if this will have any impact on a certain segment of anti-vax folks. Regeron's newest version of their anti-body treatment can have "vaccine-like" effects if you get an injection every 3 months. Otherwise, I don't know how the U.S. will ever get close to the 90+% rate that some countries have managed to hit. https://twitter.com/mitchellreports/status/1457761695087185931
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Nov 8, 2021 20:20
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Gumball Gumption posted:Please follow the rules, - Keep it civil. US politics suck, but we don't need to get down to name calling here. At what point is taking a simple question and going out of the way to misread it to go on some rant against them civil? So you don't think Congress should be able to set prison sentences on individual trials, then why are you complaining about how they aren't imposing harsh sentences on those from 1/6?
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Nov 8, 2021 20:24
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socialsecurity posted:Can you not be an rear end in a top hat for 5 seconds and answer an honest question? Do you think Congress should have the power to decide how long their political enemies go to prison for, like directly influence ongoing trials? The wheels of justice started to turn pretty fast for their "political enemies" that aren't rich or in positions of power/influence. The leaders are the ones that deserve the attention of the justice system and congress. They definitely can directly influence the justice system if they choose, even if it's just making a phone call. Same with people part of executive admins and judicial offices. It doesn't necessarily mean they're ordering cops to arrest people or deciding sentences- they have a lot of power but when it comes to using it in a way that might actually achieve something, they can't seem to find the levers. And when you don't use it, you lose it (I am referring to the timing, not for them to go hog wild investigating everything about everyone ever, which, btw, they can do as a matter of law and have done in the past). Congress gets to decide to investigate basically anything. Their purview is anything, whether there is precedent for it or any legitimacy behind it at all. It took them half a year to start an investigation into 1/6, and could only get a committee for in the House, which has the same neutered air as the impeachment proceedings with somehow even less people paying heed to it. They can compel people to testify or hold people in contempt (and the punishments) and so far it's amounted to not much. Trump's people made them look even more frightened to do anything than usual and neither perception nor reality has gotten better.
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Nov 8, 2021 20:27
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socialsecurity posted:At what point is taking a simple question and going out of the way to misread it to go on some rant against them civil? So you don't think Congress should be able to set prison sentences on individual trials, then why are you complaining about how they aren't imposing harsh sentences on those from 1/6? D&D is supposed to be a fun place where we can discuss politics like friends, not fling around insults. If you can't talk like an adult there are lots of places to post about politics on SA. I don't think Congress should be unilaterally locking up political prisoners. I just also don't know what we do about all the Nazis I'm being told want to take over the government.
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Nov 8, 2021 20:32
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There's a focus group going of women who voted Northam -> Biden -> Youngkin in Virginia. Run by Georgetown Law and a political opinion data group. Group is disproportionately white and suburban/rural. quote:The focus group is (unsurprisingly given that we are in the suburbs and talking to Youngkin voters) more white than the Commonwealth population. 79% are white, 11% are Black, 6% are Latino, 4% are Asian. These women come from all over the Commonwealth. 50% are from NOVA, 20% are from Hampton Roads, 15% are from Richmond, 15% are from other parts of the Commonwealth. Here's the highlights: quote:We’re starting out with some temperature checks to see where these voters are more generally before we dig into what drove them to Youngkin. 64% disapprove of Biden. 86% don’t want Trump to run again. 79% agree with the statement “Trump is a racist” quote:We start out by asking what the most pressing issue is facing these women. One volunteers gas prices. Everyone shakes their heads in agreement. quote:We ask what is the primary factor negatively impacting their finances. 