Solaris 2.0 posted:

Stop posting in bad faith and Google it yourself for once.

Cpt_Obvious posted:

Because he needed him to beat Hitler.

Cpt_Obvious posted:

I did and couldn't find anything about a Soviet project to exterminate Jews.

quote:

From 1946 onwards, then, when Andrei Zhdanov became director of Soviet cultural policy, Soviet rhetoric increasingly highlighted the goal of a pure Soviet culture freed from Western degeneration. This became apparent, for example, in a piece in the Soviet weekly Literaturnya gazeta in 1947, which denounced the claimed expressions of rootless cosmopolitanism as inimical to Soviet culture. From 1949 onwards, then, a new series of openly antisemitic purges and executions began across the Soviet Union and its satellite countries, when Jews were charged explicitly with harbouring an international Zionist cosmopolitanist conspiracy.
....
The campaign against cosmopolitanism of the 1940s and 1950s [...] defined rootless cosmopolitans as citizens who lacked patriotism and disseminated foreign influence within the USSR, including theater critics, Yiddish-speaking poets and doctors. They were accused of disseminating Western European philosophies of aesthetics, pro-American attitudes, Zionism, or inappropriate levels of concern for Jewry and its destruction during World War II. The phrase "rootless cosmopolitan" was synonymous with "persons without identity" and "passportless wanderers" when applied to Jews, thus emphasizing their status as strangers and outsiders.

Alchenar posted:

I'm with you on the lingustics but the underlying argument isn't really true. Russia had the opportunity to complain at every phase of NATO enlargement and didn't. The 2004 and 2009 enlargements happened under Putin's watch and he didn't make any fuss about it then.

The issue here is not NATO, it's that Russia sees its neighbours westernising and sees itself losing what little soft power it had left with them. 'NATO threatens us' is just the argument being thrown up because that's far more plapable than 'we don't like losing our client states'.

A Buttery Pastry posted:

I think I get your point now. Basically, what Russia needed was to get the full makeover, but no one involved wanted to try for that, so it ended up basically just being the Russian leadership grabbing a few bad ideas from the West and loving up their own country with them.

Alchenar posted:

Essentially (in terms on where responsibility lies) but I don't think I'd go as far as to say the problem was that Russia didn't do Shock Therapy 'properly'. The USSR was always a petrostate that worked by using the proceeds of oil and gas to subsidise the rest of the economy - the Soviet model needed to go but oil and gas revenue meant they probably had the option to roll on for quite some time slowly subsidising a transition to something else.

pissinthewind posted:

While we're arguing about whether or not Russia should invade Ukraine and blah blah, assuming that the people who don't want Russia to invade the Ukraine are in the US, why should the people of the United States be chomping at the bit to get involved in another dumb loving war for reasons? Regardless of if Russia is funding all sorts of nazi poo poo elsewhere, why is it ok that the federal government of the US is providing arms to nazi poo poo at all? At best you're just throwing gasoline on a fire that almost certainly will escalate an invasion over time and at worst they'll go on to do all sorts of terrorist nazi poo poo and help the growing global world wide fascism movement. Its such a loving sham.

CommieGIR posted:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rootless_cosmopolitan

OddObserver posted:

Do you even know what the Black Hundreds were?

How are u posted:

Putin is a fascist, and I believe that allowing him to engage in imperial wars of aggression without pushback is definitely helping grow the global world wide fascist movement.

pissinthewind posted:

It just doesn't really make sense to me to be rooting for either side in Ukraine/Russia right now, unless you're mostly worried about which country has the most imperialism I suppose. The rise of fascism is a major problem in the US that no one is doing anything about, but look over here! Nazi grandma is learning to shoot an AK to protect against Putin, everyone cheer? It just seems like Biden is trying to do the unity he promised by promoting nationalist imperialism, stoking the flames of war by sending Ukraine arms and riling up Russia, since domestic patriotism unity kind of poo poo the bed when he failed to accomplish pretty much anything. And honestly, having lived through that poo poo in the early 2000s, I genuinely can't believe grown rear end human beings are falling for it, again.

Cpt_Obvious posted:

The Russian KKK.

pissinthewind posted:

It just doesn't really make sense to me to be rooting for either side in Ukraine/Russia right now, unless you're mostly worried about which country has the most imperialism I suppose. The rise of fascism is a major problem in the US that no one is doing anything about, but look over here! Nazi grandma is learning to shoot an AK to protect against Putin, everyone cheer? It just seems like Biden is trying to do the unity he promised by promoting nationalist imperialism, stoking the flames of war by sending Ukraine arms and riling up Russia, since domestic patriotism unity kind of poo poo the bed when he failed to accomplish pretty much anything. And honestly, having lived through that poo poo in the early 2000s, I genuinely can't believe grown rear end human beings are falling for it, again.

pissinthewind posted:

It just doesn't really make sense to me to be rooting for either side in Ukraine/Russia right now, unless you're mostly worried about which country has the most imperialism I suppose. The rise of fascism is a major problem in the US that no one is doing anything about, but look over here! Nazi grandma is learning to shoot an AK to protect against Putin, everyone cheer? It just seems like Biden is trying to do the unity he promised by promoting nationalist imperialism, stoking the flames of war by sending Ukraine arms and riling up Russia, since domestic patriotism unity kind of poo poo the bed when he failed to accomplish pretty much anything. And honestly, having lived through that poo poo in the early 2000s, I genuinely can't believe grown rear end human beings are falling for it, again.

pissinthewind posted:

