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Can people who say things like "they have done nothing" just tweak it a little bit to avoid the frequent arguments about blanket statements? You can just say something like "That's true they haven't accomplished literally nothing. Given that, my broader point is still/now..." It's Debate & Discussion, but it's not like changing your position even a tiny bit means you've lost some debate points or something.
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Apr 9, 2022 18:32
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Main Paineframe posted:As it happens, I agree with "legislation isn't enough". But the answer isn't revolution or passing more left laws or anything like that. Similar to intersectionality (in my limited understanding anyway), I think massive shift in people's general beliefs and demands of our world has to happen with, and won't be allowed to happen without, some sort of deconstruction or recapture of the very mechanisms that instill foster and guarantee the toxic divided complacency we experience. With our modern access to information this should be easier, but that it's gotten worse in ways is indicative of the absolute capture of our status quo (or something very discouraging about human nature). quote:Legislators and presidents do have influence over public opinion via control of messaging and media, but they aren't all-powerful totally unaccountable dictators who rule over the hapless masses and tell them what to think. BRJurgis fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 18:35
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according to this set of polls, the people already support my chosen policies" and more getting people to really genuinely push for change. Stop expecting politicians to lead the charge for change, and start working to create a situation where the public is dragging those politicians kicking and screaming toward change. Yes, sometimes that means building an actual mass movement, not just pointing to a poll that says 60% support among respondents or whatever. It's not just about getting people to hold an opinion, it's about getting them to Care.
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Bear Enthusiast posted:Can people who say things like "they have done nothing" just tweak it a little bit to avoid the frequent arguments about blanket statements? Nuance and grace are difficult and there are posts to reply to. We cannot escape the human condition.
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Apr 9, 2022 18:36
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Bear Enthusiast posted:Can people who say things like "they have done nothing" just tweak it a little bit to avoid the frequent arguments about blanket statements? Edit- sorry to post about posters but this is a really good topic. Lenses and philosophy and what language means to people. I can't do it all justice but I don't think your being lovely and this is really interesting to think about. They really shouldn't have to. We could all try harder not to be tedious pedants! I cant' pretend to have never been guilty of it. We would benefit from a better way to post our arguments that keeps track of them and can interrelate them. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 18:38
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Main Paineframe posted:If you don't have wide public support nationwide for your movement (and I'm not talking "well polls show they agree with my policies", I mean real "people will take to the loving streets by the tens of millions in support of our specific political movement") and you don't have the strong and enthusiastic backing of the military, revolution is nothing more than a cheap fantasy. We've been on this path for 40 years, the poorer and more desperate the working class gets, the stronger the case for revolution. There's a reason that both political parties are asking the police if they'd like their balls tickled during their blowjob, because those will be the ones massacring starving protesters when the tipping point comes. They're not going to deploy the military unless things are really bad because of the optics involved. Using the military against your own people is an open declaration of tyrannical intent.
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Apr 9, 2022 18:55
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:What could be held up as an example of a well run state party? Nevada now.  I guess it depends on the metrics you're using; is keeping seats warm sufficient to declare a win, or do you want to see them push for meaningful change? Colorado Dems are a good example of the former, but it sure was a thing seeing Hickenlooper et al. help defeat the single-payer referendum a few years ago with the assist of Dem-affiliated groups like Planned Parenthood.
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Apr 9, 2022 18:56
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Willa Rogers posted:Nevada now. Oh yeah I completely forgot about the Nevada party drama. Let's hope they do well going forward after the conservative Dems all quit in a huff. Colorado democrats are following the Virginia model and it will likely lead a similar outcome. At least polis isn't as terrible as Terry McAuliffe or the black face guy.
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Apr 9, 2022 19:00
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Dang, NV polling for the Senate race is all over the map: And the most recent polling for AZ's Senate race is over two months old. GIVE ME SOME FRESH DATA.
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Apr 9, 2022 19:15
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There should be a government agency created at the federal level to conduct polling on regular weekly, monthly, and quarterly intervals for all states. Can't cost more than a few hundred million right?
