CuddleCryptid posted:

That entirely depend on how you ask the question. Defunding the police is not popular, but all the polls for shifting money from the cops to social programs show strong support.

As with most things like this the slogan was direct and honest but required a small amount of background to understand and therefore was an utter failure at accomplishing it's goals because no one reads below the headline.

Professor Beetus posted:

No one "lied" about what you said, they inferred because why the hell else would you ask that question? What about op's post was confusing?

Based on statistics and my experience with Planned Parenthood, I will say that many people, including a majority of women, feel that abortion is fortunate or neutral, and most are in fact glad that they can get an abortion that is safe and legal. Now that that's cleared up, is there something you'd care to add?

The Sean posted:

Cool. I appreciate the honest response.

The phrasing I was referring to from OP was "insisting that referring to it as unfortunate was adding to the stigma."
* I don't feel that anyone should feel stigmatized for getting an abortion.
* I feel that access to abortions is a fortunate thing.
* In not all situations is it a fortunate "occurence"
* "insisting to referring to it as an unfortunate occurrence" (paraphrasing op) denies that for some persons it is not actually a good experience. This is why I asked for clarification rather than coming at them with an assumption. I can give respect for the use of the word "occurrence" as something that happens to a person not of their choosing or something that they have to take blame or responsibility for.
* I have had one or more persons in my life have a lovely situation (not going to add details) to where access to an abortion was a fortunate option versus it not being an option but the whole experience was not fortunate as a whole.

Professor Beetus posted:

Okay, thanks for finally explaining. I can see where you're coming from. The fact is that abortion is complicated and different for every person. However, always framing it as a serious thing that can be difficult or "unfortunate" is giving weight to right wing framing and does in fact stigmatize abortion in general. Abortion in most cases is a simple and routine medical procedure that takes less than ten minutes and doesn't require anesthesia.

It's okay for women to feel anything they want to feel about their abortion, and referring to most abortions as a simple clinical procedure that we are fortunate to have access to does not diminish their experiences.

The Sean posted:

Thanks for talking it out with me, prof. The "different for every person" aspect is extremely important.

Professor Beetus posted:

It is but I want to be clear here. It is 100% accurate to say that for many, or even most women, abortion isn't a big deal. I'm sorry that the person you are close to had such a negative experience; it does happen. But it's not statistically common and it's not helpful to always couch abortion in guarded and fearful language. Normalizing abortion is one of the biggest things people can do to help protect access, because when people have a scary or negative perception about it, it makes it easier for them to sympathize with anti-choice arguments that chip away at reproductive freedoms, even when abortion remains legal.

tk posted:

You keep saying this and I kindof feel like you're talking out of your rear end.

Professor Beetus posted:

No, this is pretty much straight from abortion advocacy groups like NARAL and Planned Parenthood. Also I worked at a clinic with abortion services for years.

E: also normalizing abortion isn't a particularly new or controversial concept in feminism and it's honestly kind of weird to see this kind of push back in a predominantly leftist space.

Professor Beetus posted:

No, this is pretty much straight from abortion advocacy groups like NARAL and Planned Parenthood. Also I worked at a clinic with abortion services for years.

E: also normalizing abortion isn't a particularly new or controversial concept in feminism and it's honestly kind of weird to see this kind of push back in a predominantly leftist space.

quote:

It is 100% accurate to say that for many, or even most women, abortion isn't a big deal.

The Sean posted:

Cool. I appreciate the honest response.

The phrasing I was referring to from OP was "insisting that referring to it as unfortunate was adding to the stigma."
* I don't feel that anyone should feel stigmatized for getting an abortion.
* I feel that access to abortions is a fortunate thing.
* In not all situations is it a fortunate "occurence"
* "insisting to referring to it as an unfortunate occurrence" (paraphrasing op) denies that for some persons it is not actually a good experience. This is why I asked for clarification rather than coming at them with an assumption. I can give respect for the use of the word "occurrence" as something that happens to a person not of their choosing or something that they have to take blame or responsibility for.
* I have had one or more persons in my life have a lovely situation (not going to add details) to where access to an abortion was a fortunate option versus it not being an option but the whole experience was not fortunate as a whole.
* I understand and support the concept of not making people feel ashamed for it, but there are a whole bunch of details for many persons that don't make an abortion a "fortunate occurrence."
* The phrasing from OP said "many people" and I thought that was a broad stroke--hence my question.

CuddleCryptid posted:

That entirely depend on how you ask the question. Defunding the police is not popular, but all the polls for shifting money from the cops to social programs show strong support.

As with most things like this the slogan was direct and honest but required a small amount of background to understand and therefore was an utter failure at accomplishing it's goals because no one reads below the headline.

tk posted:

Give me proof of this:

quote:

In an interview with the San Antonio Report, Clyburn downplayed the significance of abortion among his party’s base.

