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Aginor posted:Can I ask how many of you are trans or transitioning? Just so I can get a read of the room? In general, one should refrain from asking personal questions of others in D&D, because it can be seen as attempting to dismiss their arguments based on who they are rather than the quality and evidence of what they're saying. The only exception is when they're talking about their own personal experience to support what they're saying.
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# ? Apr 7, 2022 23:07 |
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# ? Jun 5, 2024 03:52 |
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Aginor posted:So Lia Thomas sits where here? She's 1.85m tall according to wikipedia. These are the tallest women to win a medal (not just to participate) in Olympic swimming: https://twitter.com/SwimmingStats/status/1437492890561822722 You tell me where she sits and how unfair her existence is to other female swimmers.
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# ? Apr 7, 2022 23:10 |
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Aginor posted:Respect to that. I straight up said don't be a part of this. Stop giving a gently caress and everyone's lives will get better
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# ? Apr 7, 2022 23:13 |
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PT6A posted:If we're concerned about muscle density and skeletal changes and whatever else male puberty is accused of causing which allows trans women to perform better than cis women in certain disciplines, should there be tests of those specific genetic variations in cis women in order to maintain fairness? If a cis woman is too tall, or their feet are too big or their hands are too big, or whatever else, do we judge that they are physiologically "insufficiently feminine" to compete fairly against women? I don't know as much about ice skating but my understanding is the silver medalist Russian who threw a tantrum was largely correct about having the better performance and got judged against for not meeting the standards of feminine excellence with respect to unquantifiable dancing and grace and whatnot
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# ? Apr 7, 2022 23:20 |
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Anticheese posted:I'm trans and on estrogen. Anecdotes are not data, but my physical strength is totally hosed to the point that a bag containing two moderately large and one small laptops is maybe my carrying limit. I too am on estrogen (and spironolactone, which I assume you are as well. For the uninitiated, it's a very efficient testosterone blocker and also an annoyingly good diuretic. And progesterone. But I digress). It took all of three months for things to start getting heavier. I work in a Whole Foods (gently caress Bezos and Mackey), and I was pushing carts and getting bag bundles, and goddamn if that poo poo didn't get heavier and heavier. Not going to lie, the ever-increasing physical strain of my job was part of what drove me to transfer to the bakery (the other parts being that management there is better and the department contains multiple queer people). My testosterone levels are on the low end for a woman, these days. Like, hormones are crazy powerful. Vastly more powerful than some useless rear end sex chromosomes, and vastly more determinative of physical traits. But a lot of people are extremely invested in the idea that men and women are diametrically different mostly that men are superior and cannot bear to have that world view destroyed by the existence of trans people (but especially trans women).
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# ? Apr 7, 2022 23:39 |
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I've read this entire thread, and noticed a similar pattern to when I have this discussion on social media: People make broad claims about the unfairness of transgender people, say their opinion is "science", and then refuse to back them up and declare that someone is ridiculous for even doubting them. Then as they continue to participate in debate, yet refuse to back up anything, people who respond to them escalate their replies to continued unsupported transphobia. Is that the kind of discussion pattern the moderation staff would like to foster on this subject? The only data, links, resources and citations that have been posted in this thread have been on one side of the debate. Otherwise we have a rotating group of posters who kramer in, make some claims, and then bail when asked to provide data while the posters who are on version 3 or 4 of that same poster are getting increasingly upset at the lack of rigor.
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# ? Apr 7, 2022 23:41 |
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mastershakeman posted:We've effectively always had this with the judged women's sports like ice skating and gymnastics. Look at the Liukin vs Shawn Johnson rivalry, where the announcers and judges oohed and aahed over Liukin's "elegance". It's part of the whining about difficulty scores giving people like Biles too much of an edge because she's stronger and can do more spins Figure skating is a good discussion point. Before gender separation, in 1902, a woman placed 2nd in the world championships. Immediately after, women were banned from competing and then a women-only category was introduced but not held for a few years after. PT6A posted:I also really resent the implication that you must be trans to give a poo poo about the rights and fundamental human dignity of trans people. That post deserves way more than a 6hr. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Apr 7, 2022 |
# ? Apr 7, 2022 23:45 |
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I also really resent the implication that you must be trans to give a poo poo about the rights and fundamental human dignity of trans people. It's like saying "oh, you think Black lives matter? Huh, I wonder how many of you are Black..."
