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It was like there were 25 people who actually planned out and knew what they were doing and 300 people who were confused and taking selfies while wandering halls they had only seen until Fox News until now, realizing that the Congress building is actually very large and watching cable news for 30 years in fact does not inform you where the bathrooms are. While I understand that "QAnon Shaman" got a sentence that will ensure him enough time to return to the building as an elected Congressman in a few years, making dozens of martyrs with unnecessary levels of violence pretty much ends the country. It was why I said that in 2020 that the White House was not going to have snipers shooting BLM protesters even if they're setting the lawn on fire, because the day the government indiscriminately opens fire on people is the day the government destabilizes. There isn't any major government body that has been able to do that and endure except for China, and they've had to spend decades making their people forget about that incident and now use subterfuge against dissidents to make sure movements collapse before they they ever have to shoot people. (They didn't have to use large displays of deadly force against Hong Kong protestors, they just shut down the country's productivity and made a huge hassle for the public and blamed the protests to let public opinion do it's thing.)
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Nov 18, 2021 01:13
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Rittenhouse is going to get a signed letter of apology from the judge and lawsuit settlements from the victims after a literal white supremacist murder spree, so the idea of even the shaman guy getting 20 years for basically victimless crimes would be IMO an even bigger blow to American democracy than the insurrection itself
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Nov 18, 2021 01:17
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socialsecurity posted:There's a group of people that hate the libs so much they consume a large amount of right wing media to find new ways to attack them, this affects a person. Oh I'm sorry, I thought that this was where people debated and discussed things? I don't feel this was coordinated enough to be considered a coup, but others do. Neither side is right or wrong as there is great variability in where you draw the line between a coup and a politically motivated riot. I know for myself, I learn best through discussion of alternate viewpoints, and more than happy to change my mind when presented with adequate evidence. I'm not certain why you feel people who disagree with you are doing so because they hate the libs. Why can they not hold a different point of view from you? Do you feel that dismissive comments will encourage those posters to improve? Craptacular! posted:It was why I said that in 2020 that the White House was not going to have snipers shooting BLM protesters even if they're setting the lawn on fire, because the day the government indiscriminately opens fire on people is the day the government destabilizes. There isn't any major government body that has been able to do that and endure except for China, and they've had to spend decades making their people forget about that incident and now use subterfuge against dissidents to make sure movements collapse before they they ever have to shoot people. (They didn't have to use large displays of deadly force against Hong Kong protestors, they just shut down the country's productivity and made a huge hassle for the public and blamed the protests to let public opinion do it's thing.) This touches on why I don't feel this was a defacto coup, and that's because a coup is the last thing capital or anyone with wealth wants to see, as it would have a massive negative impact on the trustworthiness of the US in terms of capital and investment. No one wants to invest or lend money to an country with an unstable government, and who know what would happen in a post coup US. Instead you do exactly what the republicans have been doing. Chip away at voters rights, make it harder for democrat voters to get to the polls, and gerrymander the hell out of everything. This gives you an effective on party system while maintaining the fig leaf of democracy and stability. And if that doesn't work, you get a judge to rule on the election in your favor. If you want to see what an American coup looks like, look back to Bush vs Gore. das hipster fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Nov 18, 2021 |
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Nov 18, 2021 01:18
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Burning_Monk posted:You'd just blame the democrats for calling a vote that failed anyway. Without Republican support it's literally impossible to expel a US Congressmember. But yes, keep trying to score points against Democrats while giving the Republicans who could actually do something about their own members a free pass. I realize the dems don't have a stranglehold on their caucus. I also realize that most congressional republicans sided with Trump/adhere to Mcconnell's strategy of refusing to aid the dems in anything/ are radicalized BUT there have been other times of rampant partisanship in US history when congress has responded promptly and strongly to threats to the liberal government and the idea and system if democracy. Often it required strong leadership from the president, but even so. Its a question of actually taking it seriously and wielding the power they have within the confines of the law. They are saying its reaally bad. They are running on how bad it is, and for a bit, much if the public was behind them. But they were slow in taking action and were not using the full extent of their powers to take decisive action. Meanwhile the public's attention has moved to issues more pressing to them. The problem of trump and republicans undermining the government and election processes continues to fester. The media landscape that allows rapid purveying of false information and aids radicalization is still present. What does that say to you? Cranappleberry fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Nov 18, 2021 |
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Nov 18, 2021 01:18
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The level of bad faith straight-up lying bullshit involved in going "DURRR 1/6 WASN'T NOTHING" is actually kind of breathtaking. Is this how the Trumplings live? Just pure solipsism 100% of the time? Like, read the Eastman memo. The loving Eastman memo. Read the FBI logs of Proud Boy/Oath Keeper burner phones. Captain Zip Tie/Taser and his mother. The entirety of three-dimensional physical reality disagrees with the straight-up loving lie that this was just a bunch of confused meatheads who had no clue what they were doing. "Oh no they were just spitballing a Mad Libs inside the building or something, why should anyone get in trouble? If Trump doesn't go to prison no one should and 10 minutes in county jail is plenty for armed insurrection, it was nonviolent except all the people that died!"
