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Solaris 2.0 posted:Stop posting in bad faith and Google it yourself for once. I did and couldn't find anything about a Soviet project to exterminate Jews.
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 16:49 |
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# ? May 9, 2024 23:26 |
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Because he needed him to beat Hitler. Couldn't Lenin the Prescient find somebody to do that who wasn't a raging antisemite, who even supported antisemitic structure of the partisan movement in the middle of the war with Germany, who executed so many people because he saw Jews as disloyal? Are you one of the Lord Jesus' special boys who think that only Stalin, personally, could win the war, and not anybody else in his position who would have been less of a monumental gently caress up?
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 16:50 |
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Cpt_Obvious posted:I did and couldn't find anything about a Soviet project to exterminate Jews. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rootless_cosmopolitan quote:From 1946 onwards, then, when Andrei Zhdanov became director of Soviet cultural policy, Soviet rhetoric increasingly highlighted the goal of a pure Soviet culture freed from Western degeneration. This became apparent, for example, in a piece in the Soviet weekly Literaturnya gazeta in 1947, which denounced the claimed expressions of rootless cosmopolitanism as inimical to Soviet culture. From 1949 onwards, then, a new series of openly antisemitic purges and executions began across the Soviet Union and its satellite countries, when Jews were charged explicitly with harbouring an international Zionist cosmopolitanist conspiracy.
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 16:50 |
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While we're arguing about whether or not Russia should invade Ukraine and blah blah, assuming that the people who don't want Russia to invade the Ukraine are in the US, why should the people of the United States be chomping at the bit to get involved in another dumb loving war for reasons? Regardless of if Russia is funding all sorts of nazi poo poo elsewhere, why is it ok that the federal government of the US is providing arms to nazi poo poo at all? At best you're just throwing gasoline on a fire that almost certainly will escalate an invasion over time and at worst they'll go on to do all sorts of terrorist nazi poo poo and help the growing global world wide fascism movement. Its such a loving sham. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 16:51 |
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Alchenar posted:I'm with you on the lingustics but the underlying argument isn't really true. Russia had the opportunity to complain at every phase of NATO enlargement and didn't. The 2004 and 2009 enlargements happened under Putin's watch and he didn't make any fuss about it then. It also lets you save face when selling it. "We suck at diplomacy and our neighbors are no longer dependent on us" doesn't sell as well as "We are a great power and the West is killing us with a thousand cuts and we must do these things to protect our honor"
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 16:51 |
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I think I get your point now. Basically, what Russia needed was to get the full makeover, but no one involved wanted to try for that, so it ended up basically just being the Russian leadership grabbing a few bad ideas from the West and loving up their own country with them. Essentially (in terms on where responsibility lies) but I don't think I'd go as far as to say the problem was that Russia didn't do Shock Therapy 'properly'. The USSR was always a petrostate that worked by using the proceeds of oil and gas to subsidise the rest of the economy - the Soviet model needed to go but oil and gas revenue meant they probably had the option to roll on for quite some time slowly subsidising a transition to something else. They could probably have chosen not to do shock therapy at all. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Feb 14, 2022 |
# ? Feb 14, 2022 16:52 |
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One of my memories of my grandmother is her going through lists of WWII documents (published, to their credit, by Russian defense ministry online) for whatever she could find on her father, who didn't return from the War, and seeing many, many, Jewish names alongside his and going "... but they said we Jews didn't fight..."
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 16:54 |
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Alchenar posted:Essentially (in terms on where responsibility lies) but I don't think I'd go as far as to say the problem was that Russia didn't do Shock Therapy 'properly'. The USSR was always a petrostate that worked by using the proceeds of oil and gas to subsidise the rest of the economy - the Soviet model needed to go but oil and gas revenue meant they probably had the option to roll on for quite some time slowly subsidising a transition to something else. Russia was also still strong enough and proud enough that it didn't "need" outside help when the USSR collapsed. While other countries in Eastern Europe suddenly found their subsidies gone and needed help to get back on their feet, the member country that had been doing the subsidizing did not "need" or seek western assistance.
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 16:54 |
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pissinthewind posted:While we're arguing about whether or not Russia should invade Ukraine and blah blah, assuming that the people who don't want Russia to invade the Ukraine are in the US, why should the people of the United States be chomping at the bit to get involved in another dumb loving war for reasons? Regardless of if Russia is funding all sorts of nazi poo poo elsewhere, why is it ok that the federal government of the US is providing arms to nazi poo poo at all? At best you're just throwing gasoline on a fire that almost certainly will escalate an invasion over time and at worst they'll go on to do all sorts of terrorist nazi poo poo and help the growing global world wide fascism movement. Its such a loving sham. Putin is a fascist, and I believe that allowing him to engage in imperial wars of aggression without pushback is definitely helping grow the global world wide fascist movement.
