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Colonel Cool posted:The existence of some unfairness is a reality of the world and isn't a reason to throw up our hands and say that there's nothing we can do about anything. Gendered sports seems to be reasonably successful at providing a wide range of options for a wide range of the population in a way that works reasonably well. Which isn't to say that we can't make improvements where possible, like the existence of weight categories in a number of sports. I don't have any objections to making a short girl basketball league if there was a great demand for it, but it doesn't seem like there is. Why would it be a problem and again, do you have any evidence of it at all being likely?
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Apr 16, 2022 22:51
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thanks 
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Apr 16, 2022 23:45
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doingitwrong posted:
I want to correct you here. Transgender people's intuitions are very tuned for this to use your words. Most cis people never, ever think about the concept of gender or even really examine it/theirs. Transgender people spend a liftetime thinking about it because we are forced to just to be able to tell people like myco to gently caress off with the "its a fetish" bullshit in a way you lot will beleive us. We know. Koos Group posted:Mycophobia was advocating that idea because a trans woman whom he's friends with convinced him of it. It's not evidence of malice toward trans people, nor have I found any context or contradictions that would indicate he has not been posting in good faith in this thread. This is why we have the rule about reporting suspected bad faith rather than trying to call it out in threads, because it can cause discussion to turn to an individual poster instead of an interesting subject, and sows mistrust. If you would like to discuss the matter further, please PM me, or if you would like to talk about the policy in public, there will be a D&D feedback thread on Friday. I know myco is your ol' posting bud but dude this is bullshit and I'm not going to pm you about it or go start some other thread. They are a bigot thats done everything you said would get people probe'd in this thread. Everyone can see it but you. Miss Broccoli fucked around with this message at 02:11 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 02:07
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I want to give my perspective as a non professional athlete. Before I came out I got good at cycling for an amateur. I made a lot of progress very fast because I was taking out my feelings on that bicycle. I am intensely proud of the gains I made. There is one particular hill where I look at my times on it and it makes me feel very good about myself. The first time I went up that hill I had to stop half way and nearly threw up. The second time I rode it all and nearly collapsed at the top, I barely made it home. By the time I moved away from that area I was doing that hill twice with ease and then riding another 20kms to go climb a mountain. That hill was steep to the point trucks were not allowed to even attempt it, despite being in a residential area. The obsession with testosterone levels is a dangerous and weird one. My body produced a metric tonne of it, before I went on blockers I was producing at the very limit of normal. Even after 6 months on blockers I was still above average and had to go on the stronger ones that make you want to kill youself as a standard side effect (the old neuter gay men drug, banned in america, cyproterone acetate). When doctors see my initial blood results they still take pause. I started going bald in my teens because of it. Should I have to lose those records? Obviously I can not do that now and I will never be as fit as I was then. But they are my records. The overwhelming attitude of every single cis person when I came out was "well that wasnt really you was it". Thats bullshit, I did that. Those are my achievements. That took deliberate mental and physical effort. I still feel the same pride looking at my old logs. Do I want them listed on the womens strava leaderboards or whatever else? gently caress no. No one sane is pushing for that sort of thing except as a reaction to the extreme rhetoric from the other side. In this sort of situation not listing them IS the acceptable middle ground. When I changed strava gender I got a billion QOM's and had to message support to delist them. But are they my achievements? Did they and do they make me proud? Yes. Do my current smaller gains make me proud? Yes. Is that not the point of athletic activity below the professional level? I am not going to say I had a healthy relationship with that bike but I know I'm very far from the only human on this planet who uses exercise as an outlet for emotional pain. I'm still proud of those records. They made me feel good about myself at a time when I really needed something good going for me. It was a great way to connect with my peers and stay healthy, the primary benefits of exercise that get talked about below profesional levels. You know what happened when I came out and every single person on earth suddenly had a vested interest in making sure I never touched a bike again? I stopped riding for years. It took away my enjoyment because every single person, every single time I caught a glimpse of the TV, every time I saw trans women mentioned told me I was a man invading spaces, my records were cheating, all of that bullshit. I stopped for years. I still can't go on rides with my cis girlfriend because in the back of my mind the rhetoric has taken hold. Never mind that I've always been athletic and she has not. I'm not allowed to do this, I'm only better than her because of x and y and z bullshit transphobic reason that doesn't bear out in the science at all. That poo poo burrows in our brains, especially when we hear it from birth, and double especially when after coming out it comes at you from all sides. It robs you of your joy, it destroys your ability to take pride in yourself, and people want to do this to kids. My cis girlfriend is currently significantly stronger than me btw. People want to do this poo poo to teenagers who are far more vulnerable and far more effected than I. The overwhelming majority of talk when it comes to the science in this thread has been aimed at the upper end of performance, at dealing with the professional end. But this bullshit debate impacts every single possible level. Going back to what herstory said very early in the thread Herstory Begins Now posted:It's doubly absurd because people hugely overstate the impact of hormones in basically anything that isn't literally just a contest of muscle mass vs muscle mass (which is actually very few sports). 95% of any sport is practice, coaching, nutrition/conditioning, game knowledge, and mindset stuff. It's not until you get to a very high level in sports where basically everyone is already maximizing those factors that individual hormonal differences are the determining factor. What difference does it make to let trans people play sports as their real actual gender? For the trans person it can be life and death. Thats not hyperbole. The often misquoted stat around trans people is that 41% one. 41% of living, ie they failed, trans people have attempted suicide in their lives. This is for all, again, living trans people. Its impossible to count those that have died. The real number, if we could include the dead, would be much much higher. The more support and more community a trans person have the lower this number gets. When they have supportive family and good connections in their community? It falls to nearly background general population levels. Personally, I've tried three times and had to check myself into hospital to avoid a 4th coming up on a year ago. All since coming out. Miss Broccoli fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 02:58
