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ImpAtom posted:Legally purchased guns are not going to help you and will if anything make you more of a target because the government will have records. You're actively arguing for people to have fewer ways to acquire a means to defend themselves from literal squadristi waiting for the go-ahead to put a bullet in them.
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May 28, 2022 16:21
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I don't disagree with either of those points but my point is that it's really silly to scold a bunch of scared leftists over people with power who do nothing. The guns will not be useful in a fight with the government and there are many options to arm people if things are breaking out in street violence. I do think the current arming of America has lead to a weird uneasy truce and we would see way more mass racial violence from the right wing. But the overall point is the leftists with guns are also not in the way of poo poo, pick your targets better.
Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 16:25 on May 28, 2022 |
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May 28, 2022 16:22
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Bathtub Cheese posted:I keep imagining you giving this preening lecture to people about to be forcibly removed to the Warsaw ghetto. It's the easiest way to realize you're on the side of the Nazis. This is a well-worn reactionary talking point. It’s not great for you to ask why the jews didn’t resist while implying that some rough, tough real brave Americans would have fought back and won the day. When you’re the target of a fascist system, there is no way to fight back because every aspect of society has been turned against you by degrees. When the Warsaw ghetto did fight back, it was because they had an army helping them.
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May 28, 2022 16:24
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Bar Ran Dun posted:We should repeal the second amendment. How about just underline the words "A WELL REGULATED MILITIA"
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May 28, 2022 16:25
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Gumball Gumption posted:I don't disagree with either of those points but my point is that it's really silly to scold a bunch of scared leftists over people with power who do nothing. Absolutely nothing effective will be done about gun violence just like all the other myriad problems the Democrats have only aggravated or let fester well past the point where we're locked in for a societal collapse. Bargaining with a political process that's long since failed to accomplish anything of value for society as a whole won't save your life, but having a means to keep dangerous people away from you might.
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May 28, 2022 16:27
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Punching left really is the only thing Democrats know how to do at this point, it's the only answer to literally loving everything. Scold the powerless and demand they solve all the problems they scream about themselves.
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May 28, 2022 16:29
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I AM GRANDO posted:This is a well-worn reactionary talking point. It’s not great for you to ask why the jews didn’t resist while implying that some rough, tough real brave Americans would have fought back and won the day. When you’re the target of a fascist system, there is no way to fight back because every aspect of society has been turned against you by degrees. When the Warsaw ghetto did fight back, it was because they had an army helping them. I didn't argue for any particular course of action, just that they shouldn't be denied the means to defend themselves. You're twisting my words to make me sound like "the real racist" in typical D&D fashion, when in fact most of the liberals posting here won't lift a finger against fascism regardless of the circumstances. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 28, 2022 16:29
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Gumball Gumption posted:I don't disagree with either of those points but my point is that it's really silly to scold a bunch of scared leftists over people with power who do nothing. The guns will not be useful in a fight with the government and there are many options to arm people if things are breaking out in street violence. I do think the current arming of America has lead to a weird uneasy truce and we would see way more mass racial violence from the right wing. But the overall point is the leftists with guns are also not in the way of poo poo, pick your targets better. what do you mean a truce, in 2 weeks one guy mass-shot up an asian church, another guy targeted black shoppers in a grocery store in a heavily black area, and a few days ago 21 people were shot to death at a school that is 90% hispanic Doesn't look like there's any kind of truce wrt racial violence, implicit or otherwise. If anything it looks like the opposite and look who is doing the dying. It looks like the extreme availability of assault rifles is leading to them routinely being used in racially motivated attacks Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 16:34 on May 28, 2022 |
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May 28, 2022 16:31
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If the guns are for some potential future unrest I think people are overlooking the strategy of burying crates of guns in your backyard. Or in the desert like in Terminator 2.
