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Sedisp posted:That's not really what the poster was saying. Nor is the issue they're speaking about limited to Australian schools. Then please explain it to me in a way that doesn't sound terrible.
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Nov 16, 2021 10:38
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:Then please explain it to me in a way that doesn't sound terrible. Putting the onus of oppression on groups that are also being ground into dust (though obviously less so than minority groups) is a very good way to get people to stop listening to what you have to say. And so far the way we have decided to educate people on this has been inundated with grifters.
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Nov 16, 2021 10:53
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Mystic Mongol posted:The chuds don't forgive failure... Unless you're Trump, it seems.
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Nov 16, 2021 11:02
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Sedisp posted:Putting the onus of oppression on groups that are also being ground into dust (though obviously less so than minority groups) is a very good way to get people to stop listening to what you have to say. And so far the way we have decided to educate people on this has been inundated with grifters. But a big part of systematic change is acknowledging that you're a part of that system, becoming more aware of your actions and behaviors, and then changing those actions and behaviors moving forward. The onus of oppression isn't on one particular group, it's on everyone, and nothing is going to change unless it's openly and actively discussed. Yeah, it sucks to hear "Your life is hard, but it'd be even harder if you were female/non-white/gay/trans/disabled" but it's also true and it sucks less to hear once you realize "Oh, this isn't being told to me in order to invalidate my own problems, but rather as a way to illustrate the ways in which others are suffering that are invisible to me because of my own lived experiences." Then it starts to feel pretty good because you're able to move forward with the knowledge that you're no longer contributing to the harm large groups of people are suffering every day. Acting like this is some big imposition to put on people rather than asking them to preform a minor bit of self reflection in regards to their beliefs is a tad disingenuous. As is acting like twitter grifters and corporations seeking to find a way to make the idea of "wokeness" profitable are somehow the main driving force behind encouraging people to examine their bias (and being sure to examine your own bias in turn). Also, there's a lot of cross over between oppressed groups and acting like the working poor is one monolithic mass of white hetero cis gender men with no personal stakes in issues related to gender or race is just flat out untrue. At least 50% of all working poor are women, a whole lot of them are people of color, and many of them are members of the LBGT community as well.
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Nov 16, 2021 11:29
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socialsecurity posted:Exactly you are supposed to engage people like they are always posting in good faith despite them not doing so the past 100 times, even if they are posting in another thread in the forums with the IKs about how they are coming here to troll you, it's very important you don't acknowledge any of that because doing so will get you probed(by the IK in that thread for disagreeing with his friends) but not the person who's trolling the thread with the same bullshit argument for the 100th time(even though you and only you must treat it as the first each time) I can see reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, so let me use smaller words: If you think person is troll, do not respond. Bing bong, so simple. Spare us whatever masturbatory persecution fantasy you're trying to play out.
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Nov 16, 2021 13:03
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:But a big part of systematic change is acknowledging that you're a part of that system, becoming more aware of your actions and behaviors, and then changing those actions and behaviors moving forward. The onus of oppression isn't on one particular group, it's on everyone, and nothing is going to change unless it's openly and actively discussed. Yeah, it sucks to hear "Your life is hard, but it'd be even harder if you were female/non-white/gay/trans/disabled" but it's also true and it sucks less to hear once you realize "Oh, this isn't being told to me in order to invalidate my own problems, but rather as a way to illustrate the ways in which others are suffering that are invisible to me because of my own lived experiences." Then it starts to feel pretty good because you're able to move forward with the knowledge that you're no longer contributing to the harm large groups of people are suffering every day. I already understand that but you need to convince people that are willing to listen in a way that isn't "you are white and therefore need to apologize to me on behalf of all lovely white people" and what op is referring to is that second one needing to stop and then you got mad. Incidentally that second one needs to die because I am not attending a seminar as a closeted transwoman about how I need to apologize for sexual assaults I have not done. Space Cadet Omoly posted:
Uh. No. The main driver that people who are ignorant but willing to listen is indeed corporate grifters. The vast majority of people I have spoken to about minority issues are either already knowledgeable unreachable or have been fed garbage by their corporate training seminars or twitter bluchecks asking for 1000 dollars to tell you your racist at a dinner.