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# ? Apr 7, 2022 23:48 |
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Jaxyon posted:Figure skating is a good discussion point. Probably for the same reason boys don't want to wrestle girls. Weight classes pretty much solve the issue of fairness, and there's some very talented female wrestlers. But its a terrible time for the boy going up against them - win, and you've merely 'beaten a girl', lose and hoo boy are you gonna hear it from your teammates. When I was in that sport in high school there was an excellent female wrestler in the county that absolutely everyone avoided until they had to face her at state meets.
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# ? Apr 7, 2022 23:53 |
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mastershakeman posted:Probably for the same reason boys don't want to wrestle girls. Weight classes pretty much solve the issue of fairness, and there's some very talented female wrestlers. But its a terrible time for the boy going up against them - win, and you've merely 'beaten a girl', lose and hoo boy are you gonna hear it from your teammates. When I was in that sport in high school there was an excellent female wrestler in the county that absolutely everyone avoided until they had to face her at state meets. I think it's important to call that out for what it is, though: unabashed sexism. Like I said in an earlier post, I was born with a disability. Not enough of one that, as far as I know, I could compete in para events, but enough that I was always pretty solidly worse than most people at physical things including sports. Like, what, beating me would be more honorable than losing to a highly skilled, fit woman? In what world? It's just sexist bullshit.
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# ? Apr 8, 2022 00:06 |
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Aginor posted:She is built like a male swimmer. This is Katie Ledecky, a cisgender woman swimmer that has 10 seconds on Lia, a huge gap in high level competitive swimming. This is Lia. Please share the standards you are using to judge her build. quote:She needs time to go through her transition and then once that's done she should be allowed to compete as much as she wants. She has spent the required amount of time already(1 year for the NCAA) of HRT/T-suppression. I posted the requirements in the 3rd post of this thread. What longer does she need and what science do you have to base that on?
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# ? Apr 8, 2022 00:06 |
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Aginor PM'd me within seconds of that post btw.
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# ? Apr 8, 2022 00:09 |
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Aginor, please consider you could do something more fulfilling with your time than obsessing over groups of people you most likely have nothing to do with. Maybe you could play a sport. E: lol he pm'd me too with "go on" E2: "he did it again! Alert those church elders, chief" Can we throw this guy a ban for being a harassing pest instead of taking that ridiculously gentle six hours to chill? Anticheese fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Apr 8, 2022 |
# ? Apr 8, 2022 00:11 |
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Jaxyon posted:Aginor PM'd me within seconds of that post btw. They pm'd me to say "women have wombs"
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# ? Apr 8, 2022 00:21 |
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PT6A posted:I think it's important to call that out for what it is, though: unabashed sexism. Like I said in an earlier post, I was born with a disability. Not enough of one that, as far as I know, I could compete in para events, but enough that I was always pretty solidly worse than most people at physical things including sports. Like, what, beating me would be more honorable than losing to a highly skilled, fit woman? In what world? It's just sexist bullshit. Yes, it is. The disability thing actually came up in wrestling too - one of our teams lightweight wrestlers (I think 118 but can't remember) has a genetic issue where his leg didn't work right and he always walked with a severe limp. He had to kind of hop when trying to circle, and every opponent would go for his strong leg and take him down. But he had good upper body strength and his senior year he was able to pin an opponent. Our whole team went wild and rushed the mat to congratulate him The guy who lost was completely humiliated Same thing happened in football where an opposing team had a one armed receiver. He scored a TD (he was super fast and got open) and the defender got absolutely berated for getting beat by a one armed guy The moral of these anecdotes is that teenagers are jerks
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# ? Apr 8, 2022 00:21 |
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Jaxyon posted:
https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/trans-women-retain-athletic-edge-after-year-hormone-therapy-study-n1252764 Seems like 1 year might not be enough. Personally I think they should be allowed to compete but how long after transitioning and on HRT seems to be what needs to be established and it's drat hard to give a blanket answer because clearly it's also going to differ per sport. Sprinting vs long distance running for example. Say transgender women in power lifting retained even a 10% advantage over their cis competitors after being on HRT for just a year but that advantage was reduced to practically zero after two then it seems fair to have them have to wait the 2 years before being allowed to compete.
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# ? Apr 8, 2022 00:21 |
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Just Chamber posted:https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/trans-women-retain-athletic-edge-after-year-hormone-therapy-study-n1252764 None of this would be a problem if trans people received care quickly and efficiently before/during the early stages of puberty, but, oddly, most of the people pushing to ban trans people from sports are also pushing to ban us from transitioning. Doesn't that give you pause? Kurgarra Queen fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Apr 8, 2022 |
# ? Apr 8, 2022 00:47 |
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Jaxyon posted:I've read this entire thread, and noticed a similar pattern to when I have this discussion on social media: I would not like to foster that, which is why if someone refuses to provide evidence when challenged with counter-evidence, they'll be probed for bad faith. I've also thought about instituting a rule where controversial statements of fact need to be backed up in the same post in threads where it's called for, but that does preclude discussion that comes from refuting common unsupported statements. So there is some trade-off. The rule would also apply to everyone equally, of course.
