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Bar Ran Dun posted:The things that’s been getting to me is... they had how to identify and prevent basically all the problems we face now. Inequality, climate, even political polarization, how they think lets one model these problems and then create solutions. I recommend the documentary “Fog of War.” Really good read on how this all transpired.
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Nov 25, 2021 19:03
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Shut the gently caress up about justifying Rittenhouse, thanks
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Nov 25, 2021 19:03
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We kidnap their children and throw them into rape dungeons, murder their parents with impunity, and deliberately poison their water. Write to your congressman to fix it. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 25, 2021 19:13
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Can I just say this derail all started because one person said it was a peaceful protest. It wasn't. It's ok to admit that. gently caress the rest of the dumb back and forth arguing, it was what is was. We all know why it happened, don't backtrack and claim otherwise but still use the social unrest and anger to trivialize what happened when reality doesn't fit the narrative you are arguing. Social justice can and has to get ugly to expose the hate and injustice people experience. I will delete this if mods deem it necessary, I do not wish to argue with anyone. BetterToRuleInHell fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Nov 25, 2021 |
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Nov 25, 2021 19:19
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TheDisreputableDog posted:Haha, awesome! Now do one for people’s homes and apartments also burned down in the Kenosha protests. Like “GOOD THING I GOT RENTERS INSURANCE AFTER ALL” Weren't you just wringing your hands about people being executed without due process yesterday?
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Nov 25, 2021 19:25
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thousands of people lose their homes every day. It's called eviction and if you're going to talk about deploying vigilante justice in that area of concern, maybe start with landlord associations instead of civil rights demonstrations. It's like there's this fetish for order that trumps every other concern or something.
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Nov 25, 2021 19:32
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President Kucinich posted:thousands of people lose their homes every day. I'm of the opinion that there is a simmering low intensity civil war that has been triggered since the late years of Obama's presidency. When you make your peace with the fact that this is war, anything goes. You can try to be diplomatic but at the end of the day if a bunch of people got together and torched some rental properties and busted up a police station I would say that this is war and you will justify what you did in this war however you want based on the side you picked. I'd rather people just be honest about that than lean into some weird legal or ethical justification for their actions. poo poo like rule of law, property rights and everything else goes out the window when you're essentially waging war to achieve political objectives for your given side. I was watching an interview with some old East German Stasi agents who were talking about the privatization of former East German state owned companies and how it threw thousands of people out onto the streets who never really recovered economically since reunification leading to a right wing radicalization and alienation of many East Germans... He simply put "You can't *shoot* capitalism. If you could, someone would have done it already." So you can burn as many buildings as you want and destroy all the property you want it won't change a drat thing because its a social hierarchy and a system of people that causes this and it's not something you can "shoot". This is what I see here. People are angry, miserable, they couldn't figure out how to exist in this system and its left them behind to rot. So in a rage they'll go out and attack the symbols of the system that alienated them... That's the rental properties, the department stores and other symbols of property and capitalism that has hurt them. It's not rational, nobody in that position can really think rationally anymore.
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Nov 25, 2021 19:53
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JonathonSpectre posted:Listen, I know the police are just gunning unarmed people down left and right and I do care about that... As a side note, you should probably think about what burning down stores, even corporate ones, can mean for a neighborhood. Here in Minneapolis, burning/destroying the Target across the street from the 3rd precinct, along with the other two nearby corporate grocery stores, created a food desert in the neighborhood for months. This creates serious problems for the residents, especially those without cars. I obviously agree with defending property isn't worth taking lives. But treating burned down corporate stores as "lol who cares" makes you seem really out of touch. E: VVVV The people who were arrested for arson were overwhelmingly (or completely?) from outside of Minneapolis. They certainly weren't residents of Longfellow/East Phillips. And what about Cub and Aldi? Kalit fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Nov 25, 2021 |
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Nov 25, 2021 20:33
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There's more nuance to it than that, though. The Target in question had a bad reputation in the eyes of the residents of the area. Sometimes those places that are attacked are representative of the oppression people face. There really aren't a lot of acceptable outlets to express frustration or anger- whether it be violence or organizing in politics: sometimes the problem is just insurmountable. The creation of a food desert is a bad thing: but is the property damage the real issue to be talked about when it comes to these protests? No. Doctor Butts fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Nov 25, 2021 |
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Nov 25, 2021 20:38
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TheDisreputableDog posted:Haha, awesome! Now do one for people’s homes and apartments also burned down in the Kenosha protests. Like “GOOD THING I GOT RENTERS INSURANCE AFTER ALL” Fact: You are a racist moron (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 25, 2021 20:44
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Yeah I mean the capitalist system has created an environment where it is very difficult to surgically hurt capital without any collateral damage. Guess we should just vote. That will work.
