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Was it ever said if Annatar was supposed to be a man? Or a Numenorian? Or elf?
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Sep 2, 2022 23:51
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grobbo posted:The Stranger as Sauron makes zero sense to me. The descent-as-meteor works in broad terms, like Gandalf being ‘sent back’, as an allegory for an angel coming down from heaven; but the show would instantly collapse under the bonkers logic of trying to explain how or why the dark lord stopped gathering his strength in the north and decided the best way to corrupt the kingdoms of man would be to load himself into a magical catapult and land in a fiery confused mess deep in the wilderness. Yeah the meteor who knows. I'm guessing it's just a retcon of what happened to Sauron after the First Age. For meteor man I'm going off a lot of fire/forge related imagery. Sauron was the top Maia under Aule the forge/crafting god the Dwarves love so much. Then it kept cutting back and forth between Elrond trying to get help making a forge mumbling poo poo about "star fire" and the dude (maybe) that literally worked for the forge god shooting out of the stars on fire.
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Sep 2, 2022 23:52
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Data Graham posted:and Celebrimbor's whole thing about being super-clear and specific about the forge he wants to build but he has no idea what to build with it? C'mooon. What kind of weird fuckin engineer is that. My Dad pointed out that it’s possible Celebrimbor has already met Annatar, and he’s convinced him they need this forge for the Rings And we as the audience just haven’t seen Annatar yet
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Sep 2, 2022 23:54
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Remember that Celebrimbor also says there's an arbitrary deadline for when this great new forge must be built, with no explanation for it. I bet we're gonna learn that deadline is when his good buddy Annatar is returning from some unknown errand (like maybe unleashing a bunch of tunneling orcs to take over Mordor so that he can set up his parallel forge in mount doom, perhaps?)
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Sep 2, 2022 23:58
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Ooh oooh one thing that really impressed me: yeah there's a whole lot of CGI, but there's also some really good practical effects. The orc in the house for example. That's a guy in armor, right? And the way he moves is super wild and unnerving, like a berserker or a zombie. That stuff was all extremely well done, whether CGI or not. I feel like this world just crawling with giant fell beasts—sea-worms, gryphons, ice trolls, wargs, all manner of strange creatures—seems a bit out of step with the rather more naturalistic and mundane world depicted in the books where there's only a few such named creatures; but then the books have all kinds of crazy one-off poo poo like the Watcher in the Water and the were-worms and all that, so maybe this is just a matter of my personal impressions being different from other people's for unknown reasons. I guess I just feel like Middle-earth isn't about fantastical creatures as much as the show wants me to think it is.
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Sep 2, 2022 23:59
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MrMojok posted:Was it ever said if Annatar was supposed to be a man? Or a Numenorian? Or elf? I believe he took an "angelic form" and claimed to be sent by the Valar to help. So he perhaps appeared as elf or man or whatever but everyone seemed to know he was a Maia of some variety. One of the timeline compression issues is going to be that Sauron took a few forms, Annatar with the elves, some rando priest with the Numenorians, maybe others. So who knows if they'll spin some of those out as different characters so that Sauron isn't changing form constantly.
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Sep 3, 2022 00:00
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The Ainur took the shape of Elves because Elves were the first beings given form and the Ainur loved their shape. So Anna target taking an angelic form would be him appearing Elvish.
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Sep 3, 2022 00:03
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Speaking of CGI monsters I initially felt like the sea-serpent was entirely gratuitous and unnecessary, but I've changed my mind even on that. The elves and Numenoreans are exceptional in their seafaring abilities, and we're likely to see a lot of both, but the seas of Arda are absolutely not safe to travel according to Tolkien. If we don't see regular people getting brutally bodied at sea, we'd be at risk of getting a far-too-modern view of the ease and safety of sea travel.
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Sep 3, 2022 00:04
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appropriatemetaphor posted:Yeah the meteor who knows. I'm guessing it's just a retcon of what happened to Sauron after the First Age. I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. Gandalf also (later) wears Narya, the ring of fire
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Sep 3, 2022 00:10
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kaworu posted:Plus we know that Sauron taking on the guise of someone who is either good or indeterminately good/evil is going to be of major importance; isn’t that how he fools Celebrimbor, by pretending to be “The Lord of Gifts” or something? Pretty awesome that Sauron dupes everyone by making them think he's Santa Clause.
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Sep 3, 2022 00:11
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Corbeau posted:Remember that Celebrimbor also says there's an arbitrary deadline for when this great new forge must be built, with no explanation for it. I bet we're gonna learn that deadline is when his good buddy Annatar is returning from some unknown errand (like maybe unleashing a bunch of tunneling orcs to take over Mordor so that he can set up his parallel forge in mount doom, perhaps?) Looking forward to Annatar just rolling up like Thomas Jefferson at the start of Act 2 of Hamilton going "So what did I miss?"... only a tiny bit more evil than Jefferson was 
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Sep 3, 2022 00:11
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First episode was great, but things started to slowly slip in episode two. I hope it's not a trend. The Southlands scenes were the weakest by far. Celebrimbor was surprisingly cool with being turned away after seemingly long trip to the mountains.
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Sep 3, 2022 00:12
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I thought Elrond muttering “my friend” under his breath would make the door fly open Dwarves all standing around gape-mouthed and in the middle of mooning him
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Sep 3, 2022 00:22
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Data Graham posted:I thought Elrond muttering “my friend” under his breath would make the door fly open I thought the same and then I realized, "wait, Durin's only still a prince right now. He hasn't built the Friend Door yet!  "
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Sep 3, 2022 00:25
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I noticed how these first episodes depict elves going to the Grey Havens, what it is, and kinda what goes on there. Recall that Return of the King ended with people going there, and now we're beginning this by Galadriel being sent there and jumping off and going back.
