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Willa Rogers posted:Jarring in that all of a sudden people are shouting DO SOMETHING when some of us have been screaming about it for 30 years while watching it happen incrementally. I think you're probably right if they do something that "only" impacts ~6% of abortions. But, given all the reporting that Roberts has been trying to get the other 5 conservatives to sign on to a less broad ruling that doesn't fully repeal Roe, I have doubts that the final ruling is going to be very restrained or narrow. Willa Rogers posted:"Only two," lolol forever. Going from ~37 to only 2 is a pretty big change.
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May 10, 2022 17:07
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:It doesn't matter for this specific bill if the filibuster is still intact. But, this would also die even if the filibuster was abolished because the two "pro-choice" GOP Senators said they would vote against it because it is "too extreme" and "polarizing" and Manchin is likely to vote no. How is the GOP more "pro-choice" when they're unified against pro-choice legislation while the Democrats still have a defector on it. Because Collins says in theory that she'd vote for a nonexistent pro-choice bill but gosh darn it she just hasn't seen an actual bill she likes yet? You know she's a liar right, she voted for Kavanaugh who had openly criticized Roe right up until he had to pretend to respect stare decisis to get confirmed. Murkowski too, she voted for Barrett she's just a liar
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May 10, 2022 17:08
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selec posted:We want you to reconsider the way you process News and Politics and ask why being wrong for years only yields contempt for people who were right. It seemed to be willa showing contempt for people, not the other way around. people becoming concerned and active when their rights are threatened is a good thing. getting mad that they didn't do it sooner seems off the mark a bit.
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May 10, 2022 17:08
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:It seemed to be willa showing contempt for people, not the other way around. people becoming concerned and active when their rights are threatened is a good thing. getting mad that they didn't do it sooner seems off the mark a bit. No, because the reason we are here is because people stupidly trust the party which failed us. So the failure has been on the part of the faithful: we’re asking you stop trusting an entity that should not be trusted. It’s good people are alarmed; the reason they have to be alarmed is the dependable bulwark they thought existed was only concerned with enriching itself, and had no intentions of actually being a bulwark. So insisting we trust them going forward just shows people did not learn a drat thing, might be incapable at a deeply emotional/sociological way of learning it, in the same way you could never learn to experience emotions your culture doesn’t have concepts for.
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May 10, 2022 17:10
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Seems to be ignoring the large numbers of people who donate and volunteer to fight for abortion rights via Planned Parenthood and other groups. There's huge amounts of direct citizen lobbying every year at both the state and national levels, not sure if Willa is unaware of that or if that's who she's referring to.
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May 10, 2022 17:12
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selec posted:No, because the reason we are here is because people stupidly trust the party which failed us. you're making this into a dems are bad argument for some reason, when willa was just mad at people for being concerned. you also completely forgot about the people that actually are advocating for this to happen for some reason. they seem pretty responsible. more so than most of dems in any case. they suck rear end, but they aren't the driving force here.
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May 10, 2022 17:12
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VitalSigns posted:How is the GOP more "pro-choice" when they're unified against pro-choice legislation while the Democrats still have a defector on it. Yes, should have said "officially" pro-choice. The huge drop in elected officials openly identifying as pro-life is noticeable. The Dems have historically had a decent-sized rump of pro-life members, whereas the GOP has had almost no pro-choice members since the mid 90's. This is just the first time the trend has been flipped.
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May 10, 2022 17:14
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Professor Beetus posted:Seems to be ignoring the large numbers of people who donate and volunteer to fight for abortion rights via Planned Parenthood and other groups. There's huge amounts of direct citizen lobbying every year at both the state and national levels, not sure if Willa is unaware of that or if that's who she's referring to. I mean there’s also a reckoning to be had there too. I support PP with donations, but I’m deeply curious as to what their post-mortem of this turn and their ongoing support for a party that failed us all will look like.
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May 10, 2022 17:15
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It's incredibly lovely to only care about things when they start to affect you personally
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May 10, 2022 17:16
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Oracle posted:Most people don't pay attention except for a few weeks every four years. Nebulous future risks are just plain not on most people's radar; its part of the human condition and why climate change has been so hard to fight. I'll do what I've done for the last 30 years: Call out members of the so-called pro-choice party when they muddy the waters by saying abortion should be "rare" or that "we're a big tent that welcomes everyone" or who buy into the tropes about "partial-birth" abortions. In other words, make Dems live up to the claims that they only trot out when they need votes or money. Name & shame, over & over, till they stop funding & campaigning for anti-choice pols on one pretext or another, or when they try to whitewash the anti-choicers by saying "it's only one or two" holding up progress on women's rights. And admit the truth that Casey led to this very moment, instead of shrugging it off as an inconsequential ruling. selec posted:We want you to reconsider the way you process News and Politics and ask why being wrong for years only yields contempt for people who were right. All this, too.
