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Zulily Zoetrope posted:Yeah, but most RPG plots are reactive, where the protagonist is spurred into action by the villain, or some supernatural event, or even just a guide showing up and pointing them on the way. Edelgard and Claude are active in a way that is not typical for RPG protagonists, and definitely not for Fire Emblem lords, and even Dimitri is wholly driven by his past trauma. They start out as fully-fledged characters with drives and ambitions shaped by their pasts. This is assuming that Edelgard/Dimitri/Claude have to be your perspective character that you have perfect internal knowledge of, instead of the house as a whole. You could very easily have rotating perspectives, or have a less important member of the house be your initial representative. Fantasy stories have figured out many, many ways for one of the protagonist to have a hidden past or unclear motives that they're working towards that are revealed at a dramatic or pertinent juncture in the story without having to have an everyman blank slate outsider for the reader/viewer/player to project themselves onto and for other characters to exposit to - that's just the easiest and lowest effort way to write a story around. To use other RPG examples, you play as Cloud for the entirety of FF7 but you don't start the game understanding his trauma about Zack and Nibelheim and why he has a feud with Sephiroth. In Wild ARMs you have a rotating cast of perspective protagonists who all have their own past traumas and goals that drive their actions and you discover them as the story advances - Jack, one of your three characters, doesn't get his true past and his motivations explained clearly until like the 2/3rds point of the game, despite him being your perspective character for a fair chunk of it.
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Jul 4, 2022 14:39
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:lmao I just got to part 2 in Azure Blaze and I gotta say I appreciate how the game just goes "hey you haven't fought the Deer at all, so here, you can just have all the recruitable Deer characters at once, free of charge. Except Lysithea; you don't get Lysithea on the route where you get Thunderbrand for free." Lysithea has very little reason to join the Lions and experiences negative character growth in Azure Moon.
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Jul 4, 2022 15:32
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I was also let down by Crimson Flower a bit. It seemed pretty blatantly rushed, with less chapters than any other route and less fully-animated cutscenes. A lot of the plot threads didn’t really feel adequately explored and potential sources of conflict and drama (like Petra’s whole deal) end up feeling weirdly frictionless and static. It’s so weird that open conflict with the slitherers is set up midway through and then handwaved away and reserved for a line in the “where are they now” ending text. It’s weird that the lord that actually deals with the slitherers is the one who has no emotional investment in the matter whatsoever while the one with the most investment is just like “eh we’ll deal with that later”
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Jul 4, 2022 15:39
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Kanos posted:This is assuming that Edelgard/Dimitri/Claude have to be your perspective character that you have perfect internal knowledge of, instead of the house as a whole. You could very easily have rotating perspectives, or have a less important member of the house be your initial representative. Fantasy stories have figured out many, many ways for one of the protagonist to have a hidden past or unclear motives that they're working towards that are revealed at a dramatic or pertinent juncture in the story without having to have an everyman blank slate outsider for the reader/viewer/player to project themselves onto and for other characters to exposit to - that's just the easiest and lowest effort way to write a story around. Oh yeah, that you could do, but to me it'd still read as a story told from the perspective of an outsider character who is riding alongside the actual plot driver, just one that is less outside. If the contention is that the story is viewed from the perspective of a player insert character, I totally agree that that's not very interesting, and I appreciate that Three Hopes lets Shez clearly be their own defined person. But FF7 is like the definition of a reactive story. You spend most of it just following wherever Sephiroth and Aerith lead you, having no idea what they're thinking until after the fact, and it has a whole climactic series of events where you lose control of the protagonist and need the other party members to finally work out what the gently caress is going on in his head and glue him back together, at which point he admits that he has never really made a decision for himself at any part of the plot until just then, as he rallies the team to tackle the final dungeon for their own reasons.
