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Ghost Leviathan posted:Does that matter? Yeah, read what I was responding to. The allegation is that Democrats handled 1/6 not as a coup attempt, but as if it was a few bad apples getting rowdy, then the fact that Democrats impeachmed Trump for incitement to insurrection and Republicans acquitted him does matter. Harold Fjord posted:thread leftists Do you keep a list, and maybe a score, of who's a thread leftist and who's a filthy liberal? DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 16:49
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Sharkie posted:The republican party is bad and wants to do bad things and hurt people. So no actually, anyone who wants them to be strong is stupid and or evil. it seems like we would be much better served by a weak republican party than a strong one, tbh a weak republican party might not currently be pushing a transphobic culture war as its flagship message for taking back the reins of government from a Democratic Party unwilling to use them. that sounds nicer than the alternative to me.
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Apr 9, 2022 16:51
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Do you not actually know what they meant or are you just white noise posting this? I know you're trying to frame their statements in the kindest possible light, but the Republican party hasn't been good in our lifetimes and wanting it to be good is wishcasting. "We need a strong republican party" is Dems giving us a full admission that they want opposition to prevent them from doing all the campaign promises they made to get elected. They might as well be saying "We need a strong status quo". Bishyaler fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 16:52
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Sharkie posted:The republican party is bad and wants to do bad things and hurt people. So no actually, anyone who wants them to be strong is stupid and or evil. Yeah, you agree with Nancy Pelosi. She thinks the current Republican party is bad and hurts people. She thinks they should be more like Dwight Eisenhower and that doing things that are bad, but not directly related to an ideological or political goal, like poorly running a pandemic response by buying up all of the PPE and firing diplomats to let the President's son-in-law solve middle east peace through a WhatsApp chatline don't help anyone in the country or serve any ideological goal. It's just a bad thing because of a systemic weakness. It seems like the 6 posts from 3 other people talking about it should have prevented it from sailing over your head. But, if you're just doing one-liner poo poo posts against an imaginary Nancy Pelosi quote, then you aren't arguing with anybody. I don't think anyone disagrees with the premise of your incorrect understanding of the point.
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Apr 9, 2022 16:55
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Yeah, read what I was responding to. The allegation is that Democrats handled 1/6 not as a coup attempt, but as if it was a few bad apples getting rowdy, then the fact that Democrats impeachmed Trump for incitement to insurrection and Republicans acquitted him does matter. One doomed to fail vote isn’t exactly taking an ‘existential fascist threat’ seriously.
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Apr 9, 2022 16:57
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Yeah, you agree with Nancy Pelosi. She thinks the current Republican party is bad and hurts people. Except it’s not an incorrect understanding, it’s taking her at her word.
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Apr 9, 2022 16:57
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Bishyaler posted:I know you're trying to frame their statements in the kindest possible light, but the Republican party hasn't been good in our lifetimes and wanting it to be good is wishcasting. "We need a strong republican party" is Dems giving us a full admission that they want opposition to prevent them from doing all the campaign promises they made to get elected. They might as well be saying "We need a strong status quo". That is a good argument against her point. You have to understand the point she was trying to make (and I think going back to Eisenhower and saying it started in the 80's and 90's is pretty explicitly saying that it hasn't been good in recent memory) to have a good argument against it or a good reason to support it. You have grasped the underlying point she was making and provided an argument against her point. The previous people thinking she meant that the current Republican party is good and needs to be supported did not understand (or were pretending not to) and arguing against nobody.
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Apr 9, 2022 16:58
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:That is a good argument against her point. You have to understand the point she was trying to make (and I think going back to Eisenhower and saying it started in the 80's and 90's is pretty explicitly saying that it hasn't been good in recent memory) to have a good argument against it or a good reason to support it. No, we all did get it, this is just making an excuse on behalf of someone who does not want to wield power except against the left.