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May 10, 2022 17:17
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Elephant Ambush posted:It's incredibly lovely to only care about things when they start to affect you personally Agree. Solidarity means my liberation cannot happen without yours, and our fight is shared. The Dems are making it clear this week that whatever their fight is, it’s not for liberation.
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May 10, 2022 17:17
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selec posted:I mean there’s also a reckoning to be had there too. I support PP with donations, but I’m deeply curious as to what their post-mortem of this turn and their ongoing support for a party that failed us all will look like. Planned Parenthood's political arm also probably isn't proud of this anymore: quote:Planned Parenthood Honors U.S. Senator Susan Collins quote:For over 20 years, Planned Parenthood has recognized Republican lawmakers who champion reproductive health care issues and who fight to ensure the rights granted to women. quote:Statement from Cecile Richards, President of Planned Parenthood Federation of America: “Senator Collins has been an outspoken champion for women’s health. Thanks to Senator Collins’ steadfast commitment to her constituents, tens of thousands of women in Maine and millions of women across the country still have access to essential health care. Throughout this year, women’s access to health care was truly on the line, and Senator Susan Collins never wavered. Senator Collins has always taken the time to meet with and listen to our patients and our doctors. She has a true understanding of the work Planned Parenthood does, and has been a champion for our patients. We are forever grateful for Senator Collins’ leadership. quote:Statement from Meagan Gallagher, President & CEO of Planned Parenthood Northern New England: "Senator Collins understands the unique role we play in Maine. She's listened to the stories of our patients, met with our practitioners and answered the calls from thousands of our supporters. Her unwavering support of the care we provide has been instrumental in protecting our patients from political attacks, and it is an incredible honor to present her with this award as a thank you for standing with us and the millions of people who count on Planned Parenthood every day." quote:Statement from Randy Moody, National Co-Chair of the Republican Advisory Board: “The 2.4 million people who go to Planned Parenthood’s health centers every year are not going to make a political statement — they’re going to get high-quality health care. Women’s health is an economic issue- especially in rural and underserved areas. I applaud Senator Collins for her incredible work this year in fighting to protect women’s access to reproductive health care.” https://www.plannedparenthood.org/about-us/newsroom/press-releases/planned-parenthood-honors-u-s-senator-susan-collins
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May 10, 2022 17:18
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Elephant Ambush posted:It's incredibly lovely to only care about things when they start to affect you personally For sure, but most people are lovely. Getting mad at an individual for getting involved and getting informed now just seems petty. Getting mad at politicians is fine.
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May 10, 2022 17:20
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Planned Parenthood's political arm also probably isn't proud of this anymore: In retrospect the meltdown people had over Sanders calling PP a mainstream democratic interest group was entirely telling on themselves. I’ve started to donate to groups that are implicitly going to be breaking the law to deliver abortion services going forward, and will maybe just push all my PP giving to those.
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May 10, 2022 17:21
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selec posted:In retrospect the meltdown people had over Sanders calling PP a mainstream democratic interest group was entirely telling on themselves. I’ve started to donate to groups that are implicitly going to be breaking the law to deliver abortion services going forward, and will maybe just push all my PP giving to those. A federal ban would likely make such donations quite difficult, so give money now (if you can) while it is easily transferred and they aren't labeled as murder gangs and tracked by the FBI. Are there any existing threads somewhere on abortion support groups?
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May 10, 2022 17:26
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Professor Beetus posted:Seems to be ignoring the large numbers of people who donate and volunteer to fight for abortion rights via Planned Parenthood and other groups. There's huge amounts of direct citizen lobbying every year at both the state and national levels, not sure if Willa is unaware of that or if that's who she's referring to. Willa is very much aware of that. My point is that here we are now, 30 years after Casey, but only now people are upset & angry, and want to do something? Jesus, look at Obama stating that as president he had higher priorities than passing a choice act, as well as the incremental restrictions since 1992. Look at two out of three members of the House leadership campaigning for Cuellar after the Politico leak. Look at the roll calls on federal legislation banning late-term abortion, which to this day has led to a majority of Democratic voters conditionally supporting abortion based on the length of pregnancy. And we're supposed to thank our lucky stars that now people are riled up--when it no longer will do any good except in a PR-for-Dems sense--and that Cuellar is only one of three Dem members of Congress who are (openly) anti-choice? btw, I used to heavily donate to PP myself, till they became a loud and integral part of the Stop-Medicare-for-All contingent of Democrats.