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Apr 9, 2022 19:19
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Ok. I am happy that worked out for you. But please please please understand the vast majority of us simply aren't in an economic position to even need a passport and it rings as incredibly self focused when a lot of us are at risk of death while democrats spin their tires or are someone clocking us at work and losing needed medical care. Like im incredibly lucky to be in my current situation and I have absolutely benefited from the scraps dems have thrown us. But almost none of my siblings have so im not going to hand it to the dems
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Apr 9, 2022 20:36
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World Famous W posted:Is a grassroots effort (that can actually get systematic change done) managing to not get coopted or strangled in the crib by the capital controlled media and political parties also not a cheap fantasy? It's certainly possible. If grassroots movements could be so easily defeated just by media pressure, then white supremacists and the FBI (but I repeat myself) wouldn't have needed to assassinate so many leaders of major grassroots movements back during the heyday of community organizing. The media is powerful, but its power against organizing from within the community has traditionally been kinda on the weak side, which is why various religious-political communities have been able to so powerfully resist media influence. The trick is to have someone that people trust more than the TV. That's why media pressure usually focuses outside the community in question, seeking to demonize the community in question and turn other communities against it. If anything, I'm more concerned about the growing influence of the internet in replacing that kind of stuff. Existing community entities like churches are increasingly taking marching orders from internet stuff, while people who lacked community in the first place are being lured into filling that void by becoming politically-useless podcast bros or Twitter reply guys.
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Apr 9, 2022 21:00
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Bear Enthusiast posted:Can people who say things like "they have done nothing" just tweak it a little bit to avoid the frequent arguments about blanket statements? Hey I just want to say that after reading this I agree with you. However I still stand by what the Democrats have accomplished is scraping the bottom of bare minimum. While it’s not nothing, it sure isn’t anything that leads to a positive effective outcome for human rights. And what I find offensive is when democrats, democrat supporters, and liberals embellish the actions of democrats into something that it clearly is not or take credit for things Democrats didn’t even do (example: gay marriage, trans protections from employers). Human rights are human rights. Effective outcomes mean more than platitudes. And decorum is for the loving snakes.
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Apr 9, 2022 21:24
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Main Paineframe posted:It's certainly possible. If grassroots movements could be so easily defeated just by media pressure, then white supremacists and the FBI (but I repeat myself) wouldn't have needed to assassinate so many leaders of major grassroots movements back during the heyday of community organizing.
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Apr 9, 2022 21:27
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https://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/1512428929830772741?s=20&t=hHfCm4KRmiccVxGsAP7NBQ This stuff is scary. This blatant sinophobia is horrible. No Dem should be using xenophobia to score points.
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Apr 9, 2022 22:10
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theCalamity posted:https://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/1512428929830772741?s=20&t=hHfCm4KRmiccVxGsAP7NBQ Biden’s first big general election campaign add was a big old heap of sinophobia over COVID. This is not a one off problem for the Democrats.
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Apr 9, 2022 22:13
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theCalamity posted:https://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/1512428929830772741?s=20&t=hHfCm4KRmiccVxGsAP7NBQ It's a bad ad because it's weird and Tim Ryan comes off as weird and uncharacteristic. Using the ccp as a punching bag I have no problem with, though. I think that can be done easily without it being sinophobia. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 9, 2022 22:16
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I didn't even know that Tim Ryan had a primary challenger till just now. She looks p. decent on the issues, to boot. How are u posted:It's a bad ad because it's weird and Tim Ryan comes off as weird and uncharacteristic. Using the ccp as a punching bag I have no problem with, though. I think that can be done easily without it being sinophobia. How do you convert "one word: china" (or otherwise "use the ccp as a punching bag" with  ) into a non-racist slogan without alienating AAPI voters, or without coming off as a racist rear end in a top hat?
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Apr 9, 2022 22:32
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Having a really hard time seeing the value in a dem candidate punching down on china with all the current news of random strangers punching down chinese people in various u.s. cities.
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Apr 9, 2022 22:34
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Willa Rogers posted:Having a really hard time seeing the value in a dem candidate punching down on china with all the current news of random strangers punching down chinese people in various u.s. cities. It's not even like the Democratic base is known for their love of antagonistic foreign policy. That's red meat to Republicans but you're not winning over people who think you sacrifice babies to demons with red meat stuff that doesn't provide anything substantiative but gets them in a little frenzy. That only works on the people who are already into you. Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 22:51
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theCalamity posted:https://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/1512428929830772741?s=20&t=hHfCm4KRmiccVxGsAP7NBQ poo poo, I remember early on in Dubya's term when a spy plane crashed in chinese territory and China nabbed it, and dems were loving -livid- that the GOP was not threatening to bomb Beijing unless they returned the thing in one piece with a cherry on top, and maybe also pay some reparations while at it. The GWOT just delayed that strain of agitprop for a decade or two. I have a phillipine friend who lives in the US, and she looks 'chinese' to have people harrassing ever every week. In january some wheelchair-bound Vietnam vet tried to run her over with his chair, knocking her down and making her chip a tooth.
