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RBA Starblade posted:He wasn't studying the emotion "liget" for years. He was studying the Ifugao tribe. He learned what it meant after he lost his wife. When was the last time you and some friends all responded to a stimuli with the culturally-understood urge to behead someone and ritually debase the victim?
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May 10, 2022 18:47
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selec posted:When was the last time you and some friends all responded to a stimuli with the culturally-understood urge to behead someone and ritually debase the victim? Dude that's just teabagging someone's corpse in a first person shooter
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May 10, 2022 18:51
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:to be frank our "forebears" haven't gotten poo poo done either and I don't see why they deserve any more respect than someone just starting the fight. nobody is vote scolding or dismissing leftists in this conversation. not to say they deserve disrespect, but the idea they know the way to the promised land is also not evident. I'd respect the janey-come-latelies if I saw them protesting in front of Cuellar's home as much as Kavanaugh's, or even mentioning Casey in context of this year's ruling. But hearing them limply suggest that voting & funding are the ways to the promised land is plum played out for me after 30 years of this poo poo. And again: I'm not talking about dnd liberals/democrats but rather about the party & its mouthpieces/leadership at large.
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May 10, 2022 18:53
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selec posted:Is your assertion that this guy doesn’t know what he’s been studying for years or what? That the phenomena hasn’t been studied? She has a framework to do research on emotions, but she does not say anything about what you indicated. also, an NPR article is still not published research. What does this have to do with the anthropologist again?
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May 10, 2022 18:53
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selec posted:When was the last time you and some friends all responded to a stimuli with the culturally-understood urge to behead someone and ritually debase the victim? quote:They told Renato that hearing the tape made their hearts feel liget. It makes us want to take a head, they told him, over and over. It makes us want to take a man's head and throw it. quote:Back in America, after the funeral and the resettling into daily life, this feeling continued to grow. But Renato did not know how to express it, how to define it. And then one afternoon, as he was driving down a sunny street in Palo Alto, Calif., he couldn't bear it any longer. He pulled to the side of the road, and a howl came roaring out of him. Notably, there's no machete murder followup to this story. You've badly misread this. I'm also not sure it's wise for you to continue to tell us about your belief in the unique emotion that makes those natives want to behead people. RBA Starblade fucked around with this message at 18:56 on May 10, 2022 |
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May 10, 2022 18:53
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:She has a framework to do research on emotions, but she does not say anything about what you indicated. also, an NPR article is still not published research. What does this have to do with the anthropologist again? I’m going to stop responding after this because I don’t have the sense that I’m being engaged with in a meaningful pursuit of truth: ““Anger” is a cultural concept that we apply to hugely divergent patterns of change in the body, and there’s no single facial expression reliably associated with it, even in the same person. (Some cultures don’t have a concept that corresponds to “anger”, such as the Utku Inuit of Canada’s Northwest Territories.) The same is true, astonishingly, of “happiness”, “excitement”, “disappointment”, you name it. No emotion is tied to a single, objective state in the body. Rather, emotions are cultural artefacts. How could that possibly be the case? Don’t babies and toddlers fuss and bawl at some obstacle long before they have a word to describe the feeling? And don’t the Utku also experience their blood pumping faster and their muscles tensing up when confronted with a difficult problem? The answer is that of course they do, but that “anger” is merely one interpretation of these events, a culturally specific attempt to give them meaning.”
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May 10, 2022 18:57
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:That is not research. That's just a dude telling a story. stop peddling woo. I'm adding context and information. I'm not arguing with anyone in particular. To relate your thing about young people wanting to join up, I guess, is that often people do not know poo poo about organizing, but are enthusiastic and want to get involved. If there is no one to teach them or they are unwilling to learn, it leads to re-inventing the wheel. This wastes time and other resources when there are sometimes "best" practices. Other times there are multiple ways to do things but not enough bodies to take every course of action. That can lead to conflict. This is to say nothing of maturity issues or personality conflicts or burn out. Or security issues inexperience creates. In the cases where there are more experienced people who want to offer cross-regional or cross-movement support that come in, locals and young people specifically are afraid to do more because their safety and future is in direct danger. That makes it hard to keep those movements alive in places where they are needed most. More support would mean more security which would mean more people remain.