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Nov 18, 2021 01:19
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das hipster posted:Oh I'm sorry, I thought that this was where people debated and discussed things? I don't feel this was coordinated enough to be considered a coup, but others do. Neither side is right or wrong as there is great variability in where you draw the line between a coup and a politically motivated riot. "Neither side is right or wrong" says representative of the side that is wrong
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Nov 18, 2021 01:21
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This thread is giving me whiplash
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Nov 18, 2021 01:21
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das hipster posted:Oh I'm sorry, I thought that this was where people debated and discussed things? I don't feel this was coordinated enough to be considered a coup, but others do The problem at this point is that there is overwhelming evidence of the desire to overthrow the government and take power, which is essential in identifying a coup, and yet the debate rages on. The people who wished to obtain or hold onto power, instigated the people who stormed to capital to go get it for them. The people who stormed the capital *admitted on countless pieces of video evidence* their intention in stopping the vote count to keep power in the hands of their leader. The fact that this has to be continually explained, and yet is essentially ignored or sidestepped doesn't, uh, create the trust needed for actual debate. quote:Neither side is right or wrong as there is great variability in where you draw the line between a coup and a politically motivated riot. No actually it's pretty clear that anyone refusing to identify it as an attempted coup is wrong. Either there was an attempt to violently seize the power of the state or there wasn't. JonathonSpectre posted:The level of bad faith straight-up lying bullshit involved in going "DURRR 1/6 WASN'T NOTHING" is actually kind of breathtaking. Is this how the Trumplings live? Just pure solipsism 100% of the time? Exactly. The 'bunch of confused tourists' bullshit is quite literally fascist propaganda and self-identified leftists itt are repeating it. skylined! fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Nov 18, 2021 |
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Nov 18, 2021 01:22
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Craptacular! posted:
Uhhhhhhh Look up Kent State and prepare your mind to be blown
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Nov 18, 2021 01:23
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This Beer Hall Putsch is probably noting and if you're at all concerned about it you're probably a liberal. Anyhow, we should probably join white supremacists in the condemnation of Critical Race Theory. I just makes sense, people.
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Nov 18, 2021 01:24
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Oh yeah , those guys were totally gonna capture Pelosi and hog tie her up and ask her where her Icecream stash is!(That’s not a coup) Some guy put his feet up on Pelosis desk ! AOC was afraid! There are citizens milling about in the Capitol! (Not a coup) I’m just amazed at the bloodthirst for people to be locked up and forgotten about for a riot.
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Nov 18, 2021 01:25
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Cranappleberry posted:I realize the dems don't have a stranglehold on their caucus. I also realize that most congressional republicans sided with Trump/adhere to Mcconnell's strategy of refusinghi to aid the dems in anything/ are radicalized BUT there have been other times of rampant partisanship in US history when congress has responded promptly and strongly to threats to the liberal government and the idea and system if democracy. Often it required strong leadership from the president, but even so. That not enough public pressure is being put on the Republicans for being horrible monsters, while everyone in the media is fanning themselves on the fainting couch about the weak democrats. Again, the only way to expel members of congress is to convince other Republicans to vote against their worst members. Democrats aren't going to convince them of that, so it has to come from within or pressure from the public.