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Apr 10, 2022 00:37
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How are u posted:It's a bad ad because it's weird and Tim Ryan comes off as weird and uncharacteristic. Using the ccp as a punching bag I have no problem with, though. I think that can be done easily without it being sinophobia. You can’t detect racism in how safety and home security is messaged in safe white neighborhoods, you think you can go after what most Americans perceive to be a monoethnic state without getting racist. I think Dems can’t identify racism without someone they trust (Obama) telling them directly that this is a racist thing. This is a product of politics without ideology, a brand rather than a set of principles. We have a long way to go as a country.
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Apr 10, 2022 00:53
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The only thing I think of when I hear Tim Ryan’s name is when he tried to go after Bernie on something in the primary and just got obliterated over it
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Apr 10, 2022 01:34
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selec posted:You can’t detect racism in how safety and home security is messaged in safe white neighborhoods, you think you can go after what most Americans perceive to be a monoethnic state without getting racist. If Obama came out and said hey stop talking about China as a rival and authoritarian power to be wary of then I'd definitely want to hear him out.
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Apr 10, 2022 02:30
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Main Paineframe posted:If you don't have wide public support nationwide for your movement (and I'm not talking "well polls show they agree with my policies", I mean real "people will take to the loving streets by the tens of millions in support of our specific political movement") and you don't have the strong and enthusiastic backing of the military, revolution is nothing more than a cheap fantasy. congratulations, you have figured out there is no hope for american electoralism in the near future. this wide-ranging support is lacking because the material conditions shaping society heavily disincentivize it from forming, and americans will not reach the point where they have no choice but to revolt against the entrenched powers until climate apocalypse is in full swing. there's no "one weird trick" to fixing the myriad ills of our society. it will keep going in decay like most dying empires have. How are u posted:It's a bad ad because it's weird and Tim Ryan comes off as weird and uncharacteristic. Using the ccp as a punching bag I have no problem with, though. I think that can be done easily without it being sinophobia. this is horseshit HRU. the blunt instruments available to a political campaign utterly lack the nuance to distinguish between generating hate for a foreign government without generating hate for a foreign (and domestic!) people. Can you name one time derogatory attitudes towards china's government have not gone hand in hand with derogatory attitudes towards chinese people everywhere? A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Apr 10, 2022 |
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Apr 10, 2022 03:00
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Fart Amplifier posted:Political parties don't prosecute people the Republican Party's latest round of anti-trans legislation begs to differ. it is entirely possible, and indeed, frequently politically useful, to demonstrate to your base that you are willing to prosecute something they consider wrongdoing. it is traditionally the approach taken by a political party after suffering a coup attempt, to prosecute those who tried to overthrow them and failed, on the grounds they constitute a threat to their continued ability to govern. the Democratic Party has chosen not to do this, and in related news, this November is expected to be the last time they have the power to pass a Democratic agenda before 2030.
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Apr 10, 2022 03:20
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How are u posted:If Obama came out and said hey stop talking about China as a rival and authoritarian power to be wary of then I'd definitely want to hear him out. Why do you need a political celebrity to tell you to not be sinophobic?
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Apr 10, 2022 06:12
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Harold Fjord posted:They really shouldn't have to. We could all try harder not to be tedious pedants! I cant' pretend to have never been guilty of it. Questiong incredibly broad blanket statement: blanket pedantry. Neat.