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May 28, 2022 16:32
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Bathtub Cheese posted:You're actively arguing for people to have fewer ways to acquire a means to defend themselves from literal squadristi waiting for the go-ahead to put a bullet in them. No, I'm not. I'm pointing out the method you are suggesting is ineffective and dangerous while offering no actual gain. In the year 2022 if the fascists take over, they have a completely different toolset than they did in the 1940s. If they decide to start mass executions in the streets your handgun is not going to help you because they won't need to be in a position where your handgun puts them at any meaningful risk. They will have all the items a modern militarized police force has and more and more freedom to use those things in terrible ways. Your handgun isn't going to protect you from a drone strike. If the great horror happens then you're not going to be saving anyone with a handgun. You will either have to flee, to find somewhere to hide, or be prepared to engage in asymmetrical warfare which means the 'terrorism' playbook, not the John Wick playbook. If you get into a position where you're in a gunfight then you've probably already lost and the best you can do is kill a few disposable pawns before you die. (And that is at best. More likely if you are a genuine risk we'll go back to Drone Strike and all your death will accomplish is getting the people nearby killed too.) The "I need a gun to stop the Nazis" is as pure fantasy as "I need a gun to stop Obama from forcing me to get gay married." It's a convenient 'feels good' fantasy that has absolutely no chance of working. Your gun is not going to protect you. You are not going to stop a dedicated military coup with anything less than actual unified forces and equipment that you're not buying from Wal-Mart.
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May 28, 2022 16:34
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Herstory Begins Now posted:what do you mean a truce, in 2 weeks one guy mass-shot up an asian church, another guy targeted black shoppers in a grocery store in a heavily black area, and a few days ago 21 people were shot to death at a school that is 90% hispanic We all know the government is never going to do a single thing to disarm racists so we can set that aside as a realistic alternative right off the bat
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May 28, 2022 16:35
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Those 3 shootings were actually all within a week, by the way. my bad, I thought they were more spread out
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May 28, 2022 16:36
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ImpAtom posted:No, I'm not. I'm pointing out the method you are suggesting is ineffective and dangerous while offering no actual gain. A gun can make successful flight from danger likelier and guerilla tactics (less realistic) generally involve guns. You're the one creating this strawman of an adventurist, frontal assault on state power, not me.
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May 28, 2022 16:37
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Gumball Gumption posted:I don't disagree with either of those points but my point is that it's really silly to scold a bunch of scared leftists over people with power who do nothing. The guns will not be useful in a fight with the government and there are many options to arm people if things are breaking out in street violence. I do think the current arming of America has lead to a weird uneasy truce and we would see way more mass racial violence from the right wing. But the overall point is the leftists with guns are also not in the way of poo poo, pick your targets better. Gun negligence/theft is a huge problem, contributing to gun violence overall without the gun owner's intent. While I can't state with certainty how many of these cases are from guns that are/were owned by a leftist (I haven't seen a study that breaks out figures based on detailed political leanings), I bet at least some of them are. So yes, I would say people who advocate for arming up for the mythical upcoming revolution or whatever are in the way of poo poo and contribute to increasing gun violence in our society. Kalit fucked around with this message at 16:43 on May 28, 2022 |
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May 28, 2022 16:38
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Why is gun control the one issue on which we have self-described leftists yelling "better things aren't possible"?
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May 28, 2022 16:40
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Kalit posted:Gun negligence/theft is a huge problem, contributing to gun violence overall without the gun owner's intent. While I can't state with certainty how many of these cases are from guns that are/were owned by a leftist (I haven't seen a study that breaks out figures based on detailed political leanings), I bet at least some of them are. drat if only we could pass laws to do something about it. But we can't so we've all accepted that posts like this are the most political influence we've got on this issue.
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May 28, 2022 16:45
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Bathtub Cheese posted:A gun can make successful flight from danger likelier and guerilla tactics (less realistic) generally involve guns. You're the one creating this strawman of an adventurist, frontal assault on state power, not me. This is not really accurate at all. Guns do not make escaping easier outside of action movies. They are loud, draw attention, and their presence tends to psychologically make people more likely to fight when they don't have to. You are not Solid Snake and if you reach the point you need to use a gun when you are escaping then you are probably extremely hosed already because that means they know where you are and even the cowardly 'restrained' police departments of today can track you down easily. Likewise, no, modern guerilla tactics are based around asymmetrical warfare. That means IEDs, assassination, chemical agents, and keeping hidden because once you are found then the US president authorizes a drone to obliterate you. When guns are used their primary use isn't self defense but as part of an ambush offensive attack. Hell, you want to know what is more likely to help you even if you singular goal is to kill as many Nazis as you can before they kill you? A fuckin' car. Arist posted:Why is gun control the one issue on which we have self-described leftists yelling "better things aren't possible"? Leftists are just as vulnerable to gun culture propaganda as right wingers. If you live in America you've probably absorbed a ridiculous amount of it just by osmosis and if you are scared/feeling hopeless/etc then that propaganda offers a way to grasp some measure of power, artificial or no, and once you have that power you don't want to give it up. That is the big problem with these arguments. It isn't about the effectiveness of guns. It's about the fact that guns provide a sense of power unlike anything else in the world and people are loathe to give that up, especially when they feel so helpless and powerless in their day to day life. And I empathize with that a whole lot. Living every day feeling terrified and hopeless quite literally kills you and if something provides comfort it can be actively damaging to be told that something isn't 'real'. The comparisons to religion are not incorrect because the point isn't the logical aspect, it is the sense of control it gives. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 16:56 on May 28, 2022 |
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May 28, 2022 16:48
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ImpAtom posted:This is not really accurate at all. To be fair the last thing our cities need is more cars.