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Nov 18, 2021 01:25
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VitalSigns posted:Uhhhhhhh The one time they used the insurrection act Johnson hated it but went ahead because he could blame Romney later, and the resulting mess was so bad that there's basically no such thing as an official insurrection against this country since then despite a ton of stuff that looks like it should be. Which is part of the reason why sentencing these people is so difficult. Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Nov 18, 2021 |
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Nov 18, 2021 01:27
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Wang Commander posted:The level of kompromat alone available to the man in charge of the NSA has to be staggering. The executive's ability to harass, surveil, etc. is essentially unlimited. I also think Richard Nixon was America's greatest president
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Nov 18, 2021 01:28
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Peter Daou Zen posted:Oh yeah , those guys were totally gonna capture Pelosi and hog tie her up and ask her where her Icecream stash is!(That’s not a coup) You know many people were injured and killed during this right?
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Nov 18, 2021 01:28
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Why the gently caress is this argument "It was a coup" vs "It's not a coup". Either way you should all be horrified of the outcome. If it's not a coup than it's a total waste of time to put on a show while ignoring the real leaders and problems on the right. And if it is a coup, if you see parallels with the beer hall putsch, than you should be even more outraged. This was a waste of time to slap foot soldiers on the wrist and lock them up in an environment that will only radicalize them further and make them more ready to commit violence for their leaders. If you think it's the beer hall putsch you should be terrified because you're still living in that timeline. Go be mad about that together instead of "nu uh it so was a coup".
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Nov 18, 2021 01:31
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Peter Daou Zen posted:Oh yeah , those guys were totally gonna capture Pelosi and hog tie her up and ask her where her Icecream stash is!(That’s not a coup) hey...hey...hey: maybe everyone here already saw that idea, literally the simplest idea possible, and already dismissed it. here you are with "look, i'm just presenting these new and original ideas 10 months later and you're not even pretending to think about it  "thank you for your input. i promise that, from now on, i'll strongly consider "this is no big deal" before making decisions from now on. i hadn't even considered that. i just saw some people on tv and the news said they were bad so i saw red. thank you for this fresh perspective on the issue.
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Nov 18, 2021 01:33
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Burning_Monk posted:That not enough public pressure is being put on the Republicans for being horrible monsters, while everyone in the media is fanning themselves on the fainting couch about the weak democrats. Again, the only way to expel members of congress is to convince other Republicans to vote against their worst members. Democrats aren't going to convince them of that, so it has to come from within or pressure from the public. Again why not have them arrested if they conspired to overthrow the government which last I checked is a crime. When senator Larry Craig solicited an undercover cop for public sex in an airport bathroom the cop wasn't like "whoa hey sorry your grace didn't realize that was you keep on sucking and loving my hands are tied unless Harry Reid gets on the horn and tells me 67 senators voted that you please stop" they loving arrested him because legislators aren't above the law and the idea that they are nobles who can only be punished by other nobles is just something D&D libs made up to justify Democrats running ads decrying a coup then having drinks with the alleged ringleaders after work
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Nov 18, 2021 01:34
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Craptacular! posted:I hope you never complain about "decorum" then. I posted the toon in response to calls for the shaman dude to be imprisoned for the next several decades; it had nothing to do with Gosar. Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The fund was only created in 1996 and it applies to all staff employed by the legislative branch and not just congressman. John Conyers and Blake Farenthold were the notable sitting members who had used taxpayer funds for a settlement. Ok, having looked this over & checked out the links, I can't find any names named, which was what I had hoped would be disclosed. So the assailants will remain anonymous in perpetuity? That sucks, because hundreds of charges "only" from 1996 to 2017 means a lot of sitting politicians have assaults & secret settlements that will never be disclosed, no matter how high up the political ranks they've crawled since their raping days. Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 01:42 on Nov 18, 2021 |
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Nov 18, 2021 01:34
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Craptacular! posted:It was why I said that in 2020 that the White House was not going to have snipers shooting BLM protesters even if they're setting the lawn on fire, because the day the government indiscriminately opens fire on people is the day the government destabilizes. You'd be in for a shock, then, because they absolutely would have mowed down BLM protesters if it came down to it, and there would have been absolutely no consequences for it
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Nov 18, 2021 01:38
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Peter Daou Zen posted:I’m just amazed at the bloodthirst for people to be locked up and forgotten about for a riot. I stand by my position that they never should've made it to trial. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 18, 2021 01:42
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Trazz posted:You'd be in for a shock, then, because they absolutely would have mowed down BLM protesters if it came down to it, and there would have been absolutely no consequences for it If BLM protestors got serious enough to get gunned down on the White House Lawn then there would absolutely have been consequences. The BLM movement would have been crushed with unbelievable urgency and efficacy.