“Does this issue carry more weight than voting [rights]? I don’t think so,” Clyburn said. “I think restoring the Voting Rights Act is a much weightier issue than this.”

theCalamity posted:

theCalamity posted:

I think focusing on the popularity of defund the police is shortsighted. There is a tendency among Democrats that they must immediately show that they are tough on crime. They want to show how they’ve funded the police more than Trump, for example. Or make crime bills more punishing.

If the point is to have more people vote for you than the other side, then give them a reason to vote for you and decrease the amount of potential police interactions that could end up getting them killed or disenfranchised.

tk posted:

Give me proof of this:

GreyjoyBastard posted:

Not sure how much I care about twenty conservative democrats, representing less than ten percent of the D caucus, sending a letter expressing a conservative Democratic opinion.

CuddleCryptid posted:

Ultimately the actions of the democrats when it comes to crime and punishment demonstrate that the party at large is extremely insecure. You see it all the time, whether it's accusations of being soft on crime, afraid of war, or socialists, they simply are unable to take any accusation against them, no matter how groundless, on the cheek. They constantly have to defend themselves, and the other side uses it against them constantly, and they *still fall for it every time*.

Lib and let die posted:

All the democrats would have to do to fight half of the scaremongering from the right is just point out what the left criticizes them on - "What do you mean we're socialist? The private, capitalist healthcare industry has never been as profitable as it has since Obamacare!"

"What do you mean we're soft on terror? We bombed a children's hospital because it might have been a cover for Al Qaeda!"

But then they'd have to answer to the people they keep votescolding and peacocking about being progressive to which puts them in another awkward position.

Spoke Lee posted:

These posts show just how little people know about how the severely disabled live their lives, and how little they care to know.

RBA Starblade posted:

I think we tried chasing to the right before, and it didn't work out how anybody wanted it to.

Lib and let die posted:

All the democrats would have to do to fight half of the scaremongering from the right is just point out what the left criticizes them on - "What do you mean we're socialist? The private, capitalist healthcare industry has never been as profitable as it has since Obamacare!"

"What do you mean we're soft on terror? We bombed a children's hospital because it might have been a cover for Al Qaeda!"

But then they'd have to answer to the people they keep votescolding and peacocking about being progressive to which puts them in another awkward position.

Parakeet vs. Phone posted:

I don't know, they mostly just ran away from Obamacare. It'd be fun or at least interesting to see the alt-universe where they really, really dug in on it just being Romneycare/a private handout and owned it.

virtualboyCOLOR posted:

Personally I feel the correct response is “so what?”

Seems to have worked for the right.

People gravitate towards confidence and perceived competence, both of which the Dems do not have.

Epic High Five posted:

Is there some other way I'm supposed to interpret these comments other than "yeah don't expect us to do anything"? It's less important than something they failed utterly to do and just sort of moved on from without ceremony?

Like it's not even the usual talking points they've spent decades streamlining for these forced birther candidates in districts where taking a stand on anything is seen as too risky, did Newsom being mad at loud shake things up behind the scenes after all?

theCalamity posted:

While we’re at this, the Democrats need to be more like the GOP rhetorically. Say that the GOP claim to wants big government in your vagina. Say that they want big government in your bedroom to see who you’re loving. Say that the GOP wants to track your periods. That the GOP wants to take away your privacy. Get the GOP out your bedroom by getting them out of government

theCalamity posted:

While we’re at this, the Democrats need to be more like the GOP rhetorically. Say that the GOP claim to wants big government in your vagina. Say that they want big government in your bedroom to see who you’re loving. Say that the GOP wants to track your periods. That the GOP wants to take away your privacy. Get the GOP out your bedroom by getting them out of government

theCalamity posted:

While we’re at this, the Democrats need to be more like the GOP rhetorically. Say that the GOP claim to wants big government in your vagina. Say that they want big government in your bedroom to see who you’re loving. Say that the GOP wants to track your periods. That the GOP wants to take away your privacy. Get the GOP out your bedroom by getting them out of government

Professor Beetus posted:

"Not a big deal" maybe be a poor or crude choice of language but the numbers overwhelmingly say that abortion is a positive for women.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277953619306999?via%3Dihub

E: this study also directly confirms what I was saying; that stigmatizing abortions leads to more negative feelings about them.

quote:

As the US waits to see whether the supreme court will follow through on its provisional decision to end the federal right to abortion, Democrats and Republicans are already preparing for how a reversal of Roe v Wade would affect the 2022 midterm elections.

Republicans have been heavily favored to retake control of the House and probably the Senate as well, but the court’s forthcoming final opinion in the crucial Mississippi case now before it, Dobbs v Jackson Women’s Health Organization, could alter those predictions.

Since the court’s draft opinion leaked on Monday night, vulnerable Democrats have made a point to portray themselves as champions of abortion rights.

“My opponent says that overturning Roe v Wade and ending protections for a woman’s right to choose is a ‘historic victory’,” Catherine Cortez Masto, a Democratic senator who is up for re-election in the swing state of Nevada, said on Tuesday. “I trust women and their doctors to make the healthcare decisions that are best for them – not politicians.”