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Apr 10, 2022 07:28
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:100% agreed. Any solution or ideology that dissolves the agency of individuals is doomed to fail. America sucks because Americans want it to suck in that way. The only progress comes from convincing a voting majority that something needs to be done about it as well as agree on what. : Nobody is actually happy with how America is besides the ruling class, so more accurately America sucks because a few Americans want it to suck that way. And they have spent trillions of dollars and decades of effort to make people believe that's just the way things are, or it's all the minorities' fault, or anything really besides accurately assigning blame. selec posted:You can’t detect racism in how safety and home security is messaged in safe white neighborhoods, you think you can go after what most Americans perceive to be a monoethnic state without getting racist. Culturally, people have absorbed the idea that Racism is Bad, but many don't really grasp what racism even is. Thus leading to our old friends "I'm not racist but" and "It's not racist If they don't look directly at the camera and say "I love racism""
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Apr 10, 2022 09:52
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Fart Amplifier posted:Political parties don't prosecute people Technically true, but irrelevant because the president appoints the lead prosecutor for the entire country, so if the Attorney General isn't doing any prosecuting of the ringleaders of an attempted coup that's also the fault of the guy who picked him and the party that controlled the senate and chose to confirm him
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Apr 10, 2022 14:34
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Willa Rogers posted:
It isn't exactly 1-to-1, but criticism of Israel being taken as anti-Semitism shouldn't be used as an excuse to let them get away with genocide, or substitute criticism of Saudi Arabia with Islamophobia or anti-Arabic sentiment. That said, I think foreign policy issues are a really weak choice for ads across the board, and even for candidates who think of foreign policy as their signature issue it seems like the Ukrainian-Russian war would be the obvious choice by a wide margin
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Apr 10, 2022 15:23
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BougieBitch posted:It isn't exactly 1-to-1, but criticism of Israel being taken as anti-Semitism shouldn't be used as an excuse to let them get away with genocide, or substitute criticism of Saudi Arabia with Islamophobia or anti-Arabic sentiment. Does Tim Ryan vote to fund Israel's occupation
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Apr 10, 2022 15:32
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The Colorado GOP is very much tied into the stop the steal big lie bullshit. They appear to be eating themselves alive. https://twitter.com/JesseAPaul/status/1513174817511391233 Also John Eastman tried to make it so unaffiliated voters couldn't participate in primary votes and lost. All the local AM talking heads are crying because their vote is being corrupted by evil democrats. Apparently there is a local campaign to register unaffiliated and primary the poo poo out of Lauren Bobert. https://twitter.com/JesseAPaul/status/1513148113376014339 https://twitter.com/JesseAPaul/status/1513148118283407367 Also the GOP governor candidate promised to pardon the runner up, who spotted herself in for SoS is under investigation for election fraud. https://coloradosun.com/2022/03/09/tina-peters-investigations-indictments/ Let's hope they continue to destroy themselves.
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Apr 10, 2022 16:35
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theCalamity posted:https://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/1512428929830772741?s=20&t=hHfCm4KRmiccVxGsAP7NBQ
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Apr 10, 2022 17:24
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Bishyaler posted:Why do you need a political celebrity to tell you to not be sinophobic? He is a former President, not a celebrity. Don't buy into that silly right wing framing. And it's because he's a thoughtful, informed person who has great experience, and I respect him to a certain extent. E: and I'm not being sinophobic, at all. Skepticism of the ccp isn't sinophobia.
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Apr 10, 2022 17:32
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BougieBitch posted:It isn't exactly 1-to-1, but criticism of Israel being taken as anti-Semitism shouldn't be used as an excuse to let them get away with genocide, or substitute criticism of Saudi Arabia with Islamophobia or anti-Arabic sentiment. Yeah but you would also have a pretty valid argument that "One Word: Israel" could be reasonably perceived as anti-semitic.
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Apr 10, 2022 17:43
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How are u posted:He is a former President, not a celebrity. Don't buy into that silly right wing framing. And it's because he's a thoughtful, informed person who has great experience, and I respect him to a certain extent. My man has done gently caress all for the Dems since he left office, went surfing on billionaire island, bought a house on Martha’s Vineyard, scored a huge Netflix deal and gentrified the gently caress out of a neighborhood to build his ceremonial burial chambers. That’s a celebrity.
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Apr 10, 2022 17:43
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How are u posted:He is a former President, not a celebrity. Don't buy into that silly right wing framing. And it's because he's a thoughtful, informed person who has great experience, and I respect him to a certain extent. Talking about using China as a metaphorical "punching bag" at a time when Chinese people in the U.S. are being used as literal punching bags, however.... (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 10, 2022 17:50
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selec posted:My man has done gently caress all for the Dems since he left office, went surfing on billionaire island, bought a house on Martha’s Vineyard, scored a huge Netflix deal and gentrified the gently caress out of a neighborhood to build his ceremonial burial chambers. It'll be interesting to see how extensively Obama campaigns on behalf of candidates this year, especially since Biden's been labeled as campaign poison by moderate Dems (speaking off the record, of course). I wonder if Obama would still be a motivator for GOTV among youngs as he was during his presidency, given that the youth vote looks to be dropping off.
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Apr 10, 2022 17:54
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I doubt it
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Apr 10, 2022 18:40
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Willa Rogers posted:given that the youth vote looks to be dropping off. Source?
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