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May 10, 2022 17:27
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Oracle posted:Most people don't pay attention except for a few weeks every four years. Nebulous future risks are just plain not on most people's radar; its part of the human condition and why climate change has been so hard to fight. I hate these appeals to "the human condition" so much. If that's really the case then why are there a ton of people, myself included, who don't fit into that description? What's wrong with us? Are we not human? Are we broken somehow? Are we mutants? Why is it that so many of us leftists have been shouting "if you are outraged at every injustice then you are a friend of mine" and similar for hundreds of years if not longer? Is awareness and outrage not part of "the human condition"? quote:I mean, what do you want, a cookie? Here, here's your cookie and your pat on the head. You and those screaming for decades were right, Willa. Bask in the glow of your victory. People like us have already been doing things. For a long time. Many of us are either activists of some kind or at least donators and volunteers in our communities. The question here is actually "now that all these Democrat defenders are finally starting to realize and admit that they were wrong, what are they going to start doing?" Acting like leftists only participate in society by posting on message boards and social media is incredibly insulting. If you've paid any kind of attention at all in the last 6 years you'd see that's a complete nonsense.
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May 10, 2022 17:28
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Planned Parenthood's political arm also probably isn't proud of this anymore: I mean if you read the press release it does show that much of her voting record at that point was supportive of reproductive health care. And part of political action at that level is to foster relationships like that. The fact that Collins and Murkowski have collapsed into spineless puddles in recent years doesn't really change that calculus. When I was helping lobby groups at the state level (taking groups of volunteers, coaching them through talking points, trying to get reproductive health legislation passed), it was far more important to put effort into trying to sway Republican state senators and reps because in my state pretty much every Democrat was onboard with our bills, without any lobbying needed. All we needed to do for them was remind them not to miss the loving vote. It's frustrating, hard work to try and convince the other guys, but in a functional democracy it is work that needs to get done. Perhaps Planned Parenthood should have realized that we were no longer a functional democracy in 2017 and that even "pro-choice" Republicans were a lost cause, but it wasn't always so and was different much more recently than people here would like to admit.
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May 10, 2022 17:29
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:you're making this into a dems are bad argument for some reason, when willa was just mad at people for being concerned. This is a really lovely way of framing what's been my 50-year advocacy of & activism for bodily autonomy while Dems are still campaigning for anti-choice Dems & making excuses for their several-decades fence-sitting.
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May 10, 2022 17:30
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Biden just laid out his plans to fight inflation in the next 6 months in a speech.quote:- Fed raises interest rates (White House has no control over this, but will be making policy with this in mind) So... unless they find some ways to REALLY speed up ports or REALLY creative ways to directly lower costs, then it is basically nothing direct. To be fair, the vast majority of inflation is something the U.S. has no direct control over. But, the White House has decided to do the "only shoot for things that are easily or likely achievable and tell people things that are technically true, but dispiriting" approach to politics in the face of obstacles outside of their control instead of the "it's out of your control, so at least aim high and go big rhetorically" strategy. Seems like a bad strategy.
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May 10, 2022 17:32
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Oracle posted:Most people don't pay attention except for a few weeks every four years. Yep. When you really think about it, how many times and on how many occasions does the phrase "We Don't Talk Politics at ___________" come up? We don't talk politics at work. No politics at the dinner table. At parties it can be a real conversation killer. This is a family gathering, so no politics. Hey, this is the bowling/softball league let's leave politics out of this. So...when exactly are we supposed to discuss it? We're NOT. We're supposed to work 40 - 50 hours a week and shut the gently caress up until we get old and die. I bolded that job part up there because, in my experience, it's almost always the conservatives that break the "none of this poo poo at work" rule and, in fact, it's them that never shut the gently caress about it; often coming from your bosses and supervisors. Could just be where I live but I get the sense it has just as much to do with their pious stance that Real Americans are Christians and poo poo like that. I've heard time and time again from the people directly or indirectly responsible for my paycheck about how "this isn't in a union job" or "This isn't government work" and most people are cowed by it, including myself, since they want to curry favor with the boss or, at a minimum, not get fired. In my younger days, I didn't worry as much about shooting off my big mouth but these days, 9 times out of 10, I either shut the gently caress up or kind of quietly interject a fact somewhere. Aside and semi related: I got bitched out once for coming out of the shitter with a book one time and was asked where else I ever worked where that was allowed. I mean my manager flipped the gently caress out about it. I said "Everywhere. I read when I poo poo." The places I'd worked even had reading material in the stall. He said "maybe at one of those union shops" and just loving went off. I said "well, most people just read on their phone or play candy crush". I've never worked for a union in my life. It was weird.