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Jul 4, 2022 16:41
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Augus posted:I was also let down by Crimson Flower a bit. It seemed pretty blatantly rushed, with less chapters than any other route and less fully-animated cutscenes. A lot of the plot threads didn’t really feel adequately explored and potential sources of conflict and drama (like Petra’s whole deal) end up feeling weirdly frictionless and static. It’s so weird that open conflict with the slitherers is set up midway through and then handwaved away and reserved for a line in the “where are they now” ending text. It’s weird that the lord that actually deals with the slitherers is the one who has no emotional investment in the matter whatsoever while the one with the most investment is just like “eh we’ll deal with that later” I mean, consistency with Three Houses I guess?
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Jul 4, 2022 16:53
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Eimi posted:Huh that's interestingly a huge divergence from the other SB. In that version Claude remains loyal, you save him and Hilda from getting Dimitri'd and the Empire Alliance pact is still going, though both sides are worried about it's future. That also explain why the dialogue in Zahras felt like it didn't fit the route I was on, it'd match the bad route perfectly though. And yeah if Byleth is alive Hubert is annoyed that Edelgard is so into them and is probably coming up with a policy to ban swordswomen with mysterious powers. Oh huh, that is odd. That does explain why the betrayal is so slipshod and you punk him easily; it wasn't his plan all along. It is a pretty fun twist, though. You get a couple tactics to use Leicester back-up, and once his double cross is revealed, they get swapped for ones that take advantage of knowing about them beforehand, and you can just press the Hubert button to delete his fusillades or turn half his ambush troop into triple agent allies. You also get a pretty cool speech from Claude that I guess might not show up on any other route: "Everyone! Lend me your ears! Soon we will arrive in the Valley of Torment, where our Imperial allies will fight for supremacy against the forces of the Kingdom and Central Church. This is certain to be a violent and bloody battle. Death will indeed feast well this day. So think long and hard... Is this what you want? Yes, we signed a pact with the Empire - but only unde duress after they overran our lands! And what was the other option? To side with a corrupt church and the Kingdom they cling to? Never! A false choice is no choice at all! But now - right here and now - the Leicester Alliance has a chance to turn the tables!" *crowd murmurs, is cut off by swelling music* "Loyal friends! Brave allies! Fellow visionaries! Will we accept an emperor who pays for her needless wars in the coin of our blood? Will we submit to an archbishop and a king who would shackle us to their outmoded customs!? I say no! I say never! And this day, on this battlefield, we stake a claim to a future of our own making! This day, we help those monsters destroy themselves, and claim this world for our own! This day, we declare war against the Empire and the Kingdom!"
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Jul 4, 2022 16:58
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Blaziken386 posted:Does anyone know if the Arval plot twist chapters are identical between routes or not? Because if they are identical [spoiler]then i'll be slightly disappointed. I was hoping for like. Anything else?? Maybe more of a Sothis presence because I recruited Byleth?? The big "twist" being "HAHA, SURPRISE, I WAS A SLITHERER ALL ALONG, AND I WANT TO KILL SOTHIS" is like. You know that from chapter one. Thats incredibly obvious. Thats not a twist????? At the very least I was hoping that Arval would've been revealed to be Zahras. But no theyre just another Agarthan who went for the AI-backup form of immortality instead of whatever the gently caress Solon and Tomas (and Kronya, actually, we never got to kill her this time around) are doing. And what is the "cycle of the world" they mentioned?? I was really hoping the cycle of the world would be Byleth doing literal time travel, but it looks like this isn't the case.
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Jul 4, 2022 17:24
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Cloacamazing! posted:I was really hoping the cycle of the world would be Byleth doing literal time travel, but it looks like this isn't the case. Yeah that fan theory went out the window almost instantly, Byleth wasn't trying to create a golden ending, they were just hanging out with Jeralt in the wilderness.
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Jul 4, 2022 17:29
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Hellioning posted:I mean, consistency with Three Houses I guess? I might be wrong but I think they're talking about Three Houses there, Three Hopes's Scarlet Blaze route seems much more fleshed out and equal to the other routes (I think?). It's kind of fun that one lesson seemingly learned between games was honestly nobody cares about Church Route, give the people more Edelgard Was Right route.