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Nov 16, 2021 13:22
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I can't not respond because I must best the fools on the field of debate and impress the masses with my towering intellect, but oops sometimes the argument doesn't go the way I thought so I need the escape hatch of calling them a troll and having them banned.
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Nov 16, 2021 13:25
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:But a big part of systematic change is acknowledging that you're a part of that system, becoming more aware of your actions and behaviors, and then changing those actions and behaviors moving forward. The onus of oppression isn't on one particular group, it's on everyone, and nothing is going to change unless it's openly and actively discussed. Yeah, it sucks to hear "Your life is hard, but it'd be even harder if you were female/non-white/gay/trans/disabled" but it's also true and it sucks less to hear once you realize "Oh, this isn't being told to me in order to invalidate my own problems, but rather as a way to illustrate the ways in which others are suffering that are invisible to me because of my own lived experiences." Then it starts to feel pretty good because you're able to move forward with the knowledge that you're no longer contributing to the harm large groups of people are suffering every day. Most of us are not part of the system, just trapped by it. We have no hands on the levers.
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Nov 16, 2021 13:27
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Gumball Gumption posted:Most of us are not part of the system, just trapped by it. We have no hands on the levers. I don't have my hands on the levers but I benefit from the system and thus am totally part of it.
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Nov 16, 2021 13:40
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Darkrenown posted:https://edition.cnn.com/2021/11/11/us/kenosha-judge-bruce-schroeder-asian-food-comments/index.html ...So when do we find out the judge was also at Kenosha that night hunting for "looters"? Because uh, that seems to be where this is going 
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Nov 16, 2021 13:45
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Bel Shazar posted:I don't have my hands on the levers but I benefit from the system and thus am totally part of it. When are we doing reparations to the third world?
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Nov 16, 2021 13:47
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Looking at how things have shaped up in the last year it's interesting how unsurprisingly things have gone. Everyone pretty much called it from the jump, with a few things playing out slightly-to-moderately better than expected. Which makes the math for the Democrats and the country, pretty simple: If Republicans are winning elections, the Democrats are losing elections. If the Democrats are losing elections, the Democrats aren't in power to address the very dire problems the country is currently facing. That Virginia focus group should not have been a wake up call. Everything that came out of it is exactly what we've known about voters for decades. Expecting a bunch of low info, suburban voters to be able to parse the nuances of academic race and gender topics all while Republicans and leftwing snake oil salesmen are undermining already complex and subpar messaging, and then topping it all off Left Twitter chaos dunking on anyone who doesn't get it in one, is exactly the kind of Left/Working Class disconnect that get's you a bunch of Democratic voters deciding to hand the governors election to a Republican in a state that hasn't seen a Republican governor since 2009, saying: quote:We ask do you think Democrats share your values? One woman says “They fight for the right things and I usually vote for them but they believe some crazy things. Sometimes I feel like if I don't know the right words for things they think I am a bigot." Ultimately, The Left, Liberals, Democrats et al either find a way to craft their messaging in a way that conforms to voters level of comprehension and do the other things they need to do to get elected into office in order to pass the legislation necessary for civilization to continue remain civilized or we all get to see how far down the rabbit hole goes.
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Nov 16, 2021 13:47
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-Blackadder- posted:That Virginia focus group should not have been a wake up call. Everything that came out of it is exactly what we've known about voters for decades. Expecting a bunch of low info, suburban voters to be able to parse the nuances of academic race and gender topics all while Republicans and leftwing snake oil salesmen are undermining already complex and subpar messaging, I'm sorry but there is no loving way that low info suburban voters are angry at dems over Leftist Twitter critiques of the party, this is loving stupid and contradictory. You gotta provide evidence if you're going to try and blame a tiny minority with no real power for the failings of the entire party.