76% say gas prices are. This sorta naturally brings us to inflation. One of the Black women says her grocery bills have more than doubled (no way to fact check this and seems dubious but still her impression). quote:We ask who here agrees that Glenn Youngkin is very similar or somewhat similar to Donald Trump. Not one of these women agrees. McAuliffe’s attacks totally fell flat here. quote:91% of these women say they trust Youngkin more on education. quote:We ask how much input parents should have into their children’s school curriculum? quote:One of the Latino women speaks up and says: "They asked us to do all this work for months (referring to COVID) and then he says it's none of our business now." quote:Another woman from Fairfax speaks up on teacher's union: "They would keep schools closed forever if they could. They'd keep our kids online until the 7th booster." quote:We ask: Should schools have been closed during the COVID-19 pandemic? quote:We ask if anyone here knows what CRT is. One woman says “It teaches our kids America is defined by the worst parts of its past.” quote:One of the Black women speaks up and says: "Our kids should be taught about slavery and all of that awfulness but America is also a good country and that's what I want my kids to learn." quote:We ask people what there view of critical race theory is: quote:We ask: is critical race theory being taught in Virginia schools? quote:We ask: What is you opinion of America? quote:We ask do you think Democrats share your values? One woman says “They fight for the right things and I usually vote for them but they believe some crazy things. Sometimes I feel like if I don't know the right words for things they think I am a bigot." quote:We ask: Which party has better policy proposals? quote:We ask: Which party has cultural values closer to yours? quote:We ask an open ended why did you vote for Glenn Younkin? Some of the responses. quote:Why did you vote for Glenn Younkin? quote:Okay and last question: If Democrats had passed the Bipartisan Infrastructure Package before the election would you have considered changing your vote? https://twitter.com/dannybarefoot/status/1457774253810458634 Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Nov 8, 2021 |
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Nov 8, 2021 20:34
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Gumball Gumption posted:Ok so all those people are being locked up for a super long time and the Democrats are spearheading that because they recognize the threat this is, that Trump's supporters are going to start mass killings, right? I mean if "Is the dem leadership taking appropriate precautions to avert disaster?" is the criteria for if a problem is real or not then I am glad to find climate change isn't actually a problem.
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Nov 8, 2021 20:34
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I was going to say "I wouldn't mind Congress incidentally happening to authorize more FBI personnel for anti-domestic-terrorism purposes" but 1) that might have unintended consequences, which isn't necessarily a dealbreaker in the face of future ones-six and 2) actually I dimly recall they might actually have done that.
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Nov 8, 2021 20:35
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"the president of the teacher's union hates kids" certainly is a statement 
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Nov 8, 2021 20:36
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Epic High Five posted:I definitely do "not see" how this conversation is still chugging along I laughed FLIPADELPHIA posted:Yes. Trump is a straight up wannabe dictator who overtly tried to overturn an election and seize control of the government. LOL at people getting offended at calling his active supporters anything other than what they are. Chloe Jessica posted:attempting to restrict the definition of Nazi is a very common tactic of people who would find it very beneficial to not be labeled Nazis. maybe you didn't know that. Phew I'm really glad I didn't get offended nor did I call to restrict the definition of Nazi to very specific people, but instead continue pointing out that shouting "BUT THEYRE FACISTS" is a piss-poor replacement for running an actual campaign or actually doing things. the problem isn't the posters use of the word Nazi (though, in conjunction with with earlier post, it does point to the posters rather grim assessment that everyone in the country is either a Nazi or too stupid to deserve help) its that calling people Nazis and then doing gently caress all about it is useless. Actually the problem is probably that poster who seems to think Kristallnacht is around the corner and also that people are too stupid to be helped
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Nov 8, 2021 20:37
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Republicans are all Nazis who perpetrated the most heinous attack on American democracy since the Civil War. Let's form an investigatory committee with no powers so the Nazis will agree to take part, we want the Republican Party to be strong so we can do bipartisanship. Meanwhile the DOJ will go after random idiots who got radicalized on Facebook and leave the ringleaders alone because they are our friends and colleagues.
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Nov 8, 2021 20:37
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Darkrenown posted:I mean if "Is the dem leadership taking appropriate precautions to avert disaster?" is the criteria for if a problem is real or not then I am glad to find climate change isn't actually a problem. Health care Housing Voting rights Inflation Household income The Dems are generally bad at doing anything to help prevent the disaster they hyperventilate about during presidential elections. VitalSigns posted:Republicans are all Nazis who perpetrated the most heinous attack on American democracy since the Civil War. Let's form a committee with no powers so the Nazis will agree to take part, we want the Republican Party to be strong so we can do bipartisanship This. The amount of rug pulled from underneath voters could cover the ocean.
