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Leperflesh posted:regarding D&D character creators from last page... yeah that other thing that made this triggered memory so interesting to me is that it sort of proves that WOTC had been trying to do computer-assisted tools for their D&D for a while now, and is just another point in favor of "4e was not a huge deviation from the norm" as you said, if anything, 3.5 was, since it was the one that didn't have a similar toolset compared to 3.0 or even AD&D
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Nov 30, 2021 05:33
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gradenko_2000 posted:yeah that other thing that made this triggered memory so interesting to me is that it sort of proves that WOTC had been trying to do computer-assisted tools for their D&D for a while now, and is just another point in favor of "4e was not a huge deviation from the norm" The key point for me is a never-ending cycle of creating a tool, having it actually work on release, and then abandoning it, and then starting from scratch in a few years. Over and over and over. Their game tools don't fail because they're bad, or because customers don't want them: they're just failed, by the company. One time it was because of a murder-suicide, but even in that case, the lack of access or redundancy to the source code repository by its corporate owner was extremely negligent, and the company at that moment absolutely had enough revenue to pay for a software house to recover or resuscitate what was already there, rather than starting over (on the Silverlight platform, lol).
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Nov 30, 2021 08:25
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Lord that has to be one of the most grim divergence points in the history of the medium
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Nov 30, 2021 09:32
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Splicer posted:It's not just RPGs. Most mainstream fiction features reactive heroes vs proactive villains. To go full Wendy's, it's a symptom of most of the real problems in the world (and fake problems in fictional worlds) being systemic issues that the author and the industry that supports them have no real problems with, or don't even think of questioning. Kill the bad usurper to put the rightful and just king back on the throne - good. Kill all the nobility because monarchy is an inherently unfair system - that's a "villain plan" that the heroes react to and prevent. Blow up an oil pipeline that only a couple dozen rich people want and everyone else thinks is a bad idea? Well your heart is in the right place but you're going too far, you should work within the system to solve this issue. Actual meaningful change within the "good" empire is not really a narrative priority. I think that's overstating it and mixing two different things: blowing up an oil pipeline is typically a reactive action for a hero to take, because it's typically going to be done in response to some villain taking the initiative to build a pipeline. Similarly it's not even a systematic issue, because the systematic issue is that people can just go and build oil pipelines while loving over other people, not that there's a pipeline. Blowing up a pipeline isn't systematic change, it's just going to cost some rich person millions and cause long-term environmental damage. Even stories about trying to enact systematic change are often presented as the hero reacting to something already in progress by discovering some injustice and deciding to right a wrong that's been made. Reactive heroes and proactive villains isn't about authors all supporting the status quo against systematic change, it's just a very convenient narrative device.
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Nov 30, 2021 16:08
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“You see, the only thing the good people are good at is overthrowing the bad people. And you're good at that, I'll grant you. But the trouble is it's the only thing you're good at. One day it's the ringing of the bells and the casting down of the evil tyrant, and the next it's everyone sitting around complaining that ever since the tyrant was overthrown no one's been taking out the trash. Because the bad people know how to plan. It's part of the specification, you might say. Every evil tyrant has a plan to rule the world. The good people don't seem to have the knack.” — Terry Pratchett
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Nov 30, 2021 17:03
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"Realistically", getting rid of The Evil System can be accomplished via a short period of violence and destruction in which lots of people die, and quite often what replaces The Evil System is no better or maybe a lot worse; but, the alternative - multi-generational social and political change as a broad swathe of people gradually push for and achieve incremental improvements - is deeply unsatisfying for those who are suffering right now. But games aren't (or don't have to be) about "realistically." Games are often just escapist fantasy. And if we want to participate in unrealistic but satisfying escapism, why not have an RPG where a ragtag band of heroes can overthrow The Evil System and have a bright clean new future where things work out great? I'm not sure how healthy of a fantasy that is, but a lot of our fantasies are really unhealthy anyway, so it's not that different from the rest. We're still mostly fantasizing about heroic violence and that's not very healthy either.