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Nov 16, 2021 13:52
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Really shouldn't have run radical sjw Twitter leftist and Tumblr superstar Terry McAuliffe, if only a smart competent pragmatic pro-business centrist had arisen 
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Nov 16, 2021 13:53
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Sedisp posted:When are we doing reparations to the third world? A few days after never I assume :/
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Nov 16, 2021 14:04
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Bel Shazar posted:I don't have my hands on the levers but I benefit from the system and thus am totally part of it. Good for you. This is not a convincing argument for the majority of people who have seen things get clearly and objectively worse and worse for them for decades at this point, and demonstrably see that the system is not working for them. Again, you cannot uncouple issues of race, sexuality, gender and identity with issues of class, wealth and material conditions. If you do, you end up with nonsense that offends almost everybody except those whose sensibilities you specifically attune it to. Many of the ideas of 'privilege' liberals use seem to have ossified in the 90s, at best, and at worst are deliberately used to reframe the debate to cast your opponents as some flavour of privileged, whether bro or 'bro-adjacent'.
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Nov 16, 2021 14:08
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Shammypants posted:I mean, yea, that's generally what one would expect as issues related to a global pandemic abate. You’re just begging for a repeat of 2010. That’s where this all ends up if we just let things naturally happen.
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Nov 16, 2021 14:16
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Flopsy posted:I already had to loving do this because for some reason they weren't banned despite a vote being held to BAN THEM. We all learn lots of important lessons about the democratic process together here.
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Nov 16, 2021 14:19
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I do think the worst examples of ultra wokeness impede our ability to reach those we need to. It's hardly a problem compared to... everything, but we shouldn't be afraid to call it out (without attacking the general fight for rights and representation that marginalized people should already have but dont). It's sad how Trans people existing, for instance, has almost no effect (beyond normal human interaction) on anybody but Trans people, but even here in NE it seems a popular easy target to make jokes about or childishly obsess over the seeing of such a person. It's the same with all supposed "sjw" causes. Adults howl like frat boys at the thoughts of safe spaces. Women with daughters explain to me how actually it's my friend's fault she was sexually assaulted in a room full of strangers ("she should have done more to stop it, men are just like that"). A middle aged gay white man purposefully messing up lgbtq and spiraling into nonsense. The assertion that we shouldn't teach America's racial history as it is the source of racism. Wow writing this has made me extremely angry. Something's wrong with my point... I guess many people are just ready or purposefully primed to be ignorant, exclusionary jerks eager to prove that they're not bleeding heart snowflakes. I'm not sure I want to tone police the loud angry left in a general sense when what we're up against is so prevalent, cruel, and difficult to counter. It's no accident though. I personally am fine just focusing on the environment, I understand it to be the most pressing and impactful issue and don't take this the wrong way, but I don't give a single tinkers drat about me or any of us on this rock in the face of *edit* imagine fighting to be able to sit in the front of the train as it's going off the cliff I guess. Let's get together and storm the engine/brake room instead. But then I'm not the marginalized one (see my red text) BRJurgis fucked around with this message at 14:30 on Nov 16, 2021 |
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Nov 16, 2021 14:23
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AmiYumi posted:I’ve asked this before to silence and probations, but when did basic research and pattern recognition become such a no-no in D&D? Rap sheets and post histories are useful indicators of who is trolling a thread for the umpteenth time and about to get another sixer vs who is worth responding to seriously. Yes but use it with the report button, not as part of your debate.