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May 28, 2022 16:51
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Herstory Begins Now posted:what do you mean a truce, in 2 weeks one guy mass-shot up an asian church, another guy targeted black shoppers in a grocery store in a heavily black area, and a few days ago 21 people were shot to death at a school that is 90% hispanic It's disingenuous to lump the Uvalde shooting in with the other 2 along racial lines, the shooter was hispanic too.
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May 28, 2022 16:51
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Arist posted:Why is gun control the one issue on which we have self-described leftists yelling "better things aren't possible"? In his address to the central committee of the communist league in 1850 Marx famously stated of German workers "Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary." I understand disagreeing with this notion especially in the modern context of deadlier and deadlier weapons being developed but claiming it's some sort of fringe position of anti-capitalism rather than a common one both anarchists and communists have synthesized outside the context of Marx's specific address is just wrong.
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May 28, 2022 16:54
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CYBEReris posted:In his address to the central committee of the communist league in 1850 Marx famously stated of German workers "Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary." I understand disagreeing with this notion especially in the modern context of deadlier and deadlier weapons being developed but claiming it's some sort of fringe position of anti-capitalism rather than a common one both anarchists and communists have synthesized outside the context of Marx's specific address is just wrong. I was directly responding to this: Bathtub Cheese posted:We all know the government is never going to do a single thing to disarm racists so we can set that aside as a realistic alternative right off the bat
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May 28, 2022 16:55
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CYBEReris posted:In his address to the central committee of the communist league in 1850 Marx famously stated of German workers "Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary." I understand disagreeing with this notion especially in the modern context of deadlier and deadlier weapons being developed but claiming it's some sort of fringe position of anti-capitalism rather than a common one both anarchists and communists have synthesized outside the context of Marx's specific address is just wrong. So a major issue here that gets overlooked is that in situations like that you are discussing a unified group and relatively equal terms. (Not entirely equal but having a gun in 1850 put you on an entirely different level than in 2022.) Like if there was some sort of cohesive leftist group with actual access to equipment and unified leadership and all that then a gun would be infinitely more effective because you would have what amounts to an actual army. However the right wing has been more successful than anything else at making sure there is no unification among leftists because that is the easiest way to prevent them from being a danger. Even the absolute most left people in the world are vulnerable to rhetoric that causes them to exclude allies. If you want to discuss guns as an effective part of anti-capitalism then you need to work on everything else first. But that isn't what anyone is discussing here. Nobody is talking about a unified anti-capitalist army. They're talking about singular or small groups of people having to protect themselves without any outside help.
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May 28, 2022 17:03
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Arist posted:I was directly responding to this: Leftists having no confidence in liberal governments not to side with fascism is nothing new. It then becomes a question of whether an armed populace is an ideal or an unfortunate consequence. (I believe it's absolutely not ideal and cannot sustain as a placeholder status quo either.)