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May 10, 2022 17:33
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Elephant Ambush posted:I hate these appeals to "the human condition" so much. If that's really the case then why are there a ton of people, myself included, who don't fit into that description? What's wrong with us? Are we not human? Are we broken somehow? Are we mutants? Why is it that so many of us leftists have been shouting "if you are outraged at every injustice then you are a friend of mine" and similar for hundreds of years if not longer? Is awareness and outrage not part of "the human condition"? Feel free to get mad at me. I'm the person that lies low politically until things start getting really scary to me. That'll definitely help us align and mobilize better.
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May 10, 2022 17:38
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Willa Rogers posted:My point is that here we are now, 30 years after Casey, but only now people are upset & angry, and want to do something? My point is that you are banging on about an unprovable because I have no idea what "people" means in this case because people very clearly have been mad and upset about the erosion of rights and have been active politically to try and push back against it. Who specifically are you talking about? It seems like you are making the exact same assumptions about others that you get angry about posters here making about you (i.e. all you're doing is posting about it). Are you privy to the inner thoughts of everyone currently angry and up in arms about this? Do you know that they weren't volunteering with pro-choice groups or donating to them or writing letters to their congresspeople? The idea that you alone were mad about things for the past thirty years is narcissistic and absurd. E: I would encourage anyone upset by the direction Planned Parenthood's political action wing has gone in the past few years to consider supporting NARAL as an alternative, or volunteering with Planned Parenthood's clinical side (which is funded separately from the political org), such as working as a clinic escort. There are usually other things you can do as well if you don't want to potentially put yourself in harm's way. Professor Beetus fucked around with this message at 17:47 on May 10, 2022 |
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May 10, 2022 17:39
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Willa Rogers posted:This is a really lovely way of framing what's been my 50-year advocacy of & activism for bodily autonomy while Dems are still campaigning for anti-choice Dems & making excuses for their several-decades fence-sitting. I didn't frame anything that way. You said yourself it was jarring to have people get involved now instead of some time in the past. It is frustrating that people have been asleep at the wheel for my entire life, but that's just been normal for most people my age. I was born after Roe and was only of voting age right in the middle of Bush's second term. Abortion has been under attack my entire life, and nobody's done jack to protect it despite the obvious assault. it's no different than the litany of other topics that have the same story. climate change, voting rights, etc. Anyone that decides to get pissed off should be welcomed, especially considering many of the people this conversation started were younger individuals.
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May 10, 2022 17:43
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It's worth noting that there is no actual evidence that this is real. By "received a statement from the group", Evans actually means "one of my friends found a manifesto on the internet and forwarded it to me". Evans seems extremely confident in its authenticity, but he also makes some extremely basic mistakes which suggest he doesn't really have any idea what he's talking about and is just taking this anonymous friend at their word. Most importantly, he repeatedly refers to the manifesto's source as a "Tor site" when it has literally nothing to do with Tor - it's just a standard anonymous file uploader website hosted on the normal internet. The only thing that's notable about it is that the site seems to have a fifty/fifty chance of downloading a virus instead of the txt file containing the supposed manifesto. As expected of Bellingcat, I guess. As for the manifesto itself, I'm obviously no expert, but it feels rather dubious to me? I find it hard to believe anyone would do pro-abortion terrorism a week after the Supreme Court reveals it's planning to overturn Roe, and then issue a manifesto that doesn't even mention Roe, politicians, or the Supreme Court. And demanding that all anti-choice organizations nationwide dissolve themselves because of a single Molotov is obviously ridiculous. VitalSigns posted:How is the GOP more "pro-choice" when they're unified against pro-choice legislation while the Democrats still have a defector on it. It's not nonexistent. Collins and Murkowski have Main Paineframe fucked around with this message at 17:50 on May 10, 2022 |
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May 10, 2022 17:47
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I didn't frame anything that way. You said yourself it was jarring to have people get involved now instead of some time in the past. It is frustrating that people have been asleep at the wheel for my entire life, but that's just been normal for most people my age. I was born after Roe and was only of voting age right in the middle of Bush's second term. Abortion has been under attack my entire life, and nobody's done jack to protect it despite the obvious assault. it's no different than the litany of other topics that have the same story. climate change, voting rights, etc. This.