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Nov 16, 2021 14:31
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It is fascinating seeing these takes now after years of seeing, even on this board, the polar opposite complaint: that the twitter people are all the racist sexist woman-hating straight white male dirtbag left. Driving a wedge between the Democratic party and working class interests was a deliberate strategy not by "the twitter Left" (lol a bunch of powerless nobodies who certainly aren't directing Democratic party messaging and campaigns) but by the party leadership to intentionality sever from economic populism, which was a threat to the party's big funding bases in the finance and tech sectors. With the assumption that this loss could be made up by going all in on identity politics and getting woke on race and gender because demographics are destiny and white men are on their way out etc ("But will breaking up the banks solve raaaacism?" "If it had been Lehman Sisters, Wall Street wouldn't have crashed" etc) Terry McAuliffe's campaign wasn't run by "the twitter Left", it was run by diehard Clintonite establishment types who believed they had solved politics and the answer is: say "Trump and Youngkin are white males who need to check their privilege" and the affluent white women will stampede from the Panera Bread to the voting booth. Now that this strategy has failed they're just blaming it all on the left being too woke that they just barely a year ago said was too racist and too close to the *tsk tsk* prob-lem-attic white working class. One year from "  snake emojis are sexist" to "twitter is making my son apologize for 5000 years of male sexual assault " without a hint of self-awareness Also almost goes without saying but notice how the conclusion isn't "oh man we've gotta focus back on economic issues facing the working class" because again finance and tech won't like that, it's just "gotta get more racist"
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Nov 16, 2021 14:37
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BRJohnson posted:ultra wokeness Minor thing but I think language is important so I am going to call it out - please stop letting the right capture words that have existed, especially in AAVE, for decades and twist their meaning. 'Being woke' or 'wokeness' is not the same as radical identity politics, or whatever it is being used as a foil to. Before being coopted and twisted by fascists it had a pretty narrow meaning, and the least we could do to the community it's been stolen from is to try to stick to that intended meaning and not whatever conservatives want to use it as.
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Nov 16, 2021 14:39
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-Blackadder- posted:Looking at how things have shaped up in the last year it's interesting how unsurprisingly things have gone. Everyone pretty much called it from the jump, with a few things playing out slightly-to-moderately better than expected. Terry Mcauliffe, Avatar of the Left.
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Nov 16, 2021 14:44
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DragQueenofAngmar posted:kraftwerk I dont want to skip over you addressing this topic with effort and I generally agree with what you say but I think you’re underestimating how much of a sea change modern media and social media is in the propaganda arena here. This is fair. An idea today spreads like a virus when most of the media channels are colluding to make it so. Basically status quo liberals and conservatives are the only people who really have the capital and the ownership of the infrastructure that permits this. It’s privately owned propaganda which somehow makes it free speech because the state doesn’t own it even though it stops all political change. At this rate it could be considered mass mind control. I mean poo poo, you can be angry and agitate for social and political change or you can watch wheel of time on Amazon prime and quickly forget about everything. In that sense we’re in the middle of the largest industrial scale case of bread and games in human history. There’s another tactic a lot of us are missing out on by the way. Social media troll factories: Some of the more uncomfortable and awful stuff the left often gets accused of gets perpetuated by people who aren’t even real. I still remember an egregious example where a woman on a flight allegedly saw a man in the seat next to her get an erection while he was sleeping. She posted a rage tweet about toxic masculinity and how men like this offend her and should have a responsibility to take hormones so they don’t get erections in public. It’s obviously an extreme example nobody agrees with but framed as if it’s being promoted “by the left” and it’s excellent kindling for a reactionary conflagration. We of course know better, the real issue here is men controlling women’s bodies right up to denying access to abortion and birth control pills. So it’s kinda funny to see how intense the backlash is when the shoe falls off the other foot. But also important to point out that there’s tons of people amplifying and posting fake leftist messages that are obviously unpalatable to anyone but the most extremist people.
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Nov 16, 2021 14:46
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VitalSigns posted:It is fascinating seeing these takes now after years of seeing, even on this board, the polar opposite complaint: that the twitter people are all the racist sexist woman-hating straight white male dirtbag left. It indeed seems to me that social issues that should be long settled (in a strong, sane country/world) are allowed to come to fruition strategically, as a wedge to stop any momentum for economic/class struggle. I don't mean to be too vague or conspiratorial but I feel like "the system" uses these issues and indeed doing the right thing by people as a monkey wrench to disrupt movements that would actually challenge "the system". Kraftwerk posted:This is fair. An idea today spreads like a virus when most of the media channels are colluding to make it so. Basically status quo liberals and conservatives are the only people who really have the capital and the ownership of the infrastructure that permits this. 100% skylined! posted:Minor thing but I think language is important so I am going to call it out - please stop letting the right capture words that have existed, especially in AAVE, for decades and twist their meaning. 'Being woke' or 'wokeness' is not the same as radical identity politics, or whatever it is being used as a foil to. Before being coopted and twisted by fascists it had a pretty narrow meaning, and the least we could do to the community it's been stolen from is to try to stick to that intended meaning and not whatever conservatives want to use it as. I wasn't aware of the etymology of "woke" (I had to look up AAVE as well ty for exposure). I appreciate your point and don't necessarily disagree, but I have bad news about the practical usage of the term "woke" at least round here. BRJurgis fucked around with this message at 14:56 on Nov 16, 2021 |
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Nov 16, 2021 14:46
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VitalSigns posted:Also almost goes without saying but notice how the conclusion isn't "oh man we've gotta focus back on economic issues facing the working class" because again finance and tech won't like that, it's just "gotta get more racist" It's been bubbling under the surface the entire time, of course, see Donut Twitter. There was only ever real tolerance of women and minorities having their say so long as they were entirely compliant and smiling, and not actually wanting things.