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Apr 9, 2022 16:59
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Yeah, read what I was responding to. The allegation is that Democrats handled 1/6 not as a coup attempt, but as if it was a few bad apples getting rowdy, then the fact that Democrats impeachmed Trump for incitement to insurrection and Republicans acquitted him does matter. one would expect a failed coup to be prosecuted, and the people responsible punished. the democrats have elected to not do this, in favor of spending a year reducing everything they promised down to a list of road repairs that don't personally offend Joe Manchin. this is not how you handle an attempted coup, if your goal is to avoid being couped in the future. like I said: if they won't lift a finger to save themselves, what makes you think they'll do more for you.
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Apr 9, 2022 17:00
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Yeah, you agree with Nancy Pelosi. She thinks the current Republican party is bad and hurts people. I don't need more than one line to say what I think about the Republican Party and their supporters. I want them to not exist, or at least be so weak as to be completely powerless. I do not want them to be strong. Anyone who does, is stupid, and or evil. This is not that complicated. Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:it seems like we would be much better served by a weak republican party than a strong one, tbh virtualboyCOLOR posted:This is true and every day Dems and their defenders support the status quo it seems to apply to the Democratic Party as well. I agree. Sharkie fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 17:00
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:That is a good argument against her point. You have to understand the point she was trying to make (and I think going back to Eisenhower and saying it started in the 80's and 90's is pretty explicitly saying that it hasn't been good in recent memory) to have a good argument against it or a good reason to support it. You have grasped the underlying point she was making and provided an argument against her point. You made an interesting post, but really, the Republican party had become a catastrophic nightmare party by 1964 and has only gotten steadily worse, election over election, ever since. I wasn't aware that the argument was harkening back to the state of the ideological divide 60 years ago, but that only makes the argument farcically stupid in a different way.
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Apr 9, 2022 17:06
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Just like in the climate thread, this seems to come down to whether you believe the system or status quo is unsalvagable without radical change or not. When presented choices are opportunistic cruelty and scapegoating or middling half-hearted posturing, talk of revolution makes sense to me. Whatever the calculus of people driving politics vs politics driving people, if enough people are threatening to flip the table (and refusing to participate in the economy beyond the bare minimum), surely we will eventually have change. One way or the other. It starts with agreeing this whole world we've built is wrong and must change, and moreover that the methods allowed to us are not going to be enough. Strife and suffering are part of the human experience independent of our systems, we've simply shunted it onto certain groups so that a minority can enjoy an unsustainable standard of prosperity (largely white western wealth). There's a right to obey, and a right to kill. Can't remember if that was rage or mitch McConnell. Also quick lol that folks who support shoveling money at police and harshening enforcement and sentencing (while doing their best to deprive people of accessible housing medical care or labor rights) will claim to like RatM. Reminds me of the Trumper I worked with who listened to immortal technique and Vinny paz. Doesn't speak well of our comprehension ability.
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Apr 9, 2022 17:09
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BRJurgis posted:Just like in the climate thread, this seems to come down to whether you believe the system or status quo is unsalvagable without radical change or not. When presented choices are opportunistic cruelty and scapegoating or middling half-hearted posturing, talk of revolution makes sense to me. RatM stickers next to thin blue line punisher stickers are my favorite.
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Apr 9, 2022 17:11
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:You made an interesting post, but really, the Republican party had become a catastrophic nightmare party by 1964 and has only gotten steadily worse, election over election, ever since. I wasn't aware that the argument was harkening back to the state of the ideological divide 60 years ago, but that only makes the argument farcically stupid in a different way. Yes, I wasn't actually taking a side one way or the other. I was just explaining what she actually said. My personal position is: I agree with Nancy Pelosi that if the current Republican party governed like Dwight Eisenhower, then the country would be better off. I also agree with you and Bishayler that this is basically wish casting at this point and not of any practical use to anyone. Saying the country would be better off if today's Democratic party governed like FDR is another example of something that I think would be true, but has no practical use as a statement. It would be a nice thing, but that would require many changes and that statement is about as useful as saying, "if the football team just managed to score more points, then they would have won." It is a statement that is almost assuredly true, but provides no instruction or insight into how to get that to happen. It is just saying you wish a thing was true.