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Nov 30, 2021 19:31
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A design obstacle is that RPGs tend to be designed to last indefinitely. Broken Spire is very, very designed around an end: you kill the bad guy and how good you kill him determines how smoothly power transitions to your new normal. More games could do this but it clashes with the open-ended mindset that many systems prefer.
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Nov 30, 2021 19:44
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MonsieurChoc posted:How many Republics/Empires/Dynasties did France go through in two centuries? Not thaaat crazy, when executed well. Coolness Averted posted:what? The child molestor mechanics are the daemon Folca who gives powers that require child abuse to activate The last one is that Phrenology is a psychic skill in Pathfinder 1st ed.
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Nov 30, 2021 19:50
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As flawed as Godbound may be, me and my group have gotten a lot of mileage out of it in our Dark Sun campaign. The system and advancement mechanics require PCs to be proactive forces for change, but those changes themselves create new problems within the world, creating hooks for future sessions, and this works really well in a setting like Dark Sun where you have entrenched, reactionary forces whose control you have to break to make the world a better place.
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Nov 30, 2021 19:50
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Tulip posted:A design obstacle is that RPGs tend to be designed to last indefinitely. Broken Spire is very, very designed around an end: you kill the bad guy and how good you kill him determines how smoothly power transitions to your new normal. More games could do this but it clashes with the open-ended mindset that many systems prefer. Not disagreeing with you, but it’s worth keeping in mind that this is circular : we assume games should have long campaigns because they do and then (some) people complain if they don’t. I think a lot more games should focus on tight play loops that concentrate on delivering the kinds of experience they set out to have and not worry cause some rando whines that a game designed for one shots doesn’t have extensive options for character advancement.
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Nov 30, 2021 19:54
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Terrible Opinions posted:Between ten and twentyish depending on how you count them. Though most of those changes were the result of foreign invasion or the monarchy being restored and then a revolution against the new monarch. Galt has been stuck in Committee of Public Safety mode for 50 years somehow. With the somehow evidently being magic evil worm. Wow, you just reminded me of Eberron's House Vadalis, who are basically running a eugenics program for breeding the best magical mounts/monstrosities... which includes wildshaping into the animals to gently caress them for added intelligence
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Nov 30, 2021 19:57
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Xiahou Dun posted:Not disagreeing with you, but it’s worth keeping in mind that this is circular : we assume games should have long campaigns because they do and then (some) people complain if they don’t. I think a lot more games should focus on tight play loops that concentrate on delivering the kinds of experience they set out to have and not worry cause some rando whines that a game designed for one shots doesn’t have extensive options for character advancement. this is sort of parallel to the Pathfinder discussion in the Industry thread, but it's kinda funny that a lot of Paizo organized play taps out at level 12 because the writers generally understood that that was about as high as you can go before players (read: casters) can really start to derail poo poo and people just generally went along with it
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Nov 30, 2021 20:00
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change my name posted:Wow, you just reminded me of Eberron's House Vadalis, who are basically running a eugenics program for breeding the best magical mounts/monstrosities... which includes wildshaping into the animals to gently caress them for added intelligence  I wasn't aware of that particular bit of lore
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Nov 30, 2021 20:01
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Asterite34 posted:
I learned this after rolling up a Mark of Handling Ranger for an Eberron game and had to read the wiki, thanks guys
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Nov 30, 2021 20:04
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Yeesh, and I felt like a creep for taking that Exalted feat that says you hosed a dryad.