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Nov 16, 2021 15:01
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All this talk of social media's impact and its need for regulation always brings me back to thinking about...Metal Gear Solid. quote:Colonel: Over the past two hundred years -- A kind of consciousness formed layer by layer in the crucible of the White House. It's not unlike the way life started in the oceans four billion years ago. The White House was our primordial soup, a base of evolution -- We are formless. We are the very discipline and morality that Americans invoke so often. How can anyone hope to eliminate us? Of interesting note, Metal Gear Solid 2 came out in 2001. MySpace would launch in 2003. And Kojima's ideas of a ruling class that, rather than attempting to change what's true, to create a convenient context around that truth that suits its needs is, IMO, 100% on track for what we see out of everywhere from CNN to Academia. There's a thread on these very forums where academics attempt to create context and purge information from public consciousness if it doesn't uphold the ruling class - but it's draped in the thinnest veneer that it's being done for our interests, for our ability to recognize the context around information.
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Nov 16, 2021 15:03
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Sedisp posted:That's not really what the poster was saying. Nor is the issue they're speaking about limited to Australian schools. Is it an issue or is it an incident? For reference, black sounding names getting fewer callbacks on the same resume is an issue. Edit: Also skylined! posted:Minor thing but I think language is important so I am going to call it out - please stop letting the right capture words that have existed, especially in AAVE, for decades and twist their meaning. 'Being woke' or 'wokeness' is not the same as radical identity politics, or whatever it is being used as a foil to. Before being coopted and twisted by fascists it had a pretty narrow meaning, and the least we could do to the community it's been stolen from is to try to stick to that intended meaning and not whatever conservatives want to use it as. This is something that literally cannot be stated enough. In the information age, words are power, and we've spent the past decade just nonstop ceding ground and letting the worst elements of the right dictate language. Find better words for the elements of far left idpol that you dislike (and, ideally, don't forget that the right has been successfully deploying idpol literally nonstop for longer than I've been alive). Decon fucked around with this message at 15:52 on Nov 16, 2021 |
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Nov 16, 2021 15:44
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Bel Shazar posted:I don't have my hands on the levers but I benefit from the system and thus am totally part of it. What does that mean in actionable terms though that isn't just cleaning up messes created by those actually in charge? I agree with the idea that people within the system who benefit from it are involved in it and should push back but I also think the current rhetoric is just used to obscure who is actually responsible for the state of the world. It spreads blame onto everyone and obscures why our society is structured the way it is instead of pointing to those in charge who have the most control. It points to systemic racism as the problem and then tells you that to change that you need to change yourself instead of changing any of the systems in society.
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Nov 16, 2021 15:45
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You know guys, maybe if you treat the left with a little bit more respect they won't be able to derail your Clintonite gubernatorial campaign with some epic shitposts
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Nov 16, 2021 15:52
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BRJohnson posted:I wasn't aware of the etymology of "woke" (I had to look up AAVE as well ty for exposure). I appreciate your point and don't necessarily disagree, but I have bad news about the practical usage of the term "woke" at least round here. Ok I am just going to be direct - don't use the term if you can't do it justice, or are comfortable being a useful tool for fascist propaganda.