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Jul 4, 2022 17:34
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:Oh huh, that is odd. That does explain why the betrayal is so slipshod and you punk him easily; it wasn't his plan all along. It is a pretty fun twist, though. You get a couple tactics to use Leicester back-up, and once his double cross is revealed, they get swapped for ones that take advantage of knowing about them beforehand, and you can just press the Hubert button to delete his fusillades or turn half his ambush troop into triple agent allies. That is hilarious. Hubert owns so loving much, I almost wish I saw that. And yeah that speech was missing from the route I was on. In Zahras Claude and Edelgard express their anxiety over the pact and whether it will work in the future, but at least Edelgard says that she hopes for it to be a permanent alliance and will work to see it so.
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Jul 4, 2022 18:27
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:Yeah, but most RPG plots are reactive, where the protagonist is spurred into action by the villain, or some supernatural event, or even just a guide showing up and pointing them on the way. Edelgard and Claude are active in a way that is not typical for RPG protagonists, and definitely not for Fire Emblem lords, and even Dimitri is wholly driven by his past trauma. They start out as fully-fledged characters with drives and ambitions shaped by their pasts. I was talking about Three Hopes, which is why I mentioned Shez. I think if Shez was just a regular mercenary, it would also be a lot better. But the one we got is really just a waste of time whose story doesn't really pay off with anything interesting. You're right that it wouldn't work in Three Houses (Byleth has their own issues but being a shaggy dog isn't one of them), but Three Hopes is definitely assuming you've played that game and know all the Flame Emperor, Tragedy of Duscur backstory stuff.
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Jul 4, 2022 18:31
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Hellioning posted:I mean, consistency with Three Houses I guess? i am talking about three houses
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Jul 4, 2022 18:37
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Defiance Industries posted:I was talking about Three Hopes, which is why I mentioned Shez. I think if Shez was just a regular mercenary, it would also be a lot better. But the one we got is really just a waste of time whose story doesn't really pay off with anything interesting. You're right that it wouldn't work in Three Houses (Byleth has their own issues but being a shaggy dog isn't one of them), but Three Hopes is definitely assuming you've played that game and know all the Flame Emperor, Tragedy of Duscur backstory stuff.
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Jul 4, 2022 19:21
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Does it seem like all the different routes are deliberately leaving things open for a future DLC? They essentially all end with the three main factions still intact and the three main leaders still alive, albeit sometimes in pretty varied conditions. The alliances differ, but they're all in a range of tension and trust. You could plausibly do a post-game that introduces a new villain or new wrinkle to events in Fodlan, and no matter what route you're starting from the differences could be hand-waived a little. The Empire's still around, regardless of whether it's ascendant or in decline.
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Jul 4, 2022 19:23
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Amppelix posted:shez is cool and the game would be less interesting without their personality around to bounce off the other characters, who cares about anything else Yeah Shez is really good even if the Arval stuff ends up feeling kinda rushed and unfulfilling plot-wise. Dolash posted:Does it seem like all the different routes are deliberately leaving things open for a future DLC? They essentially all end with the three main factions still intact and the three main leaders still alive, albeit sometimes in pretty varied conditions. The alliances differ, but they're all in a range of tension and trust. I think there's way too many differences plotwise to handwave them all together for a universal story continuation DLC. Not just in terms of where each of the lords is at and the state of the war/nations of Fodlan, but also simply who is and is not alive. A lot of characters unavoidably die and who those are changes from route to route.
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Jul 4, 2022 19:51
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regardless of how worthwhile to the plot shez is, their supports are great and having an actual back and forth conversation is pretty much 100% why
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Jul 4, 2022 19:51
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Sydin posted:I think there's way too many differences plotwise to handwave them all together for a universal story continuation DLC. Not just in terms of where each of the lords is at and the state of the war/nations of Fodlan, but also simply who is and is not alive. A lot of characters unavoidably die and who those are changes from route to route. It'd be pretty hard to continue the main story itself, true - the war is in very different places, sometimes even depending on how things shook out with Arval and Byleth - but they might be close enough as a starting point for turning things in a new direction. Three Houses added Abyss and the Ashen Wolves in a route-neutral way (albeit in a special pre-timeskip side story), if the armies had to travel to a new country or deal with another country invading Fodlan, it'd probably work. I particularly think there might still be room to explore Shez, Arval, Sothis and Shambhala in a DLC. You can always get around the Slither bigwigs being dead with the way they talk about their "flesh" being spent - maybe they just clone up some new bodies. That way them and their nuke stockpile can continue to threaten the world until somebody takes down Shambhala directly. Epimenides seems to be some kind of AI creature, so they can always load another of them from backups too.