Speaking to reporters on a Thursday press call, Jaime Harrison, chair of the Democratic National Committee, argued that abortion rights will become a critical issue in the November midterms if the 1973 landmark decision in the Roe case is overturned.

“The Republican attacks on abortion access, their attacks on birth control and women’s healthcare – these things have dramatically escalated the stakes of the 2022 election,” Harrison said. “In November, we must elect Democrats who will serve as the last lines of defense against the GOP’s assault on our established and fundamental freedoms.”

But Republicans have insisted that issues such as record-high inflation and Joe Biden’s handling of the US-Mexican border will weigh far more heavily on voters’ minds in November.

“Could be wrong, but I’d predict that all those issues that have 60% of Americans [feeling] we are on the wrong track (high inflation, rising crime, the border, etc.) will play a bigger role in the elections [than] a Supreme Court decision on Roe,” Republican strategist Doug Heye said on Twitter.

Rather than celebrating the news of Roe’s likely demise, Republican leaders have mostly tried to focus on the leak itself, saying it represents a break in court decorum and blaming the incident on Democrats. (It is not known who leaked the draft opinion.)

Asked about the court’s provisional decision on Tuesday, the Senate minority leader, Mitch McConnell, told reporters: “You need, it seems to me, a lecture to concentrate on what the news is today. Not a leaked draft, but the fact that the draft was leaked.”

Even the de facto leader of the Republican party, Donald Trump, has been hesitant to address the content of the court’s decision. The normally verbose former president has not yet released a statement about the draft opinion, although he has commented on the leak when asked by reporters.

“Nobody knows what exactly it represents, if that’s going to be it,” Trump told Politico on Wednesday. “I think the one thing that really is so horrible is the leaking … for the court and for the country.”

Trump’s reluctance to address the draft opinion is even more notable considering his three supreme court nominees – Neil Gorsuch, Brett Kavanaugh and Amy Coney Barrett – all initially voted to overturn Roe, according to the leaked provisional opinion published on Monday night.

The former president also promised during his 2016 campaign to select supreme court nominees who would help reverse the landmark 1973 case.

Now Republicans stand on the precipice of achieving their decades-long goal, and many of them seem hesitant to declare victory. However, some Republican primary candidates are using the draft opinion to draw a contrast between themselves and their opponents.

David Perdue, the Trump-endorsed gubernatorial candidate in Georgia, condemned Governor Brian Kemp’s “bureaucratic response” to the news of Roe’s likely reversal.

“I’m calling on Brian Kemp to join me in calling for an immediate special session of the legislature to ban abortion in Georgia after Roe v Wade is overturned,” Perdue said on Thursday. “You are either going to fight for the sanctity of life or you’re not.”

Perdue and Kemp will face off in the Georgia gubernatorial primary later this month, providing an early test of how Republican voters feel about the looming end of Roe. But other Americans’ thoughts about the matter will not be fully known until November.

Meanwhile, new metal barriers went up in front of the marble steps and columns of the majestic supreme court building in Washington DC, close to the US Capitol, this week, a stark symbol of the sudden politicization of the court that has always preferred to keep itself above the partisan fray.

This came after fierce protests erupted there within minutes of the leak on Monday, with police separating protesters in rival camps the following day.

Now law enforcement officials in many places across the US are braced for potential civil unrest and women’s rights groups are planning massive protests in several cities for next weekend to demand the protection of the right to choose in reproductive healthcare.

CuddleCryptid posted:

Who would this really work on, though? You might get a few truly hard-core libertarians to vote third party but you're not going to have people going "what, but I like small government! Those guys are right, I'm going to vote Democrat for small government". All it would really do is push the idea that small gov is the key, which is counter to their supposed platform.

If it's just to make the GOP look like hypocrites then that ship sailed around the time of the Titanic and came to a similar end.

theCalamity posted:

There are voters who though Biden supported Medicare For All. It’ll work on those kind of voters. Shout it loud and long enough, people are going to start believing in what you say.

theCalamity posted:

There are voters who though Biden supported Medicare For All. It’ll work on those kind of voters. Shout it loud and long enough, people are going to start believing in what you say.


https://twitter.com/hawleymo/status/1521219563102298113?s=21&t=x6P59CkFUwl7jlsk5xrdVQ

Oh man it’d be sweet if we get some copyright reform from this

theCalamity posted:

https://twitter.com/hawleymo/status/1521219563102298113?s=21&t=x6P59CkFUwl7jlsk5xrdVQ

Oh man it’d be sweet if we get some copyright reform from this

RBA Starblade posted:

Depending on what that legislation actually looks like, this seems far easier to agree to than the billion dollar bomb that got thrown at Florida last week

BigRed0427 posted:

Is that still happening, or did the flordia government realize what removing their self governing status would mean?

Gumball Gumption posted:

The popularity of "Defund the police" is some "everyone loves the ACA but hates Obamacare" stuff. Everyone hates "Defund the police" since they assume the quiet part is "do nothing and let everyone die" but it's popular policy if it's presented as reform and changing the way public protection works.