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Nov 30, 2021 20:09
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gradenko_2000 posted:this is sort of parallel to the Pathfinder discussion in the Industry thread, but it's kinda funny that a lot of Paizo organized play taps out at level 12 because the writers generally understood that that was about as high as you can go before players (read: casters) can really start to derail poo poo and people just generally went along with it thankfully paizo went to great lengths to actually fix this in 2e, it's real nice
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Nov 30, 2021 20:31
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Terrible Opinions posted:Between ten and twentyish depending on how you count them. Though most of those changes were the result of foreign invasion or the monarchy being restored and then a revolution against the new monarch. Galt has been stuck in Committee of Public Safety mode for 50 years somehow. With the somehow evidently being magic evil worm. That's why I said "when executed well". A country in a 50+ year long regime instability can be good fodder for stories and adventures. Hell, an eternal revolution land could work as a Ravenloft Domain. MonsieurChoc fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Nov 30, 2021 |
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Nov 30, 2021 20:44
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MonsieurChoc posted:That's why U said "when executed well". A countyr in a 50+ year long regime instability can be good fodder for stories and adventures. Every day the noble wakes up knowing they'll be facing the guillotine by evening, they just don't know who'll do it.
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Nov 30, 2021 20:47
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MonsieurChoc posted:That's why U said "when executed well". A countyr in a 50+ year long regime instability can be good fodder for stories and adventures.
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Nov 30, 2021 20:55
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Terrible Opinions posted:eugenics dragon- It took the devs a really long time to just use him as an actual bad guy rather than a weird unexamined setting element. The "Eugenics Dragon" actually looks like an interesting lore. It's hosed up but it makes sense that a Dragon (a creature that can destroy an entire city like we can do to an anthill) would see us like we see lesser animals such as dogs and horses and try to make a "better breed" of us.
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Nov 30, 2021 20:57
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Plutonis posted:The "Eugenics Dragon" actually looks like an interesting lore. It's hosed up but it makes sense that a Dragon (a creature that can destroy an entire city like we can do to an anthill) would see us like we see lesser animals such as dogs and horses and try to make a "better breed" of us. Yeah, paizo's been pretty good about building onto golarion lots of fun things that are only really gonna come to fruition years down the line. something like Mengkare (the "eugenics dragon") hanging around as a plothook for years is just good writing for the PCs to gently caress with, not some terrible assault on decency.
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Nov 30, 2021 21:00
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Terrible Opinions posted:The child molestor mechanics are the daemon Folca who gives powers that require child abuse to activate Was that something from the early days? A lot of the stuff from the first couple of years of Pathfinder leaned really heavily into the "Too edgy 4 u" vein before they eventually pivoted to a more inclusivity-focused brand image. It sounds like something that would be in line with the Hills Have Eyes-style hillbilly rapist ogres and other early PF weirdness.
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Nov 30, 2021 21:11
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KingKalamari posted:Was that something from the early days? A lot of the stuff from the first couple of years of Pathfinder leaned really heavily into the "Too edgy 4 u" vein before they eventually pivoted to a more inclusivity-focused brand image. It sounds like something that would be in line with the Hills Have Eyes-style hillbilly rapist ogres and other early PF weirdness. No, it was in the Book of the Damned hardcover, polished up from the Book of the Damned III softcover. Folca was a daemon harbinger so it fit, but it was also just "can we not do this in a D&D game?"
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Nov 30, 2021 21:13
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My problems come down a lot more to how James Sutter, the original creative owner of the character, talked about Mengkare than what actually made it to print after Sutter left Paizo. Namely an insistence that the dragon was in fact good and not at all evil.