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# ? Apr 8, 2022 00:50 |
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Koos Group posted:I would not like to foster that, which is why if someone refuses to provide evidence when challenged with counter-evidence, they'll be probed for bad faith. I've also thought about instituting a rule where controversial statements of fact need to be backed up in the same post in threads where it's called for, but that does preclude discussion that comes from refuting common unsupported statements. So there is some trade-off. The rule would also apply to everyone equally, of course. That's cool! Thank you. What about poo poo like this: RealityWarCriminal posted:They pm'd me to say "women have wombs"
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# ? Apr 8, 2022 00:59 |
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ram dass in hell posted:That's cool! Thank you. What about poo poo like this: That user is being banned for that.
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# ? Apr 8, 2022 01:01 |
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Yeah they are being dealt with.
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# ? Apr 8, 2022 01:08 |
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gj mods, ty
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# ? Apr 8, 2022 01:16 |
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Previous page in the thread has like 6 total posts without probe avatars rn I love the wildness factor unironically
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# ? Apr 8, 2022 01:30 |
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Koos Group posted:That user is being banned for that. Good! Bloody disgraceful it went on that long!
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# ? Apr 8, 2022 01:33 |
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Staluigi posted:Previous page in the thread has like 6 total posts without probe avatars rn I love the wildness factor unironically Last page is wild. Can't win them all though
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# ? Apr 8, 2022 01:36 |
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Anybody else thinking this person's a rereg?
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# ? Apr 8, 2022 01:50 |
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Who me? Long time lurker but disappointed in what I saw so i finally registered!
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# ? Apr 8, 2022 01:54 |
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Well, welcome, and here's to better contributors
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# ? Apr 8, 2022 01:55 |
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Please refrain from further posting about posters. If this person is someone who shouldn't be here, we'll handle it.
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# ? Apr 8, 2022 01:56 |
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I do have a trans question in general. Not about the sports stuff. I do appreciate the fact that this thread clearly goes over this sports poo poo is bullshit, and I'll use it when dealing with the one friend who usually says "trans folks are fine, but what about those sports..." (Yes, this friend is cool minus listening to Joe Rogen and those kind of things). My question is on age of transitioning. I'm hearing a lot of personal stories from parents where therapists schools take troubled kids right away and suggest they're trans. Again, there is a huge difference between a kid that at age two is very cleary trans (and I've met a few) who want surgery hormones before puberty. Totally cool with that. But I'm Leary of teens who suddenly in a group of five all decide they're trans at 14, didn't really exhibit signs of that before hand, and then demand surgery. I know one family in particular where the kid at 14 came they were trans, and when the parents said they wanted the teen to wait till 18 because they both didn't want to/couldn't afford right then to pay for the surgery, and the teen acted like their parents were transphobic. I'm not saying people shouldn't transition at a young age, but when it's starting to be suggested by outside influences versus from the child, I get leery. "Puberty shouldn't be so hard, they just want to feel right in their body". I get those arguments, but I'm sorry, I hated my body when I was going through puberty too. There's also an argument about consent here. Teens can't consent till they're adults but life altering surges yes? (I know, parents permission needed, but again, a lot of this feels trendy?) basically, all of this is me saying I"m wondering if there is a push to transition for some teens because it sets you apart, versus because they're actually trans, and if there's a way of balancing the surgery approach. I bring this up because I saw a video by a woman who d-transitioned, and her experience of how much harassment she got for documenting it, and how she felt her transition was partly pushed on her in the first place. Another video (a tick Tok) was by a native trans person talking about the need for it to be surgery is also a very western way of thinking of trans people, and isn't necessary always. So basically, my question to this thread is this, is the rate of trans people always just been higher and now trans folks feel more comfortable coming out, or is there a certain level of societal acceptance/a trend that maybe pushes for surgeries. Again, I'm pro trans right. Everyone's valid, all that. This thread has thrown out a lot of good stats, so help me here please. My bullshit detector has gone off here about the overall numbers/trend, because I've been around liberal/privileged folks a lot of my life and know how often they're loving terrible while pretending to be the good guys, and I've known a few parents that would 100% try to manipulate their kid into stating their trans if it helped give them 'clout'. They did not do this, (their kids are too old now) but there are those folks out there. LionArcher fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Apr 8, 2022 |
# ? Apr 8, 2022 01:57 |
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Anticheese posted:Well, welcome, and here's to better contributors Thanks! Will try to provide better discourse than some of the stuff I've seen!