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Nov 8, 2021 20:37
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quote:Okay and last question: If Democrats had passed the Bipartisan Infrastructure Package before the election would you have considered changing your vote? All that discourse for nothing
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Nov 8, 2021 20:49
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Gumball Gumption posted:Hmm, good point. Rule of law is important or we will just become the monster ourselves. So, we can all agree a portion of the population want to violently take over the government and start killing anyone they think doesn't belong but boy it sure seems hard to actually get anyone to do anything about it. If only they were all smoking crack or something, that would get everyone moving. This probation sucks rear end
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Nov 8, 2021 20:49
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:There's a focus group going of women who voted Northam -> Biden -> Youngkin in Virginia. Interesting results, especially the values-voting siding with the GOP, and the "schools stayed closed too long" stuff. McAuliffe's boneheaded statement probably hit harder against him after parents had been supervising at-home education for the prior year and a half than it would have otherwise. Also interesting that the infrastructure bill's passage wouldn't have impacted their votes (take note, polling critics).
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Nov 8, 2021 20:50
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Yeah that tracks what I was thinking (which doesn't necessarily make it correct of course). I think some people were claiming no one cared about schools anymore but yeah no, it was the biggest impact to most parents lives from the pandemic and no one was happy with how it was handled in Virginia.
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Nov 8, 2021 20:52
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Peter Daou Zen posted:If Trumps a dictator, he did a pretty bad job at “seizing control” and overturning the election. If his people are Nazis , then the Democrats are collaborators for not prosecuting.
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Nov 8, 2021 20:53
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Cow Bell posted:I laughed this was not at all clear in your original post. i apologize for misreading you. regardless, i think here in this forum we should call them what they are. i can't speak for anyone else, but i personally am not a Democrat seeking office, so i have nothing to lose by saying so, anyway. "Democrats have a messaging problem" isn't exactly a hot take, either... not that that makes it any less true
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Nov 8, 2021 20:54
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Kraftwerk posted:100% this. You're not gonna get votes for your party if you're running a rotating tap of forgettable pro-politicians who nobody in the region knows or trusts. The brain trust in the Democratic party comes from New England socially liberal, economically conservative think tanks and business leaders who have absolutely completely out of touch with the communities they run in. A student activist who got gassed in the occupy wall street protests will have better luck running in a working class New York district than they would running in Kentucky or Georgia (outside maybe the districts where the major college is). To add to what's been said. Dems keep lamenting that unlike Republicans we're stuck with a complex, nuanced message that doesn't have the benefit of getting boosted by weaving in racial grievance. Essentially, that we're forced to fight with one arm tied behind our backs while the GOP is able to get in the mud and make gains. But this isn't entirely true. Despite being saddled with a complex, non-racist message, the Dems still have good options to go on the offensive and take the gloves off. Economic populism/Class Warfare is still one of the most effective, accessible messages in politics, it also has the added benefit of being able to be re-skinned to avoid anti-marxist push back in the south. The classic example of this is Huey Long. His economic populism was insanely effective and Long was a genuine threat to FDR before he was assassinated. Marxists on Huey Long posted:I was under the impression that he was a right wing populist based on his opposition to President Roosevelt as well as the fact that contemporary Communists and Socialists didn’t like him very much. But after reading more in depth about his actual policies as governor of Louisiana he was clearly on the left. Not a Communist or even a socialist but clearly a progressive, left wing populist. He opposed the Klan, fought against Louisiana’s elite bourgeois families, squeezed Standard Oil in order to provide money for extensive social programs, engaged in major public works projects and was an anti imperialist(made speeches in the Senate denouncing US interventions in Latin America). Not uncritical of him by any means(he was an anti communist) but kind of remarkable that someone with his politics wielded so much power in the South in the 1930’s. What do people here think of Long and is there anything American socialists can learn from his ‘Share the Wealth’ movements successes and failures? quote:loving based as hell. Read White's Kingfish, he was the real deal. Not perfect by any means but his Share Our Wealth program was far, far more left than anything put forth by the Democrats since, and actually received more votes than any legislation like that would ever receive today -- for when people tell you today's Dem platform is "the most progressive platform of all time. -Blackadder- fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Nov 8, 2021 |
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Nov 8, 2021 20:55
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It'd be interesting if parents had a new respect for teachers and schooling and this led to teachers getting paid more, more in-classroom help, more money for education across the board, higher standards, a longer school year, well-funded before and after school programs
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Nov 8, 2021 20:55
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