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May 10, 2022 17:51
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Oracle posted:This. Sure, get into the streets. Join a movement. Just don’t be a vote scold or dismiss leftists out of hand anymore, or attempt to bait them into getting probed. You’re on our side now, that’s great, but you need to respect your forebears.
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May 10, 2022 17:54
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selec posted:Sure, get into the streets. Join a movement. Just don’t be a vote scold or dismiss leftists out of hand anymore, or attempt to bait them into getting probed. You’re on our side now, that’s great, but you need to respect your forebears. How old even are you, dude.
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May 10, 2022 17:55
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Oracle posted:How old even are you, dude. Old enough to have voted in 94. Edit: My point is, up until last week, the majority of democratic voters had no idea how to actually fight for a right, and still don’t. They have the ability to learn, though, at least some of them.
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May 10, 2022 17:56
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I don't think it's unreasonable to be wary of liberals who only start caring about issues when they affect them personally. Because that means it's very likely that they'll stop caring again when they are no longer affected, and even go so far as to scold the people who do continue to care. In the end it's not very effective for building a sustained movement that protects all people, and just becomes about protecting relatively well-off white people.
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May 10, 2022 17:59
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selec posted:Sure, get into the streets. Join a movement. Just don’t be a vote scold or dismiss leftists out of hand anymore, or attempt to bait them into getting probed. You’re on our side now, that’s great, but you need to respect your forebears. to be frank our "forebears" haven't gotten poo poo done either and I don't see why they deserve any more respect than someone just starting the fight. nobody is vote scolding or dismissing leftists in this conversation. not to say they deserve disrespect, but the idea they know the way to the promised land is also not evident. Heck Yes! Loam! fucked around with this message at 18:01 on May 10, 2022 |
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May 10, 2022 17:59
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Main Paineframe posted:It's not nonexistent. Collins and Murkowski have It's non-existent. They proposing a law they know won't pass, and if it came close they'd withdraw their support. You even pointed out the fact that they haven't even introduced the bill. It's talk. They're not even wiling to go through the motions of pretending they'd ever support a bill. When they do something, let me know, until then they are not pro-choice.
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May 10, 2022 18:00
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I find it difficult to believe that Republicans will settle on it remaining a state issue.
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May 10, 2022 18:02
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Fister Roboto posted:I don't think it's unreasonable to be wary of liberals who only start caring about issues when they affect them personally. Because that means it's very likely that they'll stop caring again when they are no longer affected, and even go so far as to scold the people who do continue to care. In the end it's not very effective for building a sustained movement that protects all people, and just becomes about protecting relatively well-off white people. It is completely reasonable but it has nothing to do with liberals. it is just how many people are.
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May 10, 2022 18:03
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:to be frank our "forebears" haven't gotten poo poo done either and I don't see why they deserve any more respect than someone just starting the fight. nobody is vote scolding or dismissing leftists in this conversation. not to say they deserve disrespect, but the idea they know the way to the promised land is also not evident. How often since Roe did leftists control the presidency and house?
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May 10, 2022 18:04
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selec posted:Old enough to have voted in 94. At least this post is essentially saying "I disagree with the majority of democratic voters about what is a sufficient means of fighting for a right," which is not hinging on a disprovable of others' motivations.
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May 10, 2022 18:05
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selec posted:How often since Roe did leftists control the presidency and house? You seem to be agreeing with them in so many words.
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May 10, 2022 18:05
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Maybe they can get the level of federal protection the SCOTUS members get?
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May 10, 2022 18:06
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Nonsense posted:I find it difficult to believe that Republicans will settle on it remaining a state issue. If gun rights are any indication you are correct.
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May 10, 2022 18:06
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:It is completely reasonable but it has nothing to do with liberals. it is just how many people are. Yes, and people who are like that tend to be liberals. Self-interest is kind of a core component of liberalism.
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May 10, 2022 18:08
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