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Jul 4, 2022 20:25
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Eimi posted:Actually the way growths work has been found out. Each character has set stats they will earn at every level. Classes just add a at most 30% chance to get a bonus stat during that process. I don't think the current stat growth theory is actually correct. According to the data sheet Holy Knight doesn't have a SPD growth modifier but my Jeritza has gotten +2 SPD anyway.
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Jul 4, 2022 20:25
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On a side-note, put Leonie down for "most improved" this time around since her Jeralt-worship is a little more interesting when playing someone with a grudge against Jeralt instead of his kid. Her paralogue with Jeralt and Byleth actually did something fun with the premise and did a lot to characterize Byleth, you can more easily imagine what they were like growing up. Leonie and Shamir were also fun to get each character's perspective on what being a mercenary is like (Leonie admiring how dead inside Shamir's become and thinking she has a long way to go shows she's still terrible at choosing who to look up to). They didn't really change her character much, but at least the circumstances led to more interesting interactions.
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Jul 4, 2022 20:43
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The biggest problem with Arval is we don’t get any resolution to it. Hell Arval isn’t even the one who betrays you. Epicenter makes it clear they’re different people, he just shows up, says “lol time to die Arval sucks to be you.” And then dies himself while refusing to explain anything that’s going on to Shez. Shez doesn’t even get to say goodbye to their brain buddy or have a melodramatic “But what about our friendship? You broke my heart Fredo!” moment.
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Jul 4, 2022 21:14
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Kanos posted:This is assuming that Edelgard/Dimitri/Claude have to be your perspective character that you have perfect internal knowledge of, instead of the house as a whole. You could very easily have rotating perspectives, or have a less important member of the house be your initial representative. Fantasy stories have figured out many, many ways for one of the protagonist to have a hidden past or unclear motives that they're working towards that are revealed at a dramatic or pertinent juncture in the story without having to have an everyman blank slate outsider for the reader/viewer/player to project themselves onto and for other characters to exposit to - that's just the easiest and lowest effort way to write a story around. Yeah i agree, the best FE game has the story take place from the perspective of someone who, as far as they are aware, is entirely an outsider to the primary plot, and even in the end they basically are (ike, im talking about ike) So yeah, 3houses would be way better if the main character was Lorenz
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Jul 4, 2022 22:19
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mabels big day posted:Yeah i agree, the best FE game has the story take place from the perspective of someone who, as far as they are aware, is entirely an outsider to the primary plot, and even in the end they basically are (ike, im talking about ike) But Ike absolutely isn't an outsider to the plot of Path of Radiance. 
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Jul 4, 2022 22:23
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galagazombie posted:The biggest problem with Arval is we don’t get any resolution to it. Hell Arval isn’t even the one who betrays you. Epicenter makes it clear they’re different people, he just shows up, says “lol time to die Arval sucks to be you.” And then dies himself while refusing to explain anything that’s going on to Shez. Shez doesn’t even get to say goodbye to their brain buddy or have a melodramatic “But what about our friendship? You broke my heart Fredo!” moment. Did they even die? I mean, gameplay and stoty integration can be a little loose sometimes, but you can keep manifesting their power afterward, even in cutscenes like when Shez helps Claude bring down the Immaculate One. I got the impression Arval might still be in there, dormant if nothing else.
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Jul 4, 2022 22:25
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mabels big day posted:Yeah i agree, the best FE game has the story take place from the perspective of someone who, as far as they are aware, is entirely an outsider to the primary plot, and even in the end they basically are (ike, im talking about ike) At least Lorenz gets to be stupidly broken in this game. Rondo of Roses is a fantastic unique action and it synergizes pretty well with just about any class, makes Wild Abandon even better, and his ability learnset otherwise has Big Game Hunter, Dual Onslaught, Offensive Tactics, Essence of Fire, and Proficient Witstrike (Innate Ability), all of which he can make good use of.