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May 28, 2022 17:09
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Part of the avoidance of right wing racist gun nuts going into minority areas to intimidate their neighborhoods is their fear of being shot. That's why they go where safe or require police escorts like they did when marching through Detroit a couple of years ago. There is a kind of implicit truce that exists now.PeterCat posted:It's disingenuous to lump the Uvalde shooting in with the other 2 along racial lines, the shooter was hispanic too. The Asian church shooter was Chinese, too, thats just a weird conflating he made in his response. Two of these are not like the others. Darko fucked around with this message at 17:21 on May 28, 2022 |
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May 28, 2022 17:18
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The church shooter would probably describe taiwanese people as an inferior race that deserves extermination, though, like that weird-rear end poster dnd used to have who would write at length about the inferiority of “jungle asians.” I wouldn’t rule out the school shooter being a fascist either, though he was probably not racist against hispanic people in any classic sense.
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May 28, 2022 17:44
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Darko posted:Part of the avoidance of right wing racist gun nuts going into minority areas to intimidate their neighborhoods is their fear of being shot. That's why they go where safe or require police escorts like they did when marching through Detroit a couple of years ago. There is a kind of implicit truce that exists now. my point in raising those is look at who is dying because of the current gun laws. See anything in common?
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May 28, 2022 17:50
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I AM GRANDO posted:The church shooter would probably describe taiwanese people as an inferior race that deserves extermination, though, like that weird-rear end poster dnd used to have who would write at length about the inferiority of “jungle asians.” Emmm...speaking form experience, we hispanics can be -quite- creative at drawing circles that places us into some white or near-white category and still poo poo on the lazy, irresponsible brown people that I sadly happen to share a last name with. Wealth, skin tone, accent, religion, even music, anything goes to split that hair as thinly as required. And given the elected officials in this particular city compared to its hispanic percentage, it's not out of the blue that this particular place has a heavy presence of the "I'm one of the good ones, I have a truck and want to build the Wall!" types.
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May 28, 2022 17:54
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I AM GRANDO posted:The church shooter would probably describe taiwanese people as an inferior race that deserves extermination, though, like that weird-rear end poster dnd used to have who would write at length about the inferiority of “jungle asians.” Well, to the surprise of nobody, he was really, really into guns and rape https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/27/us/yubo-app-salvador-ramos-threats-invs/index.html
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May 28, 2022 17:55
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Bathtub Cheese posted:You're actively arguing for people to have fewer ways to acquire a means to defend themselves from literal squadristi waiting for the go-ahead to put a bullet in them. I'm imagining you scolding grieving parents with this rhetoric. The real victims are always the gun owners.
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May 28, 2022 18:08
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It's crazy how many otherwise rational people honestly believe an AR-15 would be useful against the US military / cops in a civil war / pogrom situation. Gun fetishism is so deeply entrenched in the American psyche.
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May 28, 2022 18:20
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PT6A posted:Work towards stronger gun laws in the US rather than repeating the same pro-gun rhetoric that the right uses, now with a cool new Leftist flavour(tm)! It’s not a new flavor! The man himself was very clear on this, and “Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempts to disarm the people must be stopped, by force if necessary” Leftists are a tiny minority of the polity of the US, this focus on them is absurd outside the frame of these forums.
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May 28, 2022 18:22
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The Laguna Woods shooting is interesting because despite there being no police on the scene, the shooter was only able to kill one person who was tackling him and then got disabled and hogtied by what I can only assume was an elderly congregation milling around post-service, vastly cutting down the casualty numbers. The conversation on gun violence is very important, because in a non-gun armed invasion, Uvalde probably has ten injured from a knife attack, no fatalities, but it's really hard not to focus on the fact that if the police had bothered to do their jobs at loving all, the casualty count is probably five dead, eleven injured, somewhere in that ballpark, nowhere near nineteen dead. That of course would still be unacceptable, but if there was an order of prominence in this event, and I'm not saying there is, but if there was, I feel like it's hard to say the police incompetence didn't kill more people than the shooter naturally would have.