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May 10, 2022 18:59
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:such people are welcome to join. their voices, due to their tremendous inexperience and long years of faulty thinking up to this point, are not going to be given serious consideration until such time as it is clear they have figured out -why- they were wrong in the first place. A good description If you've ever been on a site where you have a large influx of eager volunteers you learn this. Go carry water for a bit, I'll give you the hand truck after a couple trips. Anyone who doesn't understand this has never managed people in an actual operation before.
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May 10, 2022 18:59
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I think we should hear out this culturally determined emotions theory, how else do you explain a ruling class so obviously incapable of feeling normal human emotions like empathy, humility, or shame. Or any human emotion really other than greed and ecstasy and the latter probably only when they're on adrenochrone.
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May 10, 2022 19:03
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Willa Rogers posted:I'd respect the janey-come-latelies if I saw them protesting in front of Cuellar's home as much as Kavanaugh's, or even mentioning Casey in context of this year's ruling. Cranappleberry posted:I'm adding context and information. I'm not arguing with anyone in particular. BlueBlazer posted:A good description I do worry that we discourage people from doing the right thing by making judgments on them or berating them for their past choices, but the points on operational necessity are well taken. it does seem like having to build "cred" in order to participate is a burden to building a populist movement where the barrier to entry should be minimal.
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May 10, 2022 19:06
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VitalSigns posted:I think we should hear out this culturally determined emotions theory, how else do you explain a ruling class so obviously incapable of feeling normal human emotions like empathy, humility, or shame. Or any human emotion really other than greed and ecstasy and the latter probably only when they're on adrenochrone. I’m back when I said I wouldn’t be, but yes, duh! “You can’t get a man to understand something his paycheck demands he not understand” is a common given understanding, which is why it’s so puzzling to see posters so extremely repelled by the notion that a person who grew up comfortable cannot understand, meaningfully, what poverty feels like and does to people, what immiseration actually is, why people want to tell Dems to gently caress off permanently. Conversely; I don’t know what it feels like to be okay with living on a hoard and ignoring the suffering of the poor. But some folks sure do!
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May 10, 2022 19:06
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BlueBlazer posted:A good description It is important for there be a job for new people to do, though, even if it is just make-work. A few years back I tried to volunteer for helping with planned parenthood events, which yes is a corporate beast, but there are some clinics close to me in Michigan that I figured I could at least empty trucks or something at. So I went through, interviewed over the phone, signed the paperwork, and got my marching orders which were to donate money. Okay, well, I already donate a good amount of money, since this is something I care about enough to volunteer for. Was there something else I could do? Turns out the answer was "wait until you have more money to donate". Since then we have moved to donating to provider groups that need it more than PP, but I wouldn't lie and say that it wasn't demoralizing to try and put myself out there to help and waiting months for something to do just to find out that essentially I wasn't wanted unless it's to pony up more cash. CuddleCryptid fucked around with this message at 19:17 on May 10, 2022 |
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May 10, 2022 19:12
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selec posted:I’m back when I said I wouldn’t be, but yes, duh! “You can’t get a man to understand something his paycheck demands he not understand” is a common given understanding, which is why it’s so puzzling to see posters so extremely repelled by the notion that a person who grew up comfortable cannot understand, meaningfully, what poverty feels like and does to people, what immiseration actually is, why people want to tell Dems to gently caress off permanently. That's actually a good way to put it and I think where people are a little confused on the concept you're bringing up. I think you're describing it a bit woo but it's pretty solid. To try to easily summarize, almost everyone has the capacity to feel guilt and that's built into you as part of your biology with rare exception. The things that make you feel guilt are primarily decided by your culture and what they value. This also applies to all of our senses. We see the same light spectrum, our culture and language decides how we understand those colors. We hear the same sounds, our culture and language tells us what sounds we hear animals make.