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Woozy you are not a transphobe and you are posting a lot of interesting things but its almost impossible for anyone to have a meaningful discussion around it when the space is infested with people like myco or cool who are incredibly blatantly transphobic assholes the mods don't want to clean up for ??? reasons, despite them doing the whole "doesnt back themselves up or defend their points" thing that was promised to get people removed.
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Apr 17, 2022 03:06
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Miss Broccoli posted:Woozy you are not a transphobe and you are posting a lot of interesting things but its almost impossible for anyone to have a meaningful discussion around it when the space is infested with people like myco or cool who are incredibly blatantly transphobic assholes the mods don't want to clean up for ??? reasons, despite them doing the whole "doesnt back themselves up or defend their points" thing that was promised to get people removed. Transphobia or bigotry is not against the thread, per Koos. It's good and fun for the forum to be educated by the responses to bigots, again per Koos. Otherwise we'd be moderating debate positions, which is worse than bigotry as far as the forum goes. Just stating the moderation opinion, per my DM convos with Koos. If they would like to clarify further to the thread, they can.
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Apr 17, 2022 03:09
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Jaxyon posted:Transphobia or bigotry is not against the thread, per Koos. are you not excited to get probated by commiegir in the feedback thread when it gets posted six days from now? Until then we can just have a bunch of cool guys pour in and cissplain their icky feelings about possibly losing at basketball to a woman and how state laws that target one specific teenager are good actually, because that's a valued perspective here that it would be bad practice to exclude. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 17, 2022 03:14
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Honestly Koos it really does make me question what your personal views on transgender people are.
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Apr 17, 2022 03:17
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Apr 17, 2022 03:33
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Woozys discussion was interesting, but as far as I can tell colonel cool's entire argument seems to be "I can conceive of a scenario in which trans women dominate elite levels in sports, so we need to be ready for that likely scenario" like unless I misread it, it seems like their entire argument is them mistaking their own imagination for actual evidence? It's kind of weird on another note, "what does it mean to identify as a woman or identify as a man?" is frankly an insanely complicated question about gender, gendered performance, the confluence of social and individual performances, and the role that historical and social inertia plays in these things just to freaking start. Like trying to define "what is gender" is one of the single most broad questions you can ask about what it is to be human
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Apr 17, 2022 03:49
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I think that if transwomen have an unfair advantage then they should be allowed to compete, because I hate women. Lol
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Apr 17, 2022 03:53
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ol yeller posted:I think that if transwomen have an unfair advantage then they should be allowed to compete, because I hate women. Lol very problematic to not also hate trans women for being women in this scenario IMO
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Apr 17, 2022 03:55
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Miss Broccoli posted:Woozy you are not a transphobe and you are posting a lot of interesting things but its almost impossible for anyone to have a meaningful discussion around it when the space is infested with people like myco or cool who are incredibly blatantly transphobic assholes the mods don't want to clean up for ??? reasons, despite them doing the whole "doesnt back themselves up or defend their points" thing that was promised to get people removed. If the bar for being a blatantly transphobic rear end in a top hat is "thinks that it is reasonably plausible that trans women might come to be disproportionally represented in elite level women's sports" then I think we're doing pretty okay in the grand scheme of things. Yes, we don't have overwhelming evidence of this being the case, yet. That isn't anywhere near enough reason to say that it is an absurd bad faith concern that only nefarious transphobes could hold, when we consider the current circumstantial evidence. Trans women currently seem to be reasonably competitive with cis women, despite all the current social factors hindering their performance that have started, and should hopefully continue, to diminish over time. This stands in contrast to trans men who do not seem to be very competitive with other men right now. We know for a fact that physically, male performance notably outpaces female performance. We have studies suggesting that some of that performance advantage persists for a notable degree of time after starting HRT. We know for a fact that certain biological advantages, like height, are 100% linked to male puberty and will not go away with HRT. It seems plausible at this point that the fact that trans women aren't currently performing notably above cis women across the board could be due to things like a vanishingly small sample size, the terrible way society has treated and continues to treat trans people, and the relatively short amount of time trans women have been competing at elite levels. None of these facts are sufficient at the moment to conclusively prove anything one way or another, which is why we should continue to gather evidence and wait and see. No, I don't have the exact data being demanded, because if I did have that data then it wouldn't be a hypothetical, it would be a fact. And I don't think people demanding that data earnestly believe that the current circumstantial evidence is insufficient to even indicate a possible concern. I think it's a convenient thing to demand because it's an easy way to sidestep the possible fact that cis and trans women competing might end up having some level of inherent imbalance. I think that's a pretty reasonable statement to make.