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# ? Apr 8, 2022 01:58 |
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LionArcher posted:I do have a trans question in general. Not about the sports stuff. I do appreciate the fact that this thread clearly goes over this sports poo poo is bullshit, and I'll use it when dealing with the one friend who usually says "trans folks are fine, but what about those sports..." (Yes, this friend is cool minus listening to Joe Rogen and those kind of things). People don't just get together and decide! And its not some kind of group hysteria! You know who youre meant to be! Careful. Its not a choice!
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# ? Apr 8, 2022 02:11 |
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LionArcher posted:I do have a trans question in general. Not about the sports stuff. I do appreciate the fact that this thread clearly goes over this poo poo is bullshit, and I'll use it when dealing with the one friend who usually says "trans stuff is fine, but what about those sports..." (Yes, this friend is cool minus listening to Joe Rogen and those kind of things). From my understanding: it's essentially impossible to get gender-affirming surgery as a minor. It's simply not happening, no matter how much anyone involved says they desire it. Again, from my understanding, the current standard of care given to trans minors is, at most, puberty blockers, which are not permanent for obvious reasons, and are also used in treatment of precocious puberty in cis children. I tend to agree that minors should not be making permanent, life-altering decisions, like those involved with gender-affirming surgery -- after all, even many adult trans people choose not to partake of those surgeries, because it's not like a fairy waves a magic wand and BAM you're the opposite gender now! And, as you say, the focus on what's going on in someone's bathing suit region isn't really the deciding factor of what makes someone trans or not. On the other hand, I think it's also impermissible to say that the best course of action is "no treatment" because puberty is, indeed, a very permanent change even if it's naturally-occurring. Finally, as a cis person, I just find it really, really unlikely that any teenager is thinking "you know what? I'm sick of the dick, YEET!" on a whim. It doesn't make common sense that a person who is not questioning their gender in a very real and legitimate sense would suddenly "decide" that they're trans. If you are comfortable with your gender assigned at birth, the changes associated with puberty are largely positive -- just as they are for trans people who get the right hormones all of a sudden and poo poo finally feels right.
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# ? Apr 8, 2022 02:14 |
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krooslove posted:People don't just get together and decide! And its not some kind of group hysteria! You know who youre meant to be! Careful. Its not a choice! If I said choice, I misspoke. Trans men are men. Trans woman are women. I was asking a question partly because this felt like a safe space where I wouldn't immediately get piled on called a terrible person for asking a question I wondered about. I want to be wrong about it being a "trend" versus something that people are finally getting the health care they should have had for years. The post right after yours I think does a great job of doing that.
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# ? Apr 8, 2022 02:28 |
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PT6A posted:From my understanding: it's essentially impossible to get gender-affirming surgery as a minor. It's simply not happening, no matter how much anyone involved says they desire it. Again, from my understanding, the current standard of care given to trans minors is, at most, puberty blockers, which are not permanent for obvious reasons, and are also used in treatment of precocious puberty in cis children. Great post, and thanks for answering my questions.
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# ? Apr 8, 2022 02:29 |
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Having queer people in your friend and peer group can make it way easier to ask questions about your own experiences and come to conclusions about your identity when those experiences don't match the popular narrative. No teens are getting together to go "lol let's be trans. As a bit." The only thing to gain from declaring your gender identity is different from what others think it is? A life more authentic to yourself. Everything else gets harder, and that life is chosen in spite of that. E: the love and support of those close to you is also an amazing thing
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# ? Apr 8, 2022 02:32 |
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I would also say, if it seems like "a group" is doing it, maybe they were a group because they recognized they had things in common prior to connecting all the dots, even if they weren't sure what it was. The fact that several people in a peer group would all come out at once is by no means evidence that it's based on trends or peer pressure; it could equally be that they all finally feel supported and safe to do so. EDIT: And again: if you're a cis person, what is your natural reaction to the idea of transitioning gender? It's probably not real fuckin desirable, because just like trans people feel that they ought to transition to live as their authentic selves, the vast majority of cis people *also* feel their gender identity is important and good -- it's just that they've never had to think about it or do anything about it. If you're a man, you prefer living as a man; if you're a woman, you prefer living as a woman. If you are non-binary/intersex poo poo gets really complicated but you find your own way. This applies whether you are trans or cis, it's just that us cis people don't need to do anything about it. PT6A fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Apr 8, 2022 |