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 16:54 |
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*sigh* if only Lenin could have killed all the antisemites smdh. OddObserver posted:Do you even know what the Black Hundreds were?
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 16:59 |
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How are u posted:Putin is a fascist, and I believe that allowing him to engage in imperial wars of aggression without pushback is definitely helping grow the global world wide fascist movement. It just doesn't really make sense to me to be rooting for either side in Ukraine/Russia right now, unless you're mostly worried about which country has the most imperialism I suppose. The rise of fascism is a major problem in the US that no one is doing anything about, but look over here! Nazi grandma is learning to shoot an AK to protect against Putin, everyone cheer? It just seems like Biden is trying to do the unity he promised by promoting nationalist imperialism, stoking the flames of war by sending Ukraine arms and riling up Russia, since domestic patriotism unity kind of poo poo the bed when he failed to accomplish pretty much anything. And honestly, having lived through that poo poo in the early 2000s, I genuinely can't believe grown rear end human beings are falling for it, again.
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 17:04 |
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pissinthewind posted:It just doesn't really make sense to me to be rooting for either side in Ukraine/Russia right now, unless you're mostly worried about which country has the most imperialism I suppose. The rise of fascism is a major problem in the US that no one is doing anything about, but look over here! Nazi grandma is learning to shoot an AK to protect against Putin, everyone cheer? It just seems like Biden is trying to do the unity he promised by promoting nationalist imperialism, stoking the flames of war by sending Ukraine arms and riling up Russia, since domestic patriotism unity kind of poo poo the bed when he failed to accomplish pretty much anything. And honestly, having lived through that poo poo in the early 2000s, I genuinely can't believe grown rear end human beings are falling for it, again. It does seem weird that people in this thread are talking about eastern europe and not the united states
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 17:07 |
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Cpt_Obvious posted:The Russian KKK. Relying on "Thing is just like thing in Aaamerica " is such a huge red flag when dealing with anybody online
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 17:08 |
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pissinthewind posted:It just doesn't really make sense to me to be rooting for either side in Ukraine/Russia right now, unless you're mostly worried about which country has the most imperialism I suppose. The rise of fascism is a major problem in the US that no one is doing anything about, but look over here! Nazi grandma is learning to shoot an AK to protect against Putin, everyone cheer? It just seems like Biden is trying to do the unity he promised by promoting nationalist imperialism, stoking the flames of war by sending Ukraine arms and riling up Russia, since domestic patriotism unity kind of poo poo the bed when he failed to accomplish pretty much anything. And honestly, having lived through that poo poo in the early 2000s, I genuinely can't believe grown rear end human beings are falling for it, again. Biden isn't "stoking the flames of war". The US, the EU, and Ukraine are all saying "don't invade Ukraine". Putin is threatening to invade Ukraine for who the heck knows what reasons. Probably because he's a fascist dictator who is past his prime domestically. Putin is the only one here who is "stoking the flames of war".
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 17:09 |
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I just want to point out, I didn't bring up Russia. Someone else pulled a whataboutism comparing the history of antisemitism in the Ukraine to that of Russia.
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 17:09 |
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Don’t engage. These people don’t know anything about Ukraine.
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 17:10 |
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pissinthewind posted:It just doesn't really make sense to me to be rooting for either side in Ukraine/Russia right now, unless you're mostly worried about which country has the most imperialism I suppose. The rise of fascism is a major problem in the US that no one is doing anything about, but look over here! Nazi grandma is learning to shoot an AK to protect against Putin, everyone cheer? It just seems like Biden is trying to do the unity he promised by promoting nationalist imperialism, stoking the flames of war by sending Ukraine arms and riling up Russia, since domestic patriotism unity kind of poo poo the bed when he failed to accomplish pretty much anything. And honestly, having lived through that poo poo in the early 2000s, I genuinely can't believe grown rear end human beings are falling for it, again. There has been a war, started by Russia for 8 loving years. There are more than 10,000 dead, millions forced out of their homes, and Russia has pulled up 2/3rds of their army to the border prepared to make those numbers much worse and it's Biden stroking war? Maybe you should start fighting fascism by being less racist, and noticing all the suffering and not making everything about the United States?
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 17:10 |
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Why are Ukrainians stoking the flames of war by not dropping dead and surrendering. They're very inconsiderate of my feelings.