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Apr 17, 2022 04:31
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too long didnt read cause no links to evidence for claim.
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Apr 17, 2022 04:35
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Miss Broccoli posted:too long didnt read cause no links to evidence for claim. Sure, here you go. It's easy to miss in the thread scroll. Dog King posted:https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865
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Apr 17, 2022 04:39
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Colonel Cool posted:If the bar for being a blatantly transphobic rear end in a top hat is "thinks that it is reasonably plausible that trans women might come to be disproportionally represented in elite level women's sports" then I think we're doing pretty okay in the grand scheme of things. Yes, we don't have overwhelming evidence of this being the case, yet. That isn't anywhere near enough reason to say that it is an absurd bad faith concern that only nefarious transphobes could hold, when we consider the current circumstantial evidence. CC do you have any piece of evidence that is actually something you can point to target then just a possibility you have conceived. Like if you're overall defense is that there is insufficient evidence at this time to support your assertion then why the gently caress should we give it any credence whatsoever e: this part in particular quote:Trans women currently seem to be reasonably competitive with cis women, despite all the current social factors hindering their performance that have started, and should hopefully continue, to diminish over time. It is not at all obvious to me why these social factors would inhibit women currently competing in the sport as opposed to inhibit the overall number of women participated in the sport. Like why would social factors result in a degradation of an individual athletes performance after they have already decided to participate A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 04:45 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 04:41
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A big flaming stink posted:CC do you have any piece of evidence that is actually something you can point to target then just a possibility you have conceived. I think all of the things I posted are reasonable enough pieces of circumstantial evidence that are sufficient to support an inductive argument. People are obviously free to disagree if they want to, and I'd be interested in seeing reasons for why. edit for edit: quote:It is not at all obvious to me why these social factors would inhibit women currently competing in the sport as opposed to inhibit the overall number of women participated in the sport. Sure. Being treated badly by society could conceivably hinder someone's motivation to train as hard as they can as much as they can. I imagine the pressure elite level athletes are under while training is already crushing, and adding in additional social pressure against you competing at all sounds pretty inhibiting. Colonel Cool fucked around with this message at 04:58 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 04:45
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Colonel Cool posted:I think all of the things I posted are reasonable enough pieces of circumstantial evidence that are sufficient to support an inductive argument. People are obviously free to disagree if they want to, and I'd be interested in seeing reasons for why. Would you mind walking me through your inductive reasoning
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Apr 17, 2022 04:45
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Colonel Cool posted:Sure, here you go. It's easy to miss in the thread scroll. Did you miss the posts directly under it, and elsewhere? Miss Broccoli fucked around with this message at 04:59 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 04:53
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Miss Broccoli posted:Did you miss the posts directly under it, and elsewhere? Checking the post under it... BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:If I had to bet, I would say it's very unlikely that MtF athletes will not retain a performance advantage in strength-focused sports with a very large cis male/female performance gap. I think there's still a good chance for other sports that the performance advantage could disappear. I didn't find many of the posts elsewhere to be particularly convincing. They mostly seemed to consist of people saying "well it's not happening yet, therefore there is absolutely no reason to believe it will happen ever." I remember that line of argument five years ago was along the lines of "well a trans woman has never won an elite level athletic competition so clearly there's no issue at all". The goalposts seem to be shifting.