It just doesn't really make sense to me to be rooting for either side in Ukraine/Russia right now, unless you're mostly worried about which country has the most imperialism I suppose. The rise of fascism is a major problem in the US that no one is doing anything about, but look over here! Nazi grandma is learning to shoot an AK to protect against Putin, everyone cheer? It just seems like Biden is trying to do the unity he promised by promoting nationalist imperialism, stoking the flames of war by sending Ukraine arms and riling up Russia, since domestic patriotism unity kind of poo poo the bed when he failed to accomplish pretty much anything. And honestly, having lived through that poo poo in the early 2000s, I genuinely can't believe grown rear end human beings are falling for it, again.

pissinthewind posted:

It just doesn't really make sense to me to be rooting for either side in Ukraine/Russia right now, unless you're mostly worried about which country has the most imperialism I suppose. The rise of fascism is a major problem in the US that no one is doing anything about, but look over here! Nazi grandma is learning to shoot an AK to protect against Putin, everyone cheer? It just seems like Biden is trying to do the unity he promised by promoting nationalist imperialism, stoking the flames of war by sending Ukraine arms and riling up Russia, since domestic patriotism unity kind of poo poo the bed when he failed to accomplish pretty much anything. And honestly, having lived through that poo poo in the early 2000s, I genuinely can't believe grown rear end human beings are falling for it, again.

steinrokkan posted:

Relying on "Thing is just like thing in Aaamerica " is such a huge red flag when dealing with anybody online

Gripweed posted:

This feels like a sign from god that maybe we shouldn't be giving Ukraine weapons



(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Danger posted:

I mean it certainly doesn’t help that western media just beams footage from neo-nazi militias and frames it like this near constantly:

https://twitter.com/mossrobeson__/status/1493001855521202185?s=21

Cpt_Obvious posted:

*sigh* if only Lenin could have killed all the antisemites smdh.

The Russian KKK.

Pook Good Mook posted:

They just aren't, by any measure you want to use.

Alchenar posted:

Essentially (in terms on where responsibility lies) but I don't think I'd go as far as to say the problem was that Russia didn't do Shock Therapy 'properly'. The USSR was always a petrostate that worked by using the proceeds of oil and gas to subsidise the rest of the economy - the Soviet model needed to go but oil and gas revenue meant they probably had the option to roll on for quite some time slowly subsidising a transition to something else. They could probably have chosen not to do shock therapy at all.

OddObserver posted:

That would be the majority of population.

And KKK isn't a bad comparison, and just like them they weren't limited to a single bigotry --- they were very much anti-Ukrainian peoplehood as well. And that attitude... Well, it's been endorsed as high up as by Putin himself.

Alchenar posted:

I'm with you on the lingustics but the underlying argument isn't really true. Russia had the opportunity to complain at every phase of NATO enlargement and didn't. The 2004 and 2009 enlargements happened under Putin's watch and he didn't make any fuss about it then.

Koos Group posted:

[*]Being boring. This could include making the same claim over and over in the same way, particularly when you're the one bringing it up, or repeating a very common talking point we're all likely to have heard before. This is subjective, so it will be enforced fairly leniently.

GABA ghoul posted:

Seems like tankies are massing forces on the border of the thread and doing probing incursions already

Truga posted:

Truga posted:

again, page 106 here:
https://clinton.presidentiallibraries.us/items/show/57569
the russian position on eastward nato expansion has been known since yelcin at the absolute latest. they made a fuss about it in the 90s ffs

furthermore:


this is from one of the wikileak cables https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html, from feb 2008. the usa/nato knows *exactly* what game they're playing with ukrainians, they just don't give a single poo poo about them

Truga posted:

again, page 106 here:
https://clinton.presidentiallibraries.us/items/show/57569
the russian position on eastward nato expansion has been known since yelcin at the absolute latest. they made a fuss about it in the 90s ffs

furthermore:


this is from one of the wikileak cables https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html, from feb 2008. the usa/nato knows *exactly* what game they're playing with ukrainians, they just don't give a single poo poo about them

steinrokkan posted:

Once again, apparently Ukrainians were sitting on the ground, lifeless as a sack of potatoes, their minds completely devoid of thought, until Westerners came along and filled their heads with ideas

CommieGIR posted:

And Russia's response was to invade Georgia and do some ethnic cleansing. That doesn't really justify their NATO fear. This is like some guy invading his neighbors while ranting about the neighborhood association having too much power.

Fritz the Horse posted:

As in the quote above, this will be enforced pretty leniently. Most of us were aware that Ukraine has a significant far-right (neo-Nazi, fascist, whatever terms you feel appropriate) political element and paramilitaries.

Truga posted:

no, the westerners came along and made their situation explicitly worse in every way

anilEhilated posted:

That just brings us back to the whole sovereignty and own agenda matter again, though. "Russian security interests" seem to boil down to being able to extort and invade Russia's neighbors whenever it feels like it.

Truga posted:

no, the westerners came along and made their situation explicitly worse in every way

Cpt_Obvious posted:

I don't think you can really separate the very long and very brutal history of antisemitism in the Ukraine from it's current predicament.

Cpt_Obvious posted:

I just want to point out, I didn't bring up Russia. Someone else pulled a whataboutism comparing the history of antisemitism in the Ukraine to that of Russia.

pissinthewind posted:

While we're arguing about whether or not Russia should invade Ukraine and blah blah, assuming that the people who don't want Russia to invade the Ukraine are in the US, why should the people of the United States be chomping at the bit to get involved in another dumb loving war for reasons? Regardless of if Russia is funding all sorts of nazi poo poo elsewhere, why is it ok that the federal government of the US is providing arms to nazi poo poo at all? At best you're just throwing gasoline on a fire that almost certainly will escalate an invasion over time and at worst they'll go on to do all sorts of terrorist nazi poo poo and help the growing global world wide fascism movement. Its such a loving sham.