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May 10, 2022 19:14
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This is my SHOCKED face: Elon Musk says he would reverse Twitter ban on Donald Trump Musk, the Tesla CEO who is soon to own Twitter, said it was a mistake for the website to ban the former president. https://s2.washingtonpost.com/36cdd44/627aa3ee61cc0f41faa04134/5a0d96f4ae7e8a2d8fca6c54/4/13/627aa3ee61cc0f41faa04134
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May 10, 2022 19:17
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Gumball Gumption posted:That's actually a good way to put it and I think where people are a little confused on the concept you're bringing up. I think you're describing it a bit woo but it's pretty solid. To try to easily summarize, almost everyone has the capacity to feel guilt and that's built into you as part of your biology with rare exception. The things that make you feel guilt are primarily decided by your culture and what they value. Or to even call it guilt! You may feel what I would call guilt and have it described as self-doubt, or fear, or being defeated. Have a friend who described once talking pretty basically about privilege among some friends and they all assumed he must be depressed to talk like that. People can not even have a concept for what a thing is, and completely mislabel it: like how protesters get described as do-nothing hippies, when they’re out doing much more than most ever do, or how any non-voting political action is painted as useless at best, or terrorism waiting to pop off. Those liberals so concerned about protesting at SC judges houses might be in earnest, because they are literally incapable of understanding how power works. I think there are posters in this very thread who could not conceptualize of any other framework for our society than a capitalist one, for instance. Like not don’t like the idea, but rather even if it’s explained to them it cannot stick because they aren’t making an effort to learn, and the ideas run counter to propaganda they’ve consumed their entire lives, and continue to. selec fucked around with this message at 19:20 on May 10, 2022 |
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May 10, 2022 19:17
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selec posted:Or to even call it guilt! You may feel guilt and have it described as self-doubt, or fear, or being defeated. Yeah, even just calling it guilt. This honestly isn't that controversial and is why things like CBT therapy break emotions down into the thoughts, feelings, and behaviors that make up your emotions and work on giving someone language for their emotions. All three come together to form your emotions and all are influenced by culture as well.
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May 10, 2022 19:21
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Willa Rogers posted:I'd respect the janey-come-latelies if I saw them protesting in front of Cuellar's home as much as Kavanaugh's, or even mentioning Casey in context of this year's ruling. This is a really fair point and I think clarifies that a lot of people are just talking crosswise. Tons of people who are incensed about this opinion and getting activated aren't the terminally online internet poisoned people arguing about the dirtbag left. I definitely get the sense (rightly or wrongly) from this thread that posters here only think in a binary of good leftist activists and die-hard Clintonistas and so when they rage about the new blood being untrustworthy shitibs who need to acknowledge how they hosed up, I'm reading it as them raging against somebody waiting tables for $3 an hour plus tips and no health insurance who's so shot trying to make it through the week that they don't have mental space for these things until something seismic happens and now wants to get involved, when they actually are meaning the Rahm Emmanuels and Neera Tandens of the world.
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May 10, 2022 19:24
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Dopilsya posted:This is a really fair point and I think clarifies that a lot of people are just talking crosswise. Tons of people who are incensed about this opinion and getting activated aren't the terminally online internet poisoned people arguing about the dirtbag left. I definitely get the sense (rightly or wrongly) from this thread that posters here only think in a binary of good leftist activists and die-hard Clintonistas and so when they rage about the new blood being untrustworthy shitibs who need to acknowledge how they hosed up, I'm reading it as them raging against somebody waiting tables for $3 an hour plus tips and no health insurance who's so shot trying to make it through the week that they don't have mental space for these things until something seismic happens and now wants to get involved, when they actually are meaning the Rahm Emmanuels and Neera Tandens of the world. And that's fine - I welcome their involvement, but (to build on your restaurant framework) I'm not letting you cut the prime rib until I know you can cut the loving bread and not present a danger to yourself, others, or the restaurant itself. You walk in my kitchen and demand to start being allowed to slice up the king cuts when I don't know you from loving Adam isn't going to gain you anything. Here's baby's first serrated knife, go show me you can cut a loaf of Italian bread. And don't be surprised when I ask the waiters if the bread looks nice on the table or if it looks like some hamfisted goon slashed it all up.