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Nov 30, 2021 21:14
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Halloween Jack posted:Serious question: replace ability scores with what? Just skills? Splicer posted:Specifically in the case of D&D 5E? Skills and class choices. In 5e you pick a race a class a background and an archetype, that's a huge range of interactions to determine your to-hit, damage, saves, AC, initiative, and very good/good/OK/bad skills. Ability scores actually interfere with this. I've picked a warlock with the academic background and chosen arcana as a proficient skill, why do I also need to put points into intelligence to get my +5 to Know Demon Stuff? I've already picked Know Demon Stuff three times! When D&D, Pathfinder, and similar games have you picking a race, class, background, and other stuff which then gets "filtered" through ability scores before arriving at final skill totals, the ability scores are really not necessary. GimpInBlack posted:As an example, if a fighter needs a +4 Strength bonus to hit to be effective within the system's math, and additionally has various special abilities that key off of, say, Dex and Wisdom, instead of making it so that a player who puts less than an 18 in Strength and less than, say, 15 and 13 in either Dex or Wis, you can just say "Fighters get a +4 bonus to attack and damage; additionally, they allocate a +3 and a +1 between (ability set A) and (ability set B)." Then you can either ditch ability scores altogether, or use them in other ways such that your character's natural proclivities are a matter of roleplaying and characterization rather than all fighters needing to be pretty identical to function. Tuxedo Catfish posted:there are two interesting/positive uses for ability scores imo, neither of which are well-matched to ability scores as a mechanic Like in D&D 4e, your primary ability score will add to most/all of your attacks as well as several skills. You'll then choose some kind of subclass, which is effectively choosing a secondary ability score, which affects several skill totals as well as rider effects on combat powers. You have to choose between having a 20 (+5) in your primary stat and being more well-rounded; maybe you'll put a 12 (+1) in some tertiary score for the sake of your HP, or initiative, or to qualify for a feat or some other complicated reason. I wonder if these choices are really meaningful, and if so, how to present them to players. Ability scores manage that process, but in a haphazard way that's bad for all the reasons we've discussed, especially when players are already making several thematic choices during character creation that then get "filtered" through ability scores. (It seems to me that the biggest problem is that it's paradoxical--there are theoretically infinite possibilities, but only a handful that are actually good, so a system designed to give you options ends up enforcing sameness. If you wanted all 3rd-level rogues to be basically identical, you could just play Brown Box D&D and save a lot of time.) And on the other hand, there are very different ways to approach the D&D ruleset, like in the Black Hack: You only roll ability scores. 3-18 ability scores are meaningful because it's roll-under on a d20. Skills are replaced by character traits that either give you advantage (roll twice take best) or don't. This leads to another observation: In games that don't have classes or something like it, basic ability scores are the classes. If a player can't pick Rogue, they'll choose the stats that make them a good thief. The problem with most games that do this is that the ability scores are designed to be realistic, not thematic. No one puts points in Constitution because they plan to get beaten up and drink poison a whole lot.
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Nov 30, 2021 21:32
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gradenko_2000 posted:this is sort of parallel to the Pathfinder discussion in the Industry thread, but it's kinda funny that a lot of Paizo organized play taps out at level 12 because the writers generally understood that that was about as high as you can go before players (read: casters) can really start to derail poo poo and people just generally went along with it This is a good example, and really so is anything where the power-level starts getting in the way of storytelling in general*, but not specifically what I had in mind. I was thinking about like horror games and how so often they have tacked-on advancement mechanics that are at best orthogonal to their themes. There’s a very good reason why most (good) horror stories don’t have sequels** and some of the best horror is done in short stories. Horror is a strong spice and works best in small, fresh doses that can utilize a certain amount of consensual lack of agency and suspense. Coming back to the exact same well but with a bigger bucket is antithetical to most horror storytelling, but we still get rules for The Descent II with level 5 spelunkers vs mecha-bat monsters because that’s what D&D did. (One day I’ll stop being lazy and write my fiction-first horror storygame, because I’m deeply unsatisfied with everything on the market.) *Although one of the reasons I’m a big fan/apologist for Mage : the Awakening is that I really like how some of the capabilities of the characters, even at character creation, obviate classical obstacles and lead to new directions. **That don’t suck. I’m adding qualifiers specifically to rule out bullshit that cheapens the original story by extending it.