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Apr 17, 2022 05:02
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A big flaming stink posted:Would you mind walking me through your inductive reasoning Yes, sorry I replied before you edited. 1) Males have substantial physiological advantages over females to the point that we consider it impossible for them to compete fairly in high level athletic competitions together. 2) We are starting to see studies indicating that trans women retain some amount of that physiological advantage after being on HRT for over a year (though certainly not all), linked numerous times in this thread. Therefore: 3) If and when we equalize the other relevant factors to athletic performance, over the course of time, it seems reasonable that trans women may begin to outcompete cis women in athletic events. There's some other stuff I posted speculating on why this doesn't seem to be the case yet that I think are reasonable possible explanations, but it isn't strictly necessary for the above argument. It seems pretty obvious that if we equalized for all the other factors then a physical advantage is going to be the deciding factor. 2) might turn out not to be the case, it's too early to say for sure and we don't have an enormous amount of data to work with. Even 1) might turn out not to be the case, though it seems pretty unlikely. And it might even turn out to be the case that we never end up equalizing the other factors, which seems kind of sad.
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Apr 17, 2022 05:17
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Colonel Cool posted:Checking the post under it... If the very next post didn't seem to cover what they were saying pehaps go to the literal next one since they said "posts" woozy pawsies posted:except you should probably read the full text. Oh hey, there it is! But as you and those posts both talk about there is a significant lack of data to say that there's is an advantage or not for transitioning athletes which is why posts like Colonel Cool posted:If the bar for being a blatantly transphobic rear end in a top hat is "thinks that it is reasonably plausible that trans women might come to be disproportionally represented in elite level women's sports" It's not particularly reasonable to think that, it's built almost entirely out of a gut reaction to the events that what little data we have doesn't really show to pan out. Which is why people say it's a transphobic reaction because it's...an emotional response to exclude trans people based on no evidence but an assumption that they don't belong.
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Apr 17, 2022 05:22
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Colonel Cool posted:Checking the post under it... Are trans women women?
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Apr 17, 2022 05:31
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:But as you and those posts both talk about there is a significant lack of data to say that there's is an advantage or not for transitioning athletes Extensive studies on the subject don't exist, yet. Because elite level trans athletes are new and vanishingly rare. So we work off of what data we do currently have and try to make extrapolations. quote:It's not particularly reasonable to think that, it's built almost entirely out of a gut reaction to the events that what little data we have doesn't really show to pan out. Which is why people say it's a transphobic reaction because it's...an emotional response to exclude trans people based on no evidence but an assumption that they don't belong. I disagree that no evidence exists, obviously. And I don't believe I ever made an argument that trans people should be excluded from any sports, including elite level sports. I've even said that if it does end up being the case that trans women do have some level of advantage then the fairest possible solution might end up being accepting that level of advantage as unavoidable.
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Apr 17, 2022 05:32
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Miss Broccoli posted:Are trans women women? Yes, obviously. It's also not a question that's incredibly relevant to this topic. 
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Apr 17, 2022 05:33
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Colonel Cool posted:Checking the post under it... The reason I haven't weighed in here again, despite standing by that post, is because this whole back-and-forth feels very irrelevant in the big picture human aspect (and several people here have explained why). Yes, I think it would be more surprising for hormone treatment in adulthood to abolish the performance gap in all sports than for there to be persistent organizational effects of hormones that create a permanent advantage in at least some sports. But, okay -- this would mean that some sports have to figure out how to handle that issue safely and fairly. That is very different from the current discriminatory bullshit that's based on transphobic nonsense and "justified" by a flawed assumption of universal advantage. I don't have the stomach to write out an endocrinology lecture when the science isn't what the policies are about.
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Apr 17, 2022 05:37
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Colonel Cool posted:Yes, obviously. It's also not a question that's incredibly relevant to this topic. Given how the last person reacted to that question and furthermore the fact that three seperate accounts have been permabanned because of that question in this thread alone, its incredibly relevant. Do you beleive trans women are women like cis women are women?
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Apr 17, 2022 05:38
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To give you benefit of the doubt > 1) Males have substantial physiological advantages over females to the point that we consider it impossible for them to compete fairly in high level athletic competitions together. What about all the sports where its been proven that """males""" do not have an advantage are women are excluded because of sexism? > 2) We are starting to see studies indicating that trans women retain some amount of that physiological advantage after being on HRT for over a year (though certainly not all), linked numerous times in this thread. Prove that these advantages exist, because you haven't. Then prove that there is a real world case where this matters more than any other physiological advantage, notably Phelps lactic acid situation and giant wingspan.