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Nov 25, 2021 20:56
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Who gives a gently caress if you think it's a tragedy or justified violence. Either way you don't want buildings on fire. People are so upset they're seeing buildings on fire. The majority recognize the anger is justified. Leadership of doing very little to resolve problems. Both sides should be putting pressure on them to solve the underlying problems instead of sniping.
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Nov 25, 2021 21:01
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Doctor Butts posted:There's more nuance to it than that, though. The Target in question had a bad reputation in the eyes of the residents of the area. Sometimes those places that are attacked are representative of the oppression people face. There really aren't a lot of acceptable outlets to express frustration or anger- whether it be violence or organizing in politics: sometimes the problem is just insurmountable. The creation of a food desert is a bad thing: but is the property damage the real issue to be talked about when it comes to these protests? And heck to elaborate on that bad reputation they were outright doing a bunch of wage theft iirc?
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Nov 25, 2021 21:16
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Kraftwerk posted:I'm of the opinion that there is a simmering low intensity civil war that has been triggered since the late years of Obama's presidency. When you make your peace with the fact that this is war, anything goes. You can try to be diplomatic but at the end of the day if a bunch of people got together and torched some rental properties and busted up a police station I would say that this is war and you will justify what you did in this war however you want based on the side you picked. I'd rather people just be honest about that than lean into some weird legal or ethical justification for their actions. poo poo like rule of law, property rights and everything else goes out the window when you're essentially waging war to achieve political objectives for your given side. Is this entirely or even largely economic because it doesn't explain the 2016 election where the "Blue Wall" finally fell to the GOP. These people are necessarily poor either. They're just lovely selfish racist people who don't care.
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Nov 25, 2021 21:21
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Is this entirely or even largely economic because it doesn't explain the 2016 election where the "Blue Wall" finally fell to the GOP. These people are necessarily poor either. They're just lovely selfish racist people who don't care. Hey, hey, you can't call them racist! That might make them be racist!
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Nov 25, 2021 21:30
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Is this entirely or even largely economic because it doesn't explain the 2016 election where the "Blue Wall" finally fell to the GOP. These people are necessarily poor either. They're just lovely selfish racist people who don't care. The Blue Wall fell because in the closing weeks of the campaign the primary message the Democratic Party gave to vote for Clinton was 'TRUMP BAD' instead of anything good that her winning might do for voters. Trump, meanwhile, ran on CLINTON BAD, as well as hope and change. Then voters who decided in those closing weeks chose the hope and change candidate.
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Nov 25, 2021 21:36
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Is this entirely or even largely economic because it doesn't explain the 2016 election where the "Blue Wall" finally fell to the GOP. Given that Clinton underperformed among POC voters, particularly in the Upper Midwest, it seems likely that it's at least part of the explanation. The problem with the way you're framing this is that it's a false binary - people don't just have to choose between R or D. A lot of them can, and do, just skip voting altogether.
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Nov 25, 2021 21:38
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rare Magic card l00k posted:The Blue Wall fell because in the closing weeks of the campaign the primary message the Democratic Party gave to vote for Clinton was 'TRUMP BAD' instead of anything good that her winning might do for voters. It was probably actually the Comey letter though.
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Nov 25, 2021 21:39
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Ogmius815 posted:It was probably actually the Comey letter though. Her support among black people in Wisconsin didn't drop because of the Comey letter.
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Nov 25, 2021 21:57
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not even one of the ignorant people who asks "did Mookie do the right thing?" But surety that Mookie did the wrong thing in the movie Do the Right Thing. (Mookie did the right thing)
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Nov 25, 2021 21:59
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War is war, there's sometimes collateral damage. Things can be rebuilt and repaired. Lives can't be un-lost, and on balance no property will ever be worth lives. Never feel bad about the destruction of the tools of capital that are used to keep people in wage slavery and under the boot of a system that perpetuates misery and calls it growth. Indeed, it's a moral imperative since that is the only method to actually harm capitalism: their money
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Nov 25, 2021 22:32
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Srice posted:And heck to elaborate on that bad reputation they were outright doing a bunch of wage theft iirc? Well, good. Now all the people who USED to work there can find another job where they don't get their wages thefted. I mean, after they recover from being evicted from their non-burned down apartment because Target suddenly decided not to pay them anything due to a sudden decrease in job demand. Or ended up with the clothes on their back and still evicted because somebody DID burn down their apartment, and all their stuff with it. But yeah, they'll just bounce right back from that. War is hell, but it doesn't leave a pile of shattered LIVING lives behind which we shouldn't worry about because they're martyrs to the far off call of social revolution. gently caress any of you assholes who think this is acceptable. killer_robot fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Nov 25, 2021 |
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Nov 25, 2021 22:37
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Cranappleberry posted:not even one of the ignorant people who asks "did Mookie do the right thing?" But surety that Mookie did the wrong thing in the movie Do the Right Thing. Oh Christ, when I saw Mookie, I thought you were somehow talking about Dominic Deegan.