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May 10, 2022 19:29
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I do worry that we discourage people from doing the right thing by making judgments on them or berating them for their past choices, but the points on operational necessity are well taken. it does seem like having to build "cred" in order to participate is a burden to building a populist movement where the barrier to entry should be minimal. there is something to be said about this- which is that many people who join are likely to drop out, for a variety of reasons. It may mean they weren't serious or they don't like what the group is doing or don't feel like they are being used appropriately or they feel like the group is just spinning wheels or they didn't really have the time/energy to do more or or or. It is important that they build their credibility with a particular group even if it's just showing up, putting in time and letting people get to know them. Too often there will there be a huge influx because something was a big hit in the news, only for it to dwindle to almost no one new. on this forum there is very little organizing being done and I do not expect there to be. So it's not like I'm here to criticize SA posters for not doing enough, which sometimes people interpret me as saying. Rather, it's just that there are probably options available to do something, even if it's just local charitable work.
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May 10, 2022 19:30
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Jaxyon posted:Supporting a bill that has a chance of passing would be a great start. By that metric, it's impossible to "do something", because no one in the Senate is supporting a bill that has a chance of passing. selec posted:When was the last time you and some friends all responded to a stimuli with the culturally-understood urge to behead someone and ritually debase the victim? Have you never heard the expression "I'm going to rip off your head and poo poo down your neck"? It's a perfectly recognizable sentiment, though rarely put into practice these days because vigilante violence has been considered socially unacceptable for generations in much of the West.
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May 10, 2022 19:31
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VitalSigns posted:It's from 2017, in other words 12 years after Collins voted to confirm Sam Alito the author of the leaked anti-Roe draft If you actually read the press release, it has specifics on family planning bills that she voted for and sponsored. I guess if you're going to write all that off as "unimportant stuff" then, so be it. I'm just pointing out that it wasn't even that long ago that you could get Republicans on board with a lot of family planning stuff because it's a net positive and saves the government a tremendous amount of money to fund it. I don't personally like PP elevating Republicans doing the bare minimum and certainly wouldn't have a "Barry Goldwater Award" if I were running Planned Parenthood; I'm just explaining the reasoning behind it. Willa Rogers posted:I never said I was the only one angry about this; I said I've watched liberals either ignore the ramifications of Casey or make excuses for anti-choice Dems over the past three decades. Because you make vague unprovable general statements about "liberals" rather than talking specifically, and it is annoying when I am 100% sure that there are also "liberals" who have been paying attention, and donating to pro-choice causes, and going to capitol buildings to support pro-choice causes, and trying to make their voice heard about Roe. In fact there are many people who have done this who are farther to the right of anyone currently posting in DND. So when you say things like this Willa Rogers posted:Jarring in that all of a sudden people are shouting DO SOMETHING when some of us have been screaming about it for 30 years while watching it happen incrementally. it comes across as very unclear about who exactly you are talking about, until you follow up with specifics in later posts.
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May 10, 2022 19:33
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Main Paineframe posted:By that metric, it's impossible to "do something", because no one in the Senate is supporting a bill that has a chance of passing. I agree, Dems have done nothing on this. And now they can't. Their support is just as hypothetical as the "pro-choice republicans". Except those two directly voted for justices they knew were anti-choice.
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May 10, 2022 19:36
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Main Paineframe posted:Have you never heard the expression "I'm going to rip off your head and poo poo down your neck"? It's a perfectly recognizable sentiment, though rarely put into practice these days because vigilante violence has been considered socially unacceptable for generations in much of the West. I’ve heard it, but this was never a socially acceptable, even mandatory practice with rituals around it in the US. There is literally no parallel here, it’s an alien, abstract concept to us, in the way that believing, truly believing that someone pointing a bone at you could kill you, to the point that some modern nations have laws against that.