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Apr 17, 2022 05:41
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Miss Broccoli posted:Given how the last person reacted to that question and furthermore the fact that three seperate accounts have been permabanned because of that question in this thread alone, its incredibly relevant. Trans women are a subcategory of woman, just like cis women are a subcategory of women.
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Apr 17, 2022 05:41
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Miss Broccoli posted:To give you benefit of the doubt I don't believe there are numerous physical sports where males do not have a notable physical advantage. I believe you can find some hyper niche cases where females might have an edge, but I don't think it's reasonable to claim that males aren't advantaged in the vast majority of them. In sports where fair competition is reasonably possible then I support desegregating sports entirely. I have said over and over that insufficient data exists at this time to conclusively prove an advantage exists. This is not the same thing as saying that no evidence suggesting that this might be the case exists. edit - we segregate sports by sex, and sometimes by weight categories. We could make a nearly infinite number of categories and characteristics to segregate sports by. The sex one seems to work pretty well most of the time.
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Apr 17, 2022 05:47
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So there is no evidence, your words, yet we should still act on a maybe?
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Apr 17, 2022 05:53
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*acts on a maybe* (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 17, 2022 05:58
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Miss Broccoli posted:So there is no evidence, your words, yet we should still act on a maybe? If by "act on" you mean "acknowledge the possibility based on the current data while continuing to allow trans women to compete in women's categories and gathering more data on the subject." I think refusing to even entertain the notion until it's conclusively proven beyond a shadow of a doubt is one of the things giving fuel to the right's horrific and pointless bigotry. If one side seems like it's refusing to acknowledge reality then by necessity that gives more credence to the side saying the other thing in the eyes of people in the middle.
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Apr 17, 2022 06:01
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Prove that its reality then. Or stop posting.
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Apr 17, 2022 06:03
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Colonel Cool posted:I think refusing to even entertain the notion until it's conclusively proven beyond a shadow of a doubt is one of the things giving fuel to the right's horrific and pointless bigotry. It doesn't. It really doesn't.
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Apr 17, 2022 06:03
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Miss Broccoli posted:Prove that its reality then. Or stop posting. I've posted evidence which I find reasonably convincing, enough so to be somewhat concerning to me. You're obviously free to disagree with the quality of that evidence if you wish. And that's fine. But even beyond that, the perception of reality is still enough to be a major political concern even if the data eventually proved that it's not a huge deal. And dogmatically refusing to entertain the possibility isn't politically useful when you're not talking to anyone already 100% bought in to your side. Vincent Van Goatse posted:It doesn't. It really doesn't. There's obviously always going to be hardcore hateful bigots that'll never be swayed and will try to persecute trans people no matter what. I don't think that's a majority of people. I think a majority of people can probably be swayed, at least a little, depending on what the sides are telling them. And the opinions of that majority of people are the ones that end up mattering when it comes to real material issues, like banning trans kids from middle school sports.
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Apr 17, 2022 06:18
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Basically all you have said Cool is that something could happen based on "preliminary" data that itself says is useless, which you conveniently ignored. From there you have gone on to build a hypothetical situation based on data that does not say what it says it means. Post real data. Back up your hypothetical. If you can't do that then everyone saying your hypothetical is based on nothing more than your gut feeling is correct. Exlcusing us based on your gut feeling is transphobia. You are quite literally basing your segregation on your fear that your hypothetical will come true quote:This is not the same thing as saying that no evidence suggesting that this might be the case exists. tldr, gently caress off transphobe, is the appropriate response to you. Because thats what you are.
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Apr 17, 2022 06:24
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Colonel Cool posted:I've posted evidence which I find reasonably convincing, enough so to be somewhat concerning to me. You're obviously free to disagree with the quality of that evidence if you wish. And that's fine. The literal evidence you posted says its not evidence of anything. Your perception of reality means absolutely nothing. Why do I, as a trans person, need to entertain your gut feeling that says you should exclude me for my transness. Thats literal transphobia. The literal, literal definition of transphobia. Again, gently caress off transphobe is the only appropriate response. gently caress off, transphobe. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 17, 2022 06:27
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Colonel Cool posted:
Did you even read the post where I talked about this? gently caress off transphobe. E: If my multiposting here is a concern tell me. I'm doing it because it helps demarcate seperate ideas
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Apr 17, 2022 06:27
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my guess is that trans women aren't dominating the elite levels of womens sport because they aren't using gear
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Apr 17, 2022 07:05
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