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Nov 25, 2021 22:37
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HonorableTB posted:Indeed, it's a moral imperative since that is the only method to actually harm capitalism: their money The only harm damaging up a business' property is going to do is annoy their insurance underwriter and get you arrested. Capitalism is a system of laws and policies, not an end boss you can weaken via side quests to smash up department stores. If anything, smashing windows to force their replacement is good for the economy. The real utility in doing it is limited to catharsis and maybe sending a message to lawmakers but that's about it.
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Nov 25, 2021 22:42
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HonorableTB posted:War is war, there's sometimes collateral damage. Things can be rebuilt and repaired. Lives can't be un-lost, and on balance no property will ever be worth lives. Never feel bad about the destruction of the tools of capital that are used to keep people in wage slavery and under the boot of a system that perpetuates misery and calls it growth. Indeed, it's a moral imperative since that is the only method to actually harm capitalism: their money And who cares about the lives affected/destroyed by those who are doing the great [anarchist] work [of destroying the tools of capital]. One day, they'll see that this is the better solution and the ends always justify the means  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 25, 2021 22:42
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Lives destroyed lol
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Nov 25, 2021 22:52
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KillHour posted:The only harm damaging up a business' property is going to do is annoy their insurance underwriter and get you arrested. Capitalism is a system of laws and policies, not an end boss you can weaken via side quests to smash up department stores. This. You can't hurt the people in power anymore. Gone are the days of the 1800s-1900s where anarchist bomb throwers can just toss a suitcase into a VIP's lap and blow up a horse drawn carriage. You can't reach them anymore. The system is a self perpetuating inevitability where they will always be physically far away from you. When they see these riots and civil unrest over economic conditions they laugh. They aren't even thinking about these people, they're out dropping 25,000 on a casual Tuesday evening dinner party and enjoying their lives. The actual people (not politicians) responsible for pulling all the strings, making all the calls and triggering the legislation that makes life difficult for everyone are floating out there in their private jets and personal yachts with cutting edge security systems and an army of private armed security. They are as close to being living gods who didn't quite figure out the immortality puzzle yet. There's no rules for them and anything and everything is possible. The system is optimized enough to resist any kind of unrest because it provides just enough to lose for just enough people that any who would think of fighting back can easily be contained or ignored. The country is big enough that entire states or cities could turn into ghettos and the nation's rich would never even notice. We lived like this in the late 1800s-early 1900s and it took a world war to indiscriminately destroy enough wealth that it leveled the playing field. We didn't do it through revolution, political change, democracy or anything like that. It happened on its own, through their own hubris and their own foolhardy experimentation with splitting nationalism from a desire for economic and social change to divide the left. Today it's the same old rhyme. Nationalism, white supremacy, religious and racial purity provides an outlet for anger over social and economic conditions. It keeps people divided and easier to rule. My forecast is that hubris regarding climate change will cause a massive upheaval that will provide an opportunity for social change and a political realignment. Unfortunately it's going to be bloody and there's a chance civilization might not survive the conflict that it will cause but if we're looking for a major upset in the way the system works, that is what will cause it. We're gonna have to ask ourselves as a society if it's okay to starve 150 million people because the rich don't wanna pay their taxes. We'll have to ask ourselves if we're comfortable with the idea of building minefields all over the US/Mexican border and authorizing the coast card to use high caliber 20mm cannons to blast refugee ships and indiscriminately murder anyone who tries to get into the country. That's the kind of poo poo we'll be dealing with in 2050-2070. Kraftwerk fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Nov 25, 2021 |
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Nov 25, 2021 22:56
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drat how do you find the time to say all that before torching a Wendy's or whatever
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Nov 25, 2021 23:02
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If only those mean rabble rousers had done things right and gone through NGOs and run GOTV campaigns for Dems they actually could've actually accomplished some change, such as uhhhhh
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Nov 25, 2021 23:02
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Do we even trust polls anymore? Cause last couple of elections their narratives don't seem to track.
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Nov 25, 2021 23:05
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They are not in fact untouchable and the climate collapse will expose how vulnerable they are once the system starts failing severely enough that it doesn't protect them anymore due to a critical mass of people no longer able to or willing to buy into it. Give it 20-30 years at the most. The only reason they're considered untouchable now is because there aren't enough people desperate enough yet, but that won't take a long time to happen.
HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Nov 25, 2021 |
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Nov 25, 2021 23:10
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HonorableTB posted:They are not in fact untouchable and the climate collapse will expose how vulnerable they are once the system starts failing severely enough that it doesn't protect them anymore due to a critical mass of people no longer able to or willing to buy into it. Give it 20-30 years at the most But this is what I said. WW1/WW2 leveled the playing field and reset it to social democracy for the first time in human history. Up until about 1990 if you lived in a Western Country you basically had the best standard of living, safety and health that any human being could possibly have in the entire history of human existence. Until the aids crisis almost every imaginable human disease could be treated with the exception of cancer which itself is an epidemic only because people are living long enough to get it. I sometimes wonder if the prosperity of the post WW2 era was a "reward" to everyone who lived through it and when they all died out there was no reason to give it to us. You could graduate high school, get a good paid job as a tool and die maker or an unskilled auto assembly line worker and retire in relative affluence compared to what people who grew up just 20-30 years before could do. They took all of that away after the effects of Reagan's policies really sunk in in the 1990s and then Clinton delivered the death blow. In less than a generation the entire ladder was yanked out from under us just as it was "our turn". My argument as stated in my post above is that the major upheavals and social changes aren't going to happen until climate change forces them to happen. Like WW1 and WW2 provided military level training, experience and organization to millions of people around the world. If you did not take care of their material needs after the war ended, they'd just resume the war against their own governments and possibly win because they had enough knowhow, training and courage to do it. Climate change wont give us military training, but there's a lot of people out there who could still cause serious damage in sufficient enough numbers. Kraftwerk fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Nov 25, 2021 |
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Nov 25, 2021 23:20
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Roadie posted:Hey, hey, you can't call them racist! That might make them be racist! I don't work in PR. After Trump, I no longer see a reason to be polite to conservatives. It shouldn't be to anyone's surprise that the worst parts of this Country are coming out of former Confederate States. Majorian posted:Given that Clinton underperformed among POC voters, particularly in the Upper Midwest, it seems likely that it's at least part of the explanation. The problem with the way you're framing this is that it's a false binary - people don't just have to choose between R or D. A lot of them can, and do, just skip voting altogether. There are multiple aspects to every election and if we look at specifically at areas like Minnesota, Illinois, Michigan or the "Rust Belt" you'll that the Democratic Party has been severely bleeding non-college white voters especially males by a much larger margin than losing minority voters. The article you shared is incredibly vague on specifics, see The One Demographic That Is Hurting Hillary Clinton quote:Democrats are dependent on white working-class voters in the Midwest, but Republicans are dependent on minorities and well-educated voters in the Sun Belt.
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Nov 25, 2021 23:34
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Kraftwerk posted:But this is what I said. WW1/WW2 leveled the playing field and reset it to social democracy for the first time in human history. Up until about 1990 if you lived in a Western Country you basically had the best standard of living, safety and health that any human being could possibly have in the entire history of human existence. Until the aids crisis almost every imaginable human disease could be treated with the exception of cancer which itself is an epidemic only because people are living long enough to get it. I sometimes wonder if the prosperity of the post WW2 era was a "reward" to everyone who lived through it and when they all died out there was no reason to give it to us. How did Clinton deliver the final blow? What was it?
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Nov 25, 2021 23:44
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:How did Clinton deliver the final blow? What was it? Third Way neoliberalism, OP
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Nov 25, 2021 23:51
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:How did Clinton deliver the final blow? What was it? Off the top of my head: -Continued the conservative slashfest started by Reagan + GHW Bush. -Signed NAFTA -Removed other protectionist tariffs -Slashed welfare during an economic boom so no one noticed -Repealed the Glass-Steagall act which made Wall-Street rich and hosed everyone else over (A big deal) Clinton was the first Democrat America had since Jimmy Carter and rather than try to reverse or stop what Reagan did he enshrined them as core values of the Democratic party which Hilary so ruthlessly enforced thereafter.
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Nov 25, 2021 23:59
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I'm not a fan of Clinton but at the same time I have a difficult time putting him as the same boat as Reagan. Who was a literal traitor to this Country with Iran-Contra along with all of his terrible economic decisions. Edit - Good points though, that is interesting.
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Nov 26, 2021 00:02
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:I'm not a fan of Clinton but at the same time I have a difficult time putting him as the same boat as Reagan. Who was a literal traitor to this Country with Iran-Contra along with all of his terrible economic decisions. Reagan is the big bully who kicks you in the balls, and then Clinton is the little sidekick who stands over you and goes "yeahhh take that you pussy"
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Nov 26, 2021 00:05
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Clinton signed the Defense of Marriage Act into law. Oh hey, Biden voted for it too. And Harry Reid. Others too.
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Nov 26, 2021 00:17
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BetterToRuleInHell posted:Clinton signed the Defense of Marriage Act into law. Shhh, you're not allowed to use a Democrat's previous words and actions against them if it makes them look bad. That's doxxing.
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Nov 26, 2021 00:19
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