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Apr 9, 2022 17:13
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Yes, I wasn't actually taking a side one way or the other. I was just explaining what she actually said. Except you were actually just making an excuse on behalf of a politician that has shown again and again that they don’t deserve the benefit of the doubt.
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Apr 9, 2022 17:15
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Nucleic Acids posted:Except you were actually just making an excuse on behalf of a politician that has shown again and again that they don’t deserve the benefit of the doubt. New thread title right here
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Apr 9, 2022 17:19
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Nucleic Acids posted:Except you were actually just making an excuse on behalf of a politician that has shown again and again that they don’t deserve the benefit of the doubt. What did Ron desantis do now?
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Apr 9, 2022 17:26
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:one would expect a failed coup to be prosecuted, and the people responsible punished. Political parties don't prosecute people
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Apr 9, 2022 17:32
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:What did Ron desantis do now? Surprise the Democratic Party who stupidly underestimated him. Then he delivered exactly what he promised his constituents and is a likely front runner candidate for the 2024 presidency.
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Apr 9, 2022 17:32
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Fart Amplifier posted:Political parties don't prosecute people Local communist supports one party authoritarian rule of law. Story at 11. virtualboyCOLOR posted:Surprise the Democratic Party who stupidly underestimated him. Then he delivered exactly what he promised his constituents and is a likely front runner candidate for the 2024 presidency. I'm sure he will appreciate your support in fighting the democrats.
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Apr 9, 2022 17:35
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Judging by how things are in parts of the country with a weak Republican party vs a strong one, I expect such a country to be much better for people but also to have a Democratic party that's even more corrupt and full of conservatives running as Democrats than the national norm. So I guess it makes sense if you see her talking to Democratic politicians and campaigners, but holy poo poo no for a random person whose life is affected by how "strong" the current Republican party is. I guess the rest comes down to whether you see it more likely that the Republican party reinvents itself again into at least the Party of Eisenhower if not the Party of Lincoln, or for a viable non-reactionary party to become the primary opposition ot the Democrats. I see them as equally likely, but Pelosi's a dinosaur who remembers when reasonable Republicans roamed the earth so I understand her seeing it differently.
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Apr 9, 2022 17:36
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I'm sure he will appreciate your support in fighting the democrats. Thanks. I don’t know if he’ll need my help with the Democratic Party doing all the heavy lifting like they did for Trump in 2016 
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Apr 9, 2022 17:39
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:My personal position is: I'd be satisfied if the current Democratic party governed & sounded like Dwight Eisenhower when it came to stuff like the MIC. Imagine Pelosi or Biden uttering this: quote:Our military organization today bears little relation to that known by any of my predecessors in peacetime, or indeed by the fighting men of World War II or Korea.
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Apr 9, 2022 17:40
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I'm sure he will appreciate your support in fighting the democrats. It’s not his fault the Democrats don’t actually give a poo poo about what they say they do.
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Apr 9, 2022 17:40
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Willa Rogers posted:I'd be satisfied if the current Democratic party governed & sounded like Dwight Eisenhower when it came to stuff like the MIC. No kidding. Ike would be called a traitor by both party's leadership for giving that speech. I can't see any president doing anything close to it. Edit: just realized that Bernie is the closest aligned to Ike's words in the current Congress. Heck Yes! Loam! fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 17:43
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As it happens, I agree with "legislation isn't enough". But the answer isn't revolution or passing more left laws or anything like that. The answer to fixing America is changing people's opinions. Large-scale political and community organizing at a low level. Not led top-down by politicians, but bottom-up by folks like us on the ground. Not in favor of political parties or political movements, but in favor of political positions. Basically, people need to stop treating politics like sports-team bullshit that they're mere spectators for, and start organizing independently of political parties to focus on supporting their communities and getting mass public support behind the policies they want. Less "well  according to this set of polls, the people already support my chosen policies" and more getting people to really genuinely push for change. Stop expecting politicians to lead the charge for change, and start working