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Nov 18, 2021 01:44
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Minnesota police literally got into a speeding van and took potshots at random people on the streets because they were having a bad day. LAPD turned multiple cars into swiss cheese on the hopes that they might have had a black man inside(Michael Dorner). The US government indiscriminately firing on citizens is not even a new thing for white people, let alone everyone else. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Nov 18, 2021 |
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Nov 18, 2021 01:44
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Trazz posted:"Neither side is right or wrong" says representative of the side that is wrong This isn't twitter. I'm more than happy to talk about this with you if you do actually want to engage, but but flippant comments like this leave precious little ground for discussion.
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Nov 18, 2021 01:45
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Burning_Monk posted:That not enough public pressure is being put on the Republicans for being horrible monsters, while everyone in the media is fanning themselves on the fainting couch about the weak democrats. Again, the only way to expel members of congress is to convince other Republicans to vote against their worst members. Democrats aren't going to convince them of that, so it has to come from within or pressure from the public. The democrats could have started the 1/6 investigation ASAP, focusing on the leadership/organizers and politicians involved, waiting only to go after trump admin officials after Biden took power so there would be no legal issues with enforcing subpoenas. Same with senate once the 2 senators from Georgia were seated. At that point, when 1/6 was still fresh in the minds of senators and the public, it may have had a chance to actually happen. Instead, they waited. This gave the RW media apparatus time to recover, for 1/6 to become a (relatively) distant political memory which gave republicans and manchin cover to equivocate. They only need 50 votes + the tiebreaker to form it. Republicans do not really care about political pressure because a large part of their base was in favor of a coup. But also the media environment would go to work on independents (especially the suburbanites the dems courted). The state Republicans then went ahead with creating new, powerful antidemocratic laws and started bullshit voting investigations which are now the new norm- this is particularly bad because it happened in swing states, too, and while we know they're bullshit it was enough. The waters got muddied. All republicans had to do was stall out, let their legal, institutional and media advantages go to work and they knew it. If ever there was a reason to go nuclear on the filibuster it was for a new VRA but I realize that is a pipedream.
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Nov 18, 2021 01:46
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Right, that's part of how the US suppresses unrest. It needs to be -your- people who are being shot. We're a million little groups fighting in a country. We have little national identify. When the government opens fire on people in America it doesn't feel like they're shooting you to enough people.
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Nov 18, 2021 01:48
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das hipster posted:Oh I'm sorry, I thought that this was where people debated and discussed things? I don't feel this was coordinated enough to be considered a coup, but others do. Neither side is right or wrong as there is great variability in where you draw the line between a coup and a politically motivated riot. Nothing wrong with ignorance so long as you're open to other perspectives. Steve Bannon, who advised the president in December to focus on Jan 6 with the words "we're going to kill the Biden presidency in the crib", literally told his Podcast listeners this was their opportunity to participate in a revolution. The day before the riot, he promised "all hell" would break loose. This wasn't him speculating. Bannon knew it would be a riot, he was taking active steps to foment it. Bannon didn't do any of this alone, he had the full support of Trump and his team. The rioters may have largely been useful idiots without a plan, but they were told to show up by people who sent them there as part of a larger campaign to put pressure on Pence, with the purpose of bringing the Eastman strategy to fruition. I don't know what else you'd require to call it a coup.
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Nov 18, 2021 01:53
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:This thread is giving me whiplash I'm beginning to find I regret it every time I poke my head in here looking for news.