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May 10, 2022 19:37
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selec posted:I’ve heard it, but this was never a socially acceptable, even mandatory practice with rituals around it in the US. There is literally no parallel here, it’s an alien, abstract concept to us, in the way that believing, truly believing that someone pointing a bone at you could kill you, to the point that some modern nations have laws against that. This exchange made me think of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5wNL29kdek 
Heck Yes! Loam! fucked around with this message at 19:45 on May 10, 2022 |
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May 10, 2022 19:39
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It’s only socially acceptable when Duke Nukem does it This discussion appears to be dancing around how strong we consider the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis to be, but the consensus among linguists seems to be “not very strong”
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May 10, 2022 19:40
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CuddleCryptid posted:It is important for there be a job for new people to do, though, even if it is just make-work. A few years back I tried to volunteer for helping with planned parenthood events, which yes is a corporate beast, but there are some clinics close to me in Michigan that I figured I could at least empty trucks or something at. So I went through, interviewed over the phone, signed the paperwork, and got my marching orders which were to donate money. Oof, this is something that gets lost in all the discussion but it's an important point. It's not always about bad actors, sometimes it's just logistics, a lot of our operations at the ground level could use some better organization. I would keep trying other orgs. Another way is starting your own thing that you can apply your personal skill set too. I'm a Data Scientist and one of my side projects is partnering with an old college friend (who works in mental health) on a data driven college campus Sexual Assault Prevention initiative. It's literally just me and her meeting up on zoom once a week to work on our pitch deck and MVP but it's been good.
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May 10, 2022 19:44
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selec posted:I’ve heard it, but this was never a socially acceptable, even mandatory practice with rituals around it in the US. There is literally no parallel here, it’s an alien, abstract concept to us, in the way that believing, truly believing that someone pointing a bone at you could kill you, to the point that some modern nations have laws against that. Wasn't there a whole culture of mass retributive killings of native americans by settlers in the american west where large scale murder of men women and children was coupled with ritual mutilation via scalping, the product of which was then sold to the government as further incentive to boost these actions? Was that just done unemotionally then, as a logical transaction involving resource extraction and had no bloodlust behind it?
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May 10, 2022 19:46
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Professor Beetus posted:Because you make vague unprovable general statements about "liberals" rather than talking specifically, and it is annoying when I am 100% sure that there are also "liberals" who have been paying attention, and donating to pro-choice causes, and going to capitol buildings to support pro-choice causes, and trying to make their voice heard about Roe. In fact there are many people who have done this who are farther to the right of anyone currently posting in DND. So when you say things like this Here are my posts on the topic today: Willa Rogers posted:Many of us have been pointing out for three decades how the gasoline of Casey was leading to this five-alarm fire & making abortion virtually impossible to obtain in red states, only to see Democrats joining the right in banning "partial-birth" abortions, deciding that they had higher priorities than codifying bodily autonomy, and--to this very day!--continuing to campaign for anti-choice Dems. Willa Rogers posted:Jarring in that all of a sudden people are shouting DO SOMETHING when some of us have been screaming about it for 30 years while watching it happen incrementally. Willa Rogers posted:I'll do what I've done for the last 30 years: Call out members of the so-called pro-choice party when they muddy the waters by saying abortion should be "rare" or that "we're a big tent that welcomes everyone" or who buy into the tropes about "partial-birth" abortions. Willa Rogers posted:Willa is very much aware of that. Willa Rogers posted:This is a really lovely way of framing what's been my 50-year advocacy of & activism for bodily autonomy while Dems are still campaigning for anti-choice Dems & making excuses for their several-decades fence-sitting. Willa Rogers posted:I never said I was the only one angry about this; I said I've watched liberals either ignore the ramifications of Casey or make excuses for anti-choice Dems over the past three decades. Willa Rogers posted:I'd respect the janey-come-latelies if I saw them protesting in front of Cuellar's home as much as Kavanaugh's, or even mentioning Casey in context of this year's ruling. I think I was extremely clear on where the blame is to be laid, and from the start I pointed to Dem politicians & those who support them rather than dnd posters.
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May 10, 2022 19:48
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I think it's safe to assume the experience of emotion is fairly universal, but how we communicate those feelings and what we do with them or what we think they mean is going to fluctuate, yeah. I mean just as a superficial example you're going to associate anger with insult but some cultures have no concept of certain classes of insult. I am extremely dubious of anyone who claima to know what someone else is experiencing (particularly when the only way to know is to ask and we've already established the research is cross-culture and therefore dependent on successful translation) which is what makes science of mind so difficult, but there is definitely a chestnut in that idea somewhere.