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 17:10 |
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pissinthewind posted:It just doesn't really make sense to me to be rooting for either side in Ukraine/Russia right now, unless you're mostly worried about which country has the most imperialism I suppose. The rise of fascism is a major problem in the US that no one is doing anything about, but look over here! Nazi grandma is learning to shoot an AK to protect against Putin, everyone cheer? It just seems like Biden is trying to do the unity he promised by promoting nationalist imperialism, stoking the flames of war by sending Ukraine arms and riling up Russia, since domestic patriotism unity kind of poo poo the bed when he failed to accomplish pretty much anything. And honestly, having lived through that poo poo in the early 2000s, I genuinely can't believe grown rear end human beings are falling for it, again. The vast majority of people that want more progressive policies who make up the country that is being besieged by a Russian fascist regime do in fact deserve support even if your high horse riding American rear end disagrees. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Feb 14, 2022 |
# ? Feb 14, 2022 17:11 |
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pissinthewind posted:It just doesn't really make sense to me to be rooting for either side in Ukraine/Russia right now, unless you're mostly worried about which country has the most imperialism I suppose. The rise of fascism is a major problem in the US that no one is doing anything about, but look over here! Nazi grandma is learning to shoot an AK to protect against Putin, everyone cheer? It just seems like Biden is trying to do the unity he promised by promoting nationalist imperialism, stoking the flames of war by sending Ukraine arms and riling up Russia, since domestic patriotism unity kind of poo poo the bed when he failed to accomplish pretty much anything. And honestly, having lived through that poo poo in the early 2000s, I genuinely can't believe grown rear end human beings are falling for it, again. Well when Ukraine annexes southern Moldova or uses its military to attempt to extort absurd concessions it's not entitled to, I'll be sure to criticize Ukraine. This whataboutism is absurd. Russia has effectively annexed two portions of Ukraine in the past decade, and fomented a low-intensity civil war to boot. Ukraine has not done the same to Russia. They are not the same. They just aren't, by any measure you want to use.
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 17:11 |
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steinrokkan posted:Relying on "Thing is just like thing in Aaamerica " is such a huge red flag when dealing with anybody online That's fair, the black hundreds killed a lot more Jews than the kkk.
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 17:12 |
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Gripweed posted:This feels like a sign from god that maybe we shouldn't be giving Ukraine weapons Danger posted:I mean it certainly doesn’t help that western media just beams footage from neo-nazi militias and frames it like this near constantly: Posting info counter to the Western narrative in D&D. User loses posting privileges for one week! (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 17:13 |
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Cpt_Obvious posted:*sigh* if only Lenin could have killed all the antisemites smdh. That would be the majority of population. And KKK isn't a bad comparison, and just like them they weren't limited to a single bigotry --- they were very much anti-Ukrainian peoplehood as well. And that attitude... Well, it's been endorsed as high up as by Putin himself.
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 17:14 |
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Pook Good Mook posted:They just aren't, by any measure you want to use. I think for some people the measure they use is something like: "Anything the US stands for or wants must be bad. Opposing the US in any way is good." Which is how you see some folks on some parts of the internet work themselves into defending an imperial war of aggression and expansion, a kleptocracy poised to devour a democracy by force. This is why axiomatic, black and white, good and evil worldviews are dangerous and harm people.
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 17:16 |
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Alchenar posted:Essentially (in terms on where responsibility lies) but I don't think I'd go as far as to say the problem was that Russia didn't do Shock Therapy 'properly'. The USSR was always a petrostate that worked by using the proceeds of oil and gas to subsidise the rest of the economy - the Soviet model needed to go but oil and gas revenue meant they probably had the option to roll on for quite some time slowly subsidising a transition to something else. They could probably have chosen not to do shock therapy at all.
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 17:16 |
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OddObserver posted:That would be the majority of population. Yah, just to be clear: I'm not claiming that antisemitism wasn't rife through the USSR, just pointing out that it was the only government at the time taking any steps to quash it. And Putin can eat a hairy turd.