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Jul 4, 2022 22:35
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Shez is great because you can keep being such a poo poo to Lorenz
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Jul 5, 2022 02:57
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Mysticblade posted:Shez is great because you can keep being such a poo poo to Lorenz According to their B support Shez has actually been telling people around camp what a great guy Lorenz is, but nobody believes them.
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Jul 5, 2022 05:30
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SB spoilers: Yeah this is the best route. 
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Jul 5, 2022 06:14
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negging works
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Jul 5, 2022 06:20
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I’m on like chapter 7 or 8 and I still don’t have a invert phys/mag sword for my assassin lysithea. I’m gonna have to farm for it and that makes me sad. And I want more shez games. Less talk more ham.
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Jul 5, 2022 13:30
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Overbite posted:I’m on like chapter 7 or 8 and I still don’t have a invert phys/mag sword for my assassin lysithea. I’m gonna have to farm for it and that makes me sad. Mastering Mortal Savant gives her the ability that inverts every weapon to use Mag.
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Jul 5, 2022 13:39
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You can also just upgrade a steel sword to +10 and reforge it into a levin sword! Much easier and has Witstrike, which is better than Invert Str/Mag anyway.
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Jul 5, 2022 13:42
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That Arianrhord map in Edelgard Route is impossible to S Rank
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Jul 5, 2022 14:21
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Bernedetta's over-reaction to everything continues to entertain. Ferdinand is just trying to help... in his usual clueless way.
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Jul 5, 2022 15:01
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Hubert trying to be a thoughtful and attentive friend is the best. Dude's legit just trying to get someone coffee and a bagel but he is utterly incapable of not sounding like he's about to disappear someone behind a chemical shed.
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Jul 5, 2022 15:11
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Honest question but does it feel like perma death is a super lazy after thought in this game? More I play more strange it is to see INGRID DIED or whatever when literally *every single generic enemy* goes 'the war would be lost if *I* died!!' and handwaves everyone as just fleeing. Just doesn't feel like anyone should be dying 
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Jul 5, 2022 18:44
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maybe Ingrid was just a jobber
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Jul 5, 2022 18:52
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ThisIsACoolGuy posted:Honest question but does it feel like perma death is a super lazy after thought in this game? It does feel kind of out of place, especially given how say in the Kingdom route it goes super indepth into feudalism and a big thing would be everyone capturing all the nobles for the fancy ransom. So them fighting to the death feels kind of arbitrary, or in the case of Ingrid she is the kind of idiot who would fight to the death.
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Jul 5, 2022 19:03
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Having a gameplay toggle for permadeath definitely feels like a weird fit for a musou. I guess it's ultimately not too different from normal (in Fire Emblem and in this game, permadeath basically just means that you fail if anyone dies, and in musous failing the mission if any of your player avatars die is also pretty normal). The only real outlier would be continuing on after one of your units dies, which, does it even get acknowledged outside of gameplay? I assumed they just do the normal Fire Emblem thing and "retreat" so they can still show up in dialogue scenes. People dying in the story (because you didn't recruit them or because it's just how the plot goes) feels fine, although it does seem weird to combine that with giving every random grunt a voiceline about retreating.
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Jul 5, 2022 19:08
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I think I'm near the end of Golden Wildfire (chapter 13 I think) and honestly this game has too many side battles. It gets to the point where a chapter begins and I see how many side battles there are and I just groan. I'm probably going to just beeline straight for the end battle (and maybe do paralogues) from here.
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Jul 5, 2022 19:16
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ThisIsACoolGuy posted:Honest question but does it feel like perma death is a super lazy after thought in this game? Just like how three houses was written so that no matter what side you picked it was correct and objectively right, and everyone else was 100% wrong, in three hopes everyone but you knows how to teleport.
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Jul 5, 2022 19:28
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