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May 28, 2022 18:25
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selec posted:It’s not a new flavor! The man himself was very clear on this, and We're talking about leftists rn because what percent of this thread (and for that matter SA as a whole) identifies as leftist. Even the gun fondlers and right wingers are sitting this one out because it's just that stupid of a time to try to convince people that actually ar15s are necessary, costs to schoolkids and shoppers be-damned Probably Magic posted:The Laguna Woods shooting is interesting because despite there being no police on the scene, the shooter was only able to kill one person who was tackling him and then got disabled and hogtied by what I can only assume was an elderly congregation milling around post-service, vastly cutting down the casualty numbers. The conversation on gun violence is very important, because in a non-gun armed invasion, Uvalde probably has ten injured from a knife attack, no fatalities, but it's really hard not to focus on the fact that if the police had bothered to do their jobs at loving all, the casualty count is probably five dead, eleven injured, somewhere in that ballpark, nowhere near nineteen dead. That of course would still be unacceptable, but if there was an order of prominence in this event, and I'm not saying there is, but if there was, I feel like it's hard to say the police incompetence didn't kill more people than the shooter naturally would have. if the police did anything particularly useful at all then he never would've made it inside
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May 28, 2022 18:25
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Honest question: What are persecuted groups to do when South American style death squads start enforcing the pointy end of right wing Theocratic Nationalism in a post fascist coup America? Just to be clear, I don't own a gun, never have and have no plans to. Ban them all tomorrow. But what do you do when state sanctioned paramilitaries start executing people?
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May 28, 2022 18:36
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davecrazy posted:Honest question: What are persecuted groups to do when South American style death squads start enforcing the pointy end of right wing Theocratic Nationalism in a post fascist coup America? Flee, if possible.
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May 28, 2022 18:38
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Bathtub Cheese posted:I keep imagining you giving this preening lecture to people about to be forcibly removed to the Warsaw ghetto. It's the easiest way to realize you're on the side of the Nazis. Hey, I've got a serious suggestion for you. If you don't know what you're talking about, shut the gently caress up. I don't want to be mean here, because D&D isn't about hurling bile at each other, but this discussion is absolutely loving rotten with people who are flippantly throwing around the names of vulnerable groups as justification for their blatantly ideological fantasies despite not having a single loving clue about the actual real issues those groups faced or are facing. If you're going to suggest that different gun laws would have saved hundreds of thousands of genocide victims, then I'm going to ask that you take this conversation seriously, instead of half-assedly bringing up the largest genocide in human history as just a smarmy cheap shot, okay? If you're going to bring up the massacre of millions of people as a political talking point, I would really appreciate if you did so with some basic respect and seriousness, and thought it through a little more. Otherwise, it's not really much different from gun nuts who look at a classroom full of dead kids and flippantly remark that more guns would have saved them. Except that they don't follow it up by accusing anti-gun folks of being literal Nazi supporters. Whether gun control laws had any impact on the Holocaust has been extensively discussed ever since this argument was first "academically" discussed in 2000...by a NRA lawyer with no previous experience in historical study, but plenty of experience with inventing dubious legal theories to support individual firearm ownership. The general consensus among historians is that the answer is a big fat "no". In fact, I'll just quote from a historian who specializes in Nazi Germany and the Holocaust, because he issues quite a strong takedown of it: quote:... Now, let's dig a little deeper into some of these points. First of all, there was no real organized resistance to the Germans gathering Jews into ghettos in the first place. This was not because the Jews were not heavily armed, but because they didn't know about the German execution programs and had no serious intention of seriously challenging the German military over mere deportations or labor camps. In particular, they were well aware by this time that armed action against the Nazis usually resulted in not only certain death for the people doing it, but also became justification for brutal mass reprisals against the general Jewish population. The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising ended in 13,000 Jewish dead, and 53,000 captured and sent to death camps, vs 100-200 German dead. The experience of Polish partisan groups that tried to attack the Germans attacking the Warsaw Ghetto was similarly illustrative; roof-mounted machineguns provided powerful suppressive fire to check their actions, and then literal truckloads of German soldiers showed up to push them back and drive them out. When the Germans started taking casualties, they seriously considered calling in bombers to level the ghetto, but in the end, they simply resorted to using flamethrowers, explosives, and smoke/water to flush attackers out of defensible spaces. The resistance fighters themselves knew that they had no serious prospect for success; the uprising happened simply because they realized that they were going to die no matter what, and the only choice left to them was to decide how they would die. Like, if you think that cops were just knocking on the door and politely escorting Jews to the death camps, you're dead loving wrong. And I don't even have to use words to explain how violent the suppression was, because the SS helpfully took extensive photography of their "liquidation" of the Warsaw Ghetto. I'm not going to post any of the pictures with dead bodies (believe me, there were plenty), which limits the impact these photos can have, but just seeing the level of destruction done to the buildings should be plenty enough to see how little effect handguns and AKs are actually going to have against a serious attack by actual fascist state forces.    