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Nov 18, 2021 01:55
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Sanguinia posted:Lol, we've gone from "All Republicans aren't nazis, stop being so absurd," to "CRT Conspiracy theories have some legitimate concerns and the people against it are just IDpol Culture Warriors," to "The left should integrate Anti-CRT talking points instead of opposing the people voting to burn books for having LGBTQ characters," to "January 6 was just a few scamps embarrassing the stupid dumb-o-crats," in less than three weeks on this forum. What the gently caress happened? I've hardly even been coming here much and yeah what the gently caress happened? snorch posted:Nothing wrong with ignorance so long as you're open to other perspectives. Also, for the "Dems do nothing crowd", man just got picked up by the feds. Decon fucked around with this message at 02:02 on Nov 18, 2021 |
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Nov 18, 2021 01:59
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Decon posted:I've hardly even been coming here much and yeah what the gently caress happened? Some thread/forum banned people were invited back to stir the same poo poo they used too. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 18, 2021 02:06
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Jaxyon posted:Minnesota police literally got into a speeding van and took potshots at random people on the streets because they were having a bad day. lol and never forget that Philly PD firebombed their own residents, burning down 60 homes and killing 11 people, half of whom were kids, and nobody was punished except for the only adult survivor who then did 7 years in prison for "rioting" Incredibly ahistorical take by that person
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Nov 18, 2021 02:07
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socialsecurity posted:Some thread/forum banned people were invited back to stir the same poo poo they used too. ....my eyes have successfully rolled into the back of my skull.
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Nov 18, 2021 02:18
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das hipster posted:This isn't twitter. I'm more than happy to talk about this with you if you do actually want to engage, but but flippant comments like this leave precious little ground for discussion. That's the idea! You can either agree with the facts or you can be wrong. "There is precious little ground for me to disagree with objective reality, this is YOUR fault and not mine" 
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Nov 18, 2021 02:20
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:lol and never forget that Philly PD firebombed their own residents, burning down 60 homes and killing 11 people, half of whom were kids, and nobody was punished except for the only adult survivor who then did 7 years in prison for "rioting" like two days ago the police killed two innocent people because they heard gunshots down the block. they then charged the people who fired the gunshots, blocks away, with murder.
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Nov 18, 2021 02:21
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InsertPotPun posted:like two days ago the police killed two innocent people because they heard gunshots down the block. they then charged the people who fired the gunshots, blocks away, with murder. Jesus... Got links to articles on the incident?
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Nov 18, 2021 02:22
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Flopsy posted:I'm beginning to find I regret it every time I poke my head in here looking for news. I've mentioned it before when you've talked about D&D causing you severe mental distress, but you might want to check out Dem-only-good-news spaces like dailykos & democraticunderground. They cover political news, too.
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Nov 18, 2021 02:27
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Decon posted:Jesus... Got links to articles on the incident? Wait a day or two and it'll happen again
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Nov 18, 2021 02:29
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snorch posted:Nothing wrong with ignorance so long as you're open to other perspectives. I'm sorry but if you can't be civil and discuss things like an adult and not lead with a personal attacks then we have nothing to discuss. If you want to take that as a victory be my guest. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 18, 2021 02:34
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Decon posted:Jesus... Got links to articles on the incident? https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/11/us/pennsylvania-teens-charged-for-murder-of-fanta-bility/index.html quote:Ford and Strand exchanged multiple gunshots with each other following a verbal altercation at a football game [...] and led to police, stationed near the entrance to the football stadium, to discharge their weapons, Stollsteimer said. The "gunfire by the officers wounded three bystanders and tragically killed Fanta Bility," he said quote:On November 18, a grand jury will review the entire case to determine the use of deadly force by police at the scene was justified, quote:Stollsteimer has not identified the officer who shot the fatal bullet, but all three have acknowledged firing on the vehicle holding Fanta. quote:The officers say they mistakenly believed the vehicle was involved in the shooting between the 16-year-old and Strand, which unfolded about a block away from the stadium. InsertPotPun fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Nov 18, 2021 |
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Nov 18, 2021 02:35
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Flopsy posted:....my eyes have successfully rolled into the back of my skull. It's a circular debate that amounts to nothing and its frustrating. I don't want the news/information posters drowned out, either. So I get it. This, even as I participate because we're all frustrated with the state of things in the US, even if we have different perspectives on some of the reasons why. Sometimes debate between posters with different perspectives on events/the current political situation in the US happens. There are disagreements over labeling and even the facts, which might be distasteful and cause friction. Sometimes venting can be healthy. But more often than not, venting leads to more frustration and higher tension (which anyone can look up in research or CBT/DBT materials). But it's understandable to a point.
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Nov 18, 2021 02:37
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