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May 10, 2022 19:49
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I do worry that we discourage people from doing the right thing by making judgments on them or berating them for their past choices, but the points on operational necessity are well taken. it does seem like having to build "cred" in order to participate is a burden to building a populist movement where the barrier to entry should be minimal. Here's the thing: A total stranger in their 30s comes to you asking how they can help organize protests. How do you, an activist, know they're not a cop or a fed trying to infiltrate your protest groups and ruin them (which is a thing that cops and feds have done forever)?
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May 10, 2022 19:50
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Mendrian posted:I think it's safe to assume the experience of emotion is fairly universal, but how we communicate those feelings and what we do with them or what we think they mean is going to fluctuate, yeah. I mean just as a superficial example you're going to associate anger with insult but some cultures have no concept of certain classes of insult. I’d drill in to say say the experience of the physical responses to stimuli is what’s common, and those feelings are mediated by culture into nameable emotions, but yeah
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May 10, 2022 19:51
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:to be frank our "forebears" haven't gotten poo poo done either and I don't see why they deserve any more respect than someone just starting the fight. nobody is vote scolding or dismissing leftists in this conversation. not to say they deserve disrespect, but the idea they know the way to the promised land is also not evident. I look forward to these types of thoughts in 30 years when more people are upset about climate change. Certainly they won't be scolded for ignoring things before it was too late
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May 10, 2022 19:52
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https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/1524090721304776707?s=21&t=8hHCtleZ3Czg-nHHQ463WA This is really disappointing, but expected. They can move heaven and earth for war but when it comes to anything else that actually helps people, there are so many roadblocks.
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May 10, 2022 19:53
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theCalamity posted:https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/1524090721304776707?s=21&t=8hHCtleZ3Czg-nHHQ463WA I am done voting for anything above state level, and even state level is pretty meh rn. They are completely misaligned on my priorities.
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May 10, 2022 19:54
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theCalamity posted:https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/1524090721304776707?s=21&t=8hHCtleZ3Czg-nHHQ463WA So if the government expects 100 million to get COVID this fall, and the death rate is around say, .5%, surely that's enough to determine genocidal intent? They're intentionally killing 500,000 to fulfill their policy objectives.
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May 10, 2022 20:03
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theCalamity posted:https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/1524090721304776707?s=21&t=8hHCtleZ3Czg-nHHQ463WA 
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May 10, 2022 20:06
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theCalamity posted:https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/1524090721304776707?s=21&t=8hHCtleZ3Czg-nHHQ463WA Why is it disappointing? Tying aid packages together, tying any packages together seems like a guaranteed way to get it to fail, resulting in nothing. Any time I see anyone propose a bill concerning multiple topics I assume they are doing this to put their pet project into the spotlight because they know it's doomed to fail because of the other additional items they have on it.
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May 10, 2022 20:09
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Killer robot posted:That needs one more chart. If their turnout drops in midterms and we are theorycrafting about a midterm election, this means the voting bloc isn't capped for it, because there's still a pool of general-election-only evangelicals available to activate. There's no iron law preventing it, it's not roster rules in baseball or something. They just haven't to this point and you can't assume they won't as a given If you(and the poster you're defending) want to argue over whether losing or winning is more motivating, go for it, but that particular claim does not appear to be true and treating it like it is just undermines the argument being made
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May 10, 2022 20:09
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BetterToRuleInHell posted:Why is it disappointing? Tying aid packages together, tying any packages together seems like a guaranteed way to get it to fail, resulting in nothing. It's supposed to be a way of compromising. "Ok well if you want war funding to just enrich your cronies, then we want COVID funding to help those at home." And, in normal political climates, it can be done. Instead, here, they're saying "hey if you want Ukrainian aid, we want COVID aid" and McConnell is just saying "no...." and the Dems are going "lol ok nm." Then when it comes time to actually pass more COVID funding, McConnell is just going to block it. These aren't poison pills tying to each other, they're more pork like.
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May 10, 2022 20:14
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Yeah pretty much. Ukraine will get more money to be turned into rubble and there will be no more covid funding.
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May 10, 2022 20:21
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