This is what it looks like when the armed forces of a fascist government decide they're going to purge an entire neighborhood. And not only is that with 1940s technology, it's also from a service that had most of its best equipment off fighting a World War at the time. All this destruction was done by garrison forces far from the frontlines, using whatever equipment the frontline forces didn't need. Some of the defenders had pistols, hand grenades, or even rifles. Many of these photos of burning windows and destroyed buildings are probably photos of where those defenders were fighting, before they were firebombed by German soldiers or blown up by German cannons. This is what people mean when they say your handgun isn't going to save you from government tyranny. Burn those photos into your eyes, and think real deep about how a few people with handguns would have dealt with organized squads of soldiers armed with cannons, HMGs, and flamethrowers. Main Paineframe fucked around with this message at 18:45 on May 28, 2022 |
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May 28, 2022 18:43
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selec posted:It’s not a new flavor! The man himself was very clear on this, and There is absolutely no focus on leftist gun owners outside the frame of these forums, and most people don't even know they exist. And for all the talk of leftist preparation for threats, leftist community gun ownership and the upcoming civil war, it is not like leftists are really doing that stuff either. Right-wing gun.owners are, which honestly mostly makes me wonder why leftists aren't, but they aren't. Like, if you're afraid of armed right-wingers, where are the leftist gun crews standing opposite of fascist ones in protests? I see right-wing ones all the time, no left-wing ones. Since the police are loving cowards, I don't think they would start a gun battle at the mere sight of leftist armed protesters. You want to protect communities from right-wingers and mass shooters? Where are the neighborhood watches, then? Volunteer guards? Designated responders, leaders and organizers in the event of an attack of any sort? This isn't something the right-wing does but they're not interested in protecting their community as opposed to their immediate family/property, but I am not seeing any direct laws against it. If you're preparing for the civil war, where are the armed training camps out in the backwoods, the select members sent to either home or foreign militaries to gain specialized training, hidden weapons and supply dumps? Foreign clandestine contacts and supporters? Is the left organizing influence over the local institutions and establishing cells and cadres to take over things when poo poo hits the fan? Either they are and there's some sort of amazing ruthless military mastermind produced by people who still mostly think even Republicans are potential allies if they're poor instead of the guys they most likely have to kill first in any civil war scenario. Or they're not. What I am saying is for all the talk, I haven't seen armed leftists at protests (even the antifa just beat fascists up), I haven't seen any armed community organizing, and I haven't heard reports of FBI or ATF raids on leftist militant compounds in my lifetime. And if you're saying "Wow DarkCrawler, that sounds insane, are you saying leftists have to *insert here* that would just get them arrested/shot", I'm saying it sounds like you too, armed leftist, are operating like you still live in society and not a battle for survival. And so, why is aiming for less armed society an unrealistic prospect again? Because of armed right-wingers, mass shootings, other threats and the looming civil war? Well shouldn't leftists be doing...more, then? DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 18:56 on May 28, 2022 |
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May 28, 2022 18:52
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Arist posted:I was directly responding to this: Usually what people mean with "better things aren't possible" is the kind of capitalist realism of "this is the best possible world, so just lie down and accept the status quo". That's different from accurately pointing out that our current form of government cannot deliver the changes that we need, and more radical action will be necessary to achieve them.
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May 28, 2022 19:04
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Fister Roboto posted:Usually what people mean with "better things aren't possible" is the kind of capitalist realism of "this is the best possible world, so just lie down and accept the status quo". That's different from accurately pointing out that our current form of government cannot deliver the changes that we need, and more radical action will be necessary to achieve them. Yeah I think I misread that post, to be clear. I still think they were making bad arguments.
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May 28, 2022 19:06
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Bathtub Cheese posted:A gun can make successful flight from danger likelier and guerilla tactics (less realistic) generally involve guns. You're the one creating this strawman of an adventurist, frontal assault on state power, not me. This is just as silly. You're not gonna be in a Jurassic Park scene as Jeff Goldblum shouts MUST GO FASTER They will have helicopters, drones, night vision, and infrared. You won't lose them in a car chase, you won't lose them in the woods, you won't disappear in the sewer system. You will be dead and your guns will be in their hands.
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May 28, 2022 19:08
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