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Nov 16, 2021 16:14
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Gumball Gumption posted:What does that mean in actionable terms though that isn't just cleaning up messes created by those actually in charge? I agree with the idea that people within the system who benefit from it are involved in it and should push back but I also think the current rhetoric is just used to obscure who is actually responsible for the state of the world. It spreads blame onto everyone and obscures why our society is structured the way it is instead of pointing to those in charge who have the most control. It points to systemic racism as the problem and then tells you that to change that you need to change yourself instead of changing any of the systems in society. In all fairness it's both though right? We all need to be willing and able to learn, teach, and change. As we all know, our leaders can't and won't save us. I'm certainly not saying come to the middle or let the right frame the issues, but we do need to try to reach them as their neighbors and family, obviously the democrats can't do it (even the few sincere leftists). skylined! posted:Ok I am just going to be direct - don't use the term if you can't do it justice, or are comfortable being a useful tool for fascist propaganda. As stated, I understand your point but that word simply has a totally different meaning from yours to the people in my meat-space. The shift from polite correction to straight up telling me what to do lest I be a fascist mouthpiece is interesting given the context of the current discussion. I'm not bristling over here, just seemed worth pointing out.
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Nov 16, 2021 16:20
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Something seems very wrong in Turkey. I was looking at the annual inflation numbers across the world and saw this: - Australia: 3.8% - Global Average: 4.1% - E.U. Average: 4.2% - United States: 6% - Turkey: 51.2% (!?!)
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Nov 16, 2021 16:22
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Yeah, Turkey's economy is a basket case built on shoddy construction and government cronyism to the point that many of the people I know in Turkey say that they believe the whole coup attempt was engineered by Erdogan to distract from the economy and consolidate his position before everything goes to total poo poo.
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Nov 16, 2021 16:28
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BRJohnson posted:
You can be the change you wanna see in your meatspace. I have every intention of pointing out where "woke" came from, who demonized it, and to what ends. It's a brainworms larva and I see it working on people around me. The present usage of "woke" is described well by that one right wing thinktank guy claiming credit for CRT being a big issue in 2021 elections; it's meant to be a touchpoint for "leftish things that offended me" in the hopes that building such a mentalmap will build anti-left biases. And it will NOT stop at social issues. Already, vaccination battles are being brought under the umbrella of "woke".
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Nov 16, 2021 16:29
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Something seems very wrong in Turkey. It’s Thanksgiving, of course Turkey prices would be high!
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Nov 16, 2021 16:33
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How does somebody that posts in news forums constantly not know anything about the past few years of Turkey being in a fiscal crisis.
Fame Douglas fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Nov 16, 2021 |
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Nov 16, 2021 16:34
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Fame Douglas posted:How does somebody that posts in news forums constantly not know anything about the past few years of Turkey being in a fiscal crisis. You can't expect Turkey updates outside of November.
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Nov 16, 2021 16:35
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BRJohnson posted:
You've been explained the facts, and your reaction was "welp, this is interesting, but the racists have already won this one". Even if that is true in your personal "meat-space" full of unthinking dicks, still leaves you the extremely easy option to not use the term like that anymore, at no cost to yourself. Your reaction however implies that you think this is another example of the uncompromising left pushing people away with unreasonable demands...
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Nov 16, 2021 16:38
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BRJohnson posted:In all fairness it's both though right? We all need to be willing and able to learn, teach, and change. As we all know, our leaders can't and won't save us. I'm certainly not saying come to the middle or let the right frame the issues, but we do need to try to reach them as their neighbors and family, obviously the democrats can't do it (even the few sincere leftists). Oh absolutely, I think we should be organizing with our neighbors and local community. Forming support groups and local groups are a great way to change people's minds and move them to the left. But I also think that all goes back to being trapped within the system and cleaning up the mess of those in charge. I wouldn't need to be involved in my local community food group if the people in charge were actually held responsible for the thing they built that allows people to go hungry. I wouldn't need to be involved in homeless outreach if those in charge didn't build a society that is very happy to let people die in the streets. And yes, I want to encourage more people to help but going to them and telling them they're complicate and compliant in letting it happen doesn't help. And honestly I'm not helping people out because I'm complicit and benefit from the system. I'm helping them out because the more people have their needs meet and are not dying on the street the easier it is to convince them we don't have to live this way and fight back.
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Nov 16, 2021 16:38
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