# ? Apr 8, 2022 02:40 |
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PT6A posted:From my understanding: it's essentially impossible to get gender-affirming surgery as a minor. It's simply not happening, no matter how much anyone involved says they desire it. Again, from my understanding, the current standard of care given to trans minors is, at most, puberty blockers, which are not permanent for obvious reasons, and are also used in treatment of precocious puberty in cis children. Like, LionArcher posted:I do have a trans question in general. Not about the sports stuff. I do appreciate the fact that this thread clearly goes over this sports poo poo is bullshit, and I'll use it when dealing with the one friend who usually says "trans folks are fine, but what about those sports..." (Yes, this friend is cool minus listening to Joe Rogen and those kind of things). https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2018/04/analysis-finds-strong-consensus-effectiveness-gender-transition-treatment Here're the conclusions: quote:Of 56 peer-reviewed studies, 52 (93 percent) found that gender transition improves the overall well-being of transgender people. The other 7 percent reported mixed or null findings. None of the reviewed studies showed that gender transition harms well-being. https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/media-s-detransition-narrative-fueling-misconceptions-trans-advocates-say-n1102686 These article provides two studies on the matter: quote:The information that does exist appears to corroborate Asquith’s claim. In a 2015 survey of nearly 28,000 people conducted by the U.S.-based National Center for Transgender Equality, only 8 percent of respondents reported detransitioning, and 62 percent of those people said they only detransitioned temporarily. The most common reason for detransitioning, according to the survey, was pressure from a parent, while only 0.4 percent of respondents said they detransitioned after realizing transitioning wasn’t right for them. quote:The results of a 50-year survey published in 2010 of a cohort of 767 transgender people in Sweden found that about 2 percent of participants expressed regret after undergoing gender-affirming surgery. In my experience, I saw a therapist for months before I began considering HRT. I went to an informed consent clinic, which means you sit down with a medical professional who explains, in excruciating detail, what HRT will do to your body. The words I remember most are, "In about 2-4 months, you will begin developing breasts. And those are yours to keep, even if you decide to stop taking hormones." I heard all about the health problems I can potentially look forward to: breast cancer, osteoperosis and osteopenia. I wasn't sure I wanted to start then when I walked in, but when she asked me if I wanted a prescription now or if I wanted to think on it and come back in a few months, I told her I wanted them then and now. Like, literally no one at any point pressured me to do this.
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# ? Apr 8, 2022 02:45 |
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Yeah, I am sure you've heard stories like that, but I think the idea of kids becoming trans out of a trend or fun just doesn't exist. The risks are way too high. My trans children I teach deal with so much poo poo, it's really not worth it for shits and giggles. As far as the transition stuff, I don't think you understand how traumatizing going through non-affirming puberty is. Hormone therapy can do a lot, but it can't do everything. I'm a ginger, so removing my beard hair would cost a lot of money I can't justify taking away from my son. So, I spend a lot of time shaving, cleaning my face every morning, opening my pores, closing my pores, avoiding razor burn, and applying makeup. My boobs are always going to look a bit off. I think worse than body insecurities, I do feel a profound sadness that I came to my trans identity in my thirties. I've always had female friends and so desperately I could have been my true self with them when I was young and while I earnestly look pretty cute, I'm kinda sad I couldn't experience being cute in my 20s. Going through male puberty as a feminine person is horrible, and I'm not exaggerating when I say traumatizing. It's hard to not get over the sadness of not having the formative experiences that would make me feel complete. As someone who also works with gender conforming kids, I don't buy the idea of therapists and teachers railroading kids into being trans. In fact, I often take the opposite direction. Some kids are non-binary and non-conforming and will ask, "Do I have to have a new name?" "Do I have to not wear girls clothes anymore?" And I remind them that there's no right way to be, just do what they're comfortable with. What I do know is I've experienced parents who've let their trans kids nearly kill themselves and complain to my bosses for trying to get them help for their self-harm. I think you're hearing stories from scared parents making poo poo up.
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# ? Apr 8, 2022 02:45 |
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# ? Jun 5, 2024 03:52 |
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Lance of Llanwyln posted:The only care typically given to minors without rigorous assessment are puberty blockers, which, IIRC, are used for other things as well and are quite safe and it's not difficult to reverse. Once they are a bit older, they can begin HRT, which is vastly more effective when you're A) a teenager and B) you haven't already gone through the wrong puberty. It is exceedingly rare for any surgical interventions to occur before 18. The only exception I can think of is Kim Petras: she required a special dispensation from the German government to get bottom surgery at 16. Yes, just in case it wasn't clear: that jives completely with everything I've ever heard, but I wasn't comfortable saying that I knew it for sure.
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# ? Apr 8, 2022 02:51 |