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 17:17 |
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Seems like tankies are massing forces on the border of the thread and doing probing incursions already (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 17:17 |
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Alchenar posted:I'm with you on the lingustics but the underlying argument isn't really true. Russia had the opportunity to complain at every phase of NATO enlargement and didn't. The 2004 and 2009 enlargements happened under Putin's watch and he didn't make any fuss about it then. again, page 106 here: https://clinton.presidentiallibraries.us/items/show/57569 the russian position on eastward nato expansion has been known since yelcin at the absolute latest. they made a fuss about it in the 90s ffs furthermore: this is from one of the wikileak cables https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html, from feb 2008. the usa/nato knows *exactly* what game they're playing with ukrainians, they just don't give a single poo poo about them
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 17:19 |
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Hi all, a few things-- If you have issues with D&D moderation and moderation of this thread, please take them to PMs to mods or Koos Group or QCS if you like. This thread is getting busy and it doesn't need to be clogged further. A reminder not to simply repeat common knowledge or the same thing over and over Koos Group posted:[*]Being boring. This could include making the same claim over and over in the same way, particularly when you're the one bringing it up, or repeating a very common talking point we're all likely to have heard before. This is subjective, so it will be enforced fairly leniently. There's been a lot of fairly low-content posting. I'd ask posters to try and keep their posts relevant to the current situation in Eastern Europe and make positive contributions to the discussion.
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 17:20 |
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GABA ghoul posted:Seems like tankies are massing forces on the border of the thread and doing probing incursions already They may take our freedom, but they'll never take our Olivier salad It was very considerate of Putin to make sure the civil war part came to be. mmkay fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Feb 14, 2022 |
# ? Feb 14, 2022 17:21 |
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Truga posted:again, page 106 here: Once again, apparently Ukrainians were sitting on the ground, lifeless as a sack of potatoes, their minds completely devoid of thought, until Westerners came along and filled their heads with ideas
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 17:22 |
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Truga posted:again, page 106 here: And Russia's response was to invade Georgia and do some ethnic cleansing. That doesn't really justify their NATO fear. This is like some guy invading his neighbors while ranting about the neighborhood association having too much power.
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 17:22 |
That just brings us back to the whole sovereignty and own agenda matter again, though. "Russian security interests" seem to boil down to being able to extort and invade Russia's neighbors whenever it feels like it.
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 17:22 |
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steinrokkan posted:Once again, apparently Ukrainians were sitting on the ground, lifeless as a sack of potatoes, their minds completely devoid of thought, until Westerners came along and filled their heads with ideas no, the westerners came along and made their situation explicitly worse in every way
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 17:23 |
CommieGIR posted:And Russia's response was to invade Georgia and do some ethnic cleansing. That doesn't really justify their NATO fear. This is like some guy invading his neighbors while ranting about the neighborhood association having too much power. Later, to attempt igniting civil war in Ukraine, that it so feared.
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 17:23 |
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Fritz the Horse posted:
Uhh, except it's not true for political part of the statement? Unless of course you agree with me that various incarnations of pro-Russian parties should count on account of their ethnic supremacist ideology, that is, though they are more weirdo populist than traditional far right. (Now militias? Well, more than 0 counts as too much).
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 17:25 |
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Truga posted:no, the westerners came along and made their situation explicitly worse in every way Jesus Christ. People are aware that a lot of countries didn't actually want to be in the USSR anymore right? Like, there's a reason it fell apart, and while western efforts had something to do with it, it was internal divisions, not external forces that brought down the Eastern Bloc.
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 17:25 |
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anilEhilated posted:That just brings us back to the whole sovereignty and own agenda matter again, though. "Russian security interests" seem to boil down to being able to extort and invade Russia's neighbors whenever it feels like it. Yeah. Due to MAD, Russia is in no true danger from NATO no matter how many nations join it. They're never going to be invaded since the cost of doing so would be catastrophic. This is purely about them not being able to bully and invade their neighbors.
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 17:27 |
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Truga posted:no, the westerners came along and made their situation explicitly worse in every way Oh yeah, about that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 17:28 |
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# ? May 9, 2024 23:26 |
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Cpt_Obvious posted:I don't think you can really separate the very long and very brutal history of antisemitism in the Ukraine from it's current predicament. Cpt_Obvious posted:I just want to point out, I didn't bring up Russia. Someone else pulled a whataboutism comparing the history of antisemitism in the Ukraine to that of Russia. pissinthewind posted:While we're arguing about whether or not Russia should invade Ukraine and blah blah, assuming that the people who don't want Russia to invade the Ukraine are in the US, why should the people of the United States be chomping at the bit to get involved in another dumb loving war for reasons? Regardless of if Russia is funding all sorts of nazi poo poo elsewhere, why is it ok that the federal government of the US is providing arms to nazi poo poo at all? At best you're just throwing gasoline on a fire that almost certainly will escalate an invasion over time and at worst they'll go on to do all sorts of terrorist nazi poo poo and help the growing global world wide fascism movement. Its such a loving sham. Why do these posts have to repeat this same tired dogwhistle? You are not being clever or funny.
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# ? Feb 14, 2022 17:30 |