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Nov 30, 2021 21:44
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Yea, they don't think through much above level 12, which is a double problem when the first Fist of the Ruby Phoenix adventure starts at level 11. The amount of small print needed on the rules to account for what level 12 character could do in a battle royale was pretty ridiculous and I eventually had to fudge it as "actually, the GM-fiat-level demiplane creator who is running the tournament is an incredible sorceress but actually kinda sucks at running tournaments" And Mengkare - was he in the setting before 2e? Because I only remember him as trying to collect talented humans to live together in order to kill them all with the Anima Invocation?
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Nov 30, 2021 21:51
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Pathfinder 2e works fine in the higher levels tbh
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Nov 30, 2021 21:53
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Wasn't one of the Pathfinder leads really into Theosophism and trying to inject it in the game as much as possible?
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Nov 30, 2021 22:00
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MonsieurChoc posted:Wasn't one of the Pathfinder leads really into Theosophism and trying to inject it in the game as much as possible?
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Nov 30, 2021 23:42
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MonsieurChoc posted:Wasn't one of the Pathfinder leads really into Theosophism and trying to inject it in the game as much as possible? Yeah, Erik Mona is ultimately why Occult Adventures for Pathfinder 1e was full of Victorian occultism and orgone boxes and all that jazz. It's more of a "dipshit that doesn't know the things he likes are really iffy" vibe than "secretly Nazi-adjacent", but it's still... weird. At least the worst of those impulses seem to have been shaken out of 2e.
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Nov 30, 2021 23:59
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Leperflesh posted:regarding D&D character creators from last page... I still have .iso backups of both of those around somewhere just because they were one of the best RPG software packages I've ever seen, right up to this day. Like, only Comp/Con is in the same league.
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Dec 1, 2021 00:45
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Theosophism is cool, I have an uncle who was on a weird rear end Thelema cult (Novo Aeon) during the late 70s but he lent me some of his books.Terrible Opinions posted:My problems come down a lot more to how James Sutter, the original creative owner of the character, talked about Mengkare than what actually made it to print after Sutter left Paizo. Namely an insistence that the dragon was in fact good and not at all evil. That could be an interesting point, however. I'm going from the wiki but apparently the island only exiles those who fail the tests for staying into it, which makes the Dragon's action, as bizarre and unnerving as they are, not malicious or violent in nature and execution. Who knows, the freaking god-lizards might have a different view of morality!
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Dec 1, 2021 00:55
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Lurks With Wolves posted:orgone boxes and all that jizz
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Dec 1, 2021 01:40
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drrockso20 posted:All this talk of systemic change is reminding me of some posts over in the Goblin thread a while ago about Goblin Labor movements and how I started expanding that into a setting concept about a revolution among the underclasses against their overlords in what could be summed up as "Interdimensional Victorian British Empire but it's ruled by rear end in a top hat High Elves" that I should really start posting about somewhere cause it's a fun idea I need to get back into my jungle exploring campaign where (one of) the antagonists are basically that.
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Dec 1, 2021 04:53
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Isn’t it weird how you do all that work to make a D&D character and then when you put the pencil down your character has basically the same derived stats (attack bonus, ac) as everyone else in the party? Just print the to-hit-by-level table on the book!
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Dec 1, 2021 06:01
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But-but-but what if I want to make a Fighter who just sucks at everything for roleplay reasons? That thing that players totally want to do that doesn't make the game appreciably worse for almost everyone at the table?
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Dec 1, 2021 06:03
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Well I want to play a Fighter who is incredibly buff but sucks at fighting nonetheless! 
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Dec 1, 2021 06:06
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My Fighter has a 17 strength while yours has a 16 which means I'll get More Number in just a few levels but you will have to wait a few more after that! I'll be mathematically better half the time!
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Dec 1, 2021 06:43
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Siivola posted:Well I want to play a Fighter who is incredibly buff but sucks at fighting nonetheless! "My strength is not for violence, friends. My calling... is bending bars and lifting gates."
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