to create a situation where the public is dragging those politicians kicking and screaming toward change. Yes, sometimes that means building an actual mass movement, not just pointing to a poll that says 60% support among respondents or whatever. It's not just about getting people to hold an opinion, it's about getting them to Care.Even at times like this, political power fundamentally flows from the bottom up. Legislators and presidents do have influence over public opinion via control of messaging and media, but they aren't all-powerful totally unaccountable dictators who rule over the hapless masses and tell them what to think. Even the largely-unaccountable Supreme Court has limits to how much it can really ignore public opinion, as the Taney Court once learned the hard way. Regardless of whether your chosen political path is electoral, judicial, or revolutionary, you're not going to get anywhere without building public support. And instead of helplessly depending on The Democrats to do that work for us, the left needs to get started on doing that ourselves. That goes for the GOP, too. Whether it's Trump's antics, the anti-democratic measures like election-rigging and coup attempts, or bigoted attempts to roll back basic rights like new abortion restrictions or the "don't say gay" bills, it's only succeeding because a very significant portion of the electorate is perfectly fine with it. And the right clearly understands that, which is why they've spent more than half a century sharpening their knives, building their movements, and waiting to take revenge for rulings like Roe v Wade and Brown v Board. Yes, I know all about the silent majority and how the majority of the US populace doesn't vote, and so on. But despite all that, 30% of eligible voters turned out to VOTE for Donald J. Trump in 2020, after four years of TRUMP and McConnell, and in the middle of a historic pandemic.
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Apr 9, 2022 17:46
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Killer robot posted:Judging by how things are in parts of the country with a weak Republican party vs a strong one, I expect such a country to be much better for people but also to have a Democratic party that's even more corrupt and full of conservatives running as Democrats than the national norm. So I guess it makes sense if you see her talking to Democratic politicians and campaigners, but holy poo poo no for a random person whose life is affected by how "strong" the current Republican party is. I guess the rest comes down to whether you see it more likely that the Republican party reinvents itself again into at least the Party of Eisenhower if not the Party of Lincoln, or for a viable non-reactionary party to become the primary opposition ot the Democrats. I see them as equally likely, but Pelosi's a dinosaur who remembers when reasonable Republicans roamed the earth so I understand her seeing it differently. What's extra hilarious about Pelosi longing for 1950s Republicans is that if her wish came true, the Democrat Party would be instantly and permanently outflanked on the left. The culture shock would have people screaming and making GBS threads their pants.
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Apr 9, 2022 17:47
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Bishyaler posted:What's extra hilarious about Pelosi longing for 1950s Republicans is that if her wish came true, the Democrat Party would be instantly and permanently outflanked on the left. The culture shock would have people screaming and making GBS threads their pants. I guess I'd vote for the pantshitter party in that case. 
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Apr 9, 2022 17:48
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Main Paineframe posted:As it happens, I agree with "legislation isn't enough". But the answer isn't revolution or passing more left laws or anything like that. 100% agreed. Any solution or ideology that dissolves the agency of individuals is doomed to fail. America sucks because Americans want it to suck in that way. The only progress comes from convincing a voting majority that something needs to be done about it as well as agree on what. Progress will always be inherently more difficult than regression. RBA Starblade posted:I guess I'd vote for the pantshitter party in that case. most people in the thread already vote for democrats. 
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Apr 9, 2022 17:50
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Main Paineframe posted:As it happens, I agree with "legislation isn't enough". But the answer isn't revolution or passing more left laws or anything like that. Capital makes sure this will never happen through control of the media. Political commentary is carefully tailored to pit working people against each other and to never allow left-leaning answers to common problems. So unless you have a way to shut down the corporate media, revolution is still the answer.
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Apr 9, 2022 17:52
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That is a good Ike speech, but more than a little disingenuous. So much of the modern war-based and security-obsessed system took shape under Eisenhower, it's not even funny. The wedding of the petrodollar and the national security state, too. He -did- put a damper on the whole Suez war madness, though, but that's his last real stand. seeding theworld with corrupt, bloodthirsty dictators as long as they called themselves anticommunist was a Truman policy he was glad to continue. Ike was a champ at delegating stuff to crooks and then not bothering to check if they were on the up and up. Then on the way out he sort of harrumphs and goes "Yeah, poo poo's kinda hosed, good luck to you all with that."
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Apr 9, 2022 17:52
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Sephyr posted:That is a good Ike speech, but more than a little disingenuous. So much of the modern war-based and security-obsessed system took shape under Eisenhower, it's not even funny. The wedding of the petrodollar and the national security state, too. Yeah it does have the air of ace Ventura blowing up the bathroom, coming out and pronouncing "do not go in there!" Rhetoric has always been unmoored from reality when it comes to American presidents unfortunately.
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Apr 9, 2022 17:56
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You also have to do the political stuff or you just get more of what happened with voting rights in Florida.
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Apr 9, 2022 18:03
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Harold Fjord posted:You also have to do the political stuff or you just get more of what happened with voting rights in Florida. And that circles back to the sorry state of local Dem parties, especially in Florida. Even at the ultra-local level, like city & county Dem clubs, a lot of them are a mess, filled with either olds as mentally decrepit as Biden or bootlickers anxious to show their go-along-to-get-along cred so they can start the slow trajectory of running for higher office someday and waiting for the decrepit olds to give up their seats-for-life.
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Apr 9, 2022 18:13
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Bishyaler posted:Capital makes sure this will never happen through control of the media. Political commentary is carefully tailored to pit working people against each other and to never allow left-leaning answers to common problems. So unless you have a way to shut down the corporate media, revolution is still the answer. If you don't have wide public support nationwide for your movement (and I'm not talking "well polls show they agree with my policies", I mean real "people will take to the loving streets by the tens of millions in support of our specific political movement") and you don't have the strong and enthusiastic backing of the military, revolution is nothing more than a cheap fantasy.
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Apr 9, 2022 18:17
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I've been involved in local organizing for two decades and I've never been more depressed at the state of national politics. Nearly everyone around me believes that leftism can not outcompete ecofascism under these political conditions, so the focus now is foremost on being able to survive that when the hammer drops, which means a lot of effort now on local food, housing, health care, and inclusivity. There is almost zero effort in political messaging, just providing aid. I had spent years working in reproductive rights and consider that a lost battle.
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Apr 9, 2022 18:21
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It's definitely a complicated waiting and timing game. Letting people know they should be playing is a sound strategy for our current situation.BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:I've been involved in local organizing for two decades and I've never been more depressed at the state of national politics. Nearly everyone around me believes that leftism can not outcompete ecofascism under these political conditions, so the focus now is foremost on being able to survive that when the hammer drops, which means a lot of effort now on local food, housing, health care, and inclusivity. There is almost zero effort in political messaging, just providing aid. I had spent years working in reproductive rights and consider that a lost battle. I've been pondering the same thing for some time now. It seems likely people will keep getting shittier with the planet's general material conditions degrade. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 18:23
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:I've been involved in local organizing for two decades and I've never been more depressed at the state of national politics. Nearly everyone around me believes that leftism can not outcompete ecofascism under these political conditions, so the focus now is foremost on being able to survive that when the hammer drops, which means a lot of effort now on local food, housing, health care, and inclusivity. There is almost zero effort in political messaging, just providing aid. I had spent years working in reproductive rights and consider that a lost battle. This seems widespread to me as well. The writing on the wall seems apparently obvious to many, but the dissolution of hope in outcome based solutions is not a great feeling overall.
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Apr 9, 2022 18:24
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Main Paineframe posted:If you don't have wide public support nationwide for your movement (and I'm not talking "well polls show they agree with my policies", I mean real "people will take to the loving streets by the tens of millions in support of our specific political movement") and you don't have the strong and enthusiastic backing of the military, revolution is nothing more than a cheap fantasy. And before I'm accused, I'm not saying do nothing. I'm saying BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:so the focus now is foremost on being able to survive that when the hammer drops, which means a lot of effort now on local food, housing, health care, and inclusivity
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Apr 9, 2022 18:26
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What could be held up as an example of a well run state party? Colorado democrats aren't known for being well run, but they did manage to get a trifecta in 2020. They'll probably lose it in 2022 however. I don't know enough about the state level parties and where they stand to point at a good one.
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Apr 9, 2022 18:30
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