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Sep 3, 2022 00:50
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skooma512 posted:I noticed how these first episodes depict elves going to the Grey Havens, what it is, and kinda what goes on there. Recall that Return of the King ended with people going there, and now we're beginning this by Galadriel being sent there and jumping off and going back. Small detail but they're not going to the Grey Havens, the Grey Havens is a port in Middle-Earth from which Frodo, etc. departed to the Undying Lands (Valinor in the show). I am not sure if they're even departing from the Grey Havens in the show, but I might have missed that.
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Sep 3, 2022 01:00
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Is there a reason why Galadriel couldn't just have sailed back from Valinor, but chose to swim instead? Or was it merely out of principle?
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Sep 3, 2022 01:03
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BoldFace posted:Is there a reason why Galadriel couldn't just have sailed back from Valinor, but chose to swim instead? Or was it merely out of principle? That particular sequence is one I can't defend.
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Sep 3, 2022 01:10
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BoldFace posted:Is there a reason why Galadriel couldn't just have sailed back from Valinor, but chose to swim instead? Or was it merely out of principle? "Going to Valinor" in Tolkein stories has always been an analog for death. There is no coming back from Valinor. If she passed through the rain curtain, that's it, she's gone. The boat wasn't stopping because everyone else on it was more than happy to go to heaven, but she had other plans. She had basically zero options but to jump and make a swim for it.
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Sep 3, 2022 01:17
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Something I noticed that made me think that Meteor Man might be Sauron was that early in episode one Galadriel makes a point of mentioning that in the presence of so great an evil fire gives no warmth, and at the start of episode two Nori falls into the flaming meteor pit and notes that the fire isn’t hot.
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Sep 3, 2022 01:27
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I actually enjoyed the southlands poo poo even though the elf falling for a human is kinda tired as a trope by now. Mostly because Bronwyn is bangin
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Sep 3, 2022 01:34
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nine-gear crow posted:"Going to Valinor" in Tolkien stories has always been an analog for death. There is no coming back from Valinor. If she passed through the rain curtain, that's it, she's gone. The boat wasn't stopping because everyone else on it was more than happy to go to heaven, but she had other plans. as everyone has said its a bit clunky, but if the story after she gets to Numenor is good, than it does not really matter. If that story sucks, than well, we got owned. If its decent, than the writing team had a tough job getting her to Numenor fast in terms of episodes, since how else do you do it? Have some messenger ask her to show up? Do you have her bail on the ship earlier and then have her wander the coast like Maglor? The monster destroying the ship would make nerds like us even more angry, etc etc. I can see how "she bails and gets rescued by shipwrecked survivors" was the end result.
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Sep 3, 2022 01:42
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I quite like the mythic quality of Galadriel swimming back across an ocean. These are supposed to be wise and fell and superhuman people; they should be doing things like that. It’s almost undercut by her getting on the raft but overall it works; she wants the raft because it’s more comfortable but she doesn’t actually need the raft.
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Sep 3, 2022 01:46
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She's like "BIND YOURSELF TO ME" like she has superhuman strength and can stand stalwart against the mast like an immovable monolith, and if only he gives up his pride he can save himself, but then *crash* and lol she's gone
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Sep 3, 2022 01:48
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Hexel posted:I actually enjoyed the southlands poo poo even though the elf falling for a human is kinda tired as a trope by now. I thought this was almost trying too hard, like here's all these homely peasant people and here's this super attractive lady with her cleavage on display and the words "Important Character" written on her forehead. It reminded me of Hot Dwarf from the Hobbit movies. It woulda pissed me off if I got cast as one of the other dwarfs and had to sit through multiple hours of makeup every day until I was unrecognizable and covered in itchy prosthetics, and then what the gently caress, they cast some good looking guy who just gets to walk right on stage looking like himself? Without any silly rubber ears or a goofy nose or anything? And gets to flirt with Evangeline Lilly all day? gently caress that guy.
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Sep 3, 2022 01:49
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thrawn527 posted:Alright, then it's totally possible that stranger man is Annatar. I hadn't considered that. Celebrimbor could have a goal in mind that he just hasn't mentioned, or he could have none, since they haven't mentioned one at all. Annatar being among Hobbits is a bit of a weird way to play him. Like, one of the defining features of his character is that he spares no thought for the little people. In every meaning of the phrase.
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Sep 3, 2022 01:54
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Honestly, I am shocked after watching the first 2 episodes that people are trying to pretend that this was egregiously bad or anything of the sort. It has hit the tone of the Jackson LOTR trilogy nicely and is setting up multiple intriguing storylines. Yeah, the pacing is slower so far, its a tv show not a loving movie. People who are complaining about Galadrial's combat prowess and calling her a Mary Sue? Its loving Galadrial, shes not just some random nobody, she is one of the most notable elves in the series. Its actually okay that a character like that is clearly more capable than the others. Not to mention that in the Hobbit trilogy, Legolas was shown as being capable of running up falling bricks like stairs. If elves are capable of such feats in this world, then what Galadrial has been shown to do is childs play compared to that. Lets be real here, there are 2 issues here at play. Firstly, lots of people (hell, you might include me in this catagory) were primed for this to be bad from the beginning, and are not judging the show fairly. Second, there are some people who are basically outing themselves as either racist or sexist and are objecting to the presence of any characters who might be considered diverse or progressive. Its honestly pathetic, and its really helping show that there is an embarassingly large amount of people in the world right now who have got incredibly comfortable with being overt about their bigotry.
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Sep 3, 2022 01:54
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nine-gear crow posted:"Going to Valinor" in Tolkein stories has always been an analog for death. There is no coming back from Valinor. If she passed through the rain curtain, that's it, she's gone. The boat wasn't stopping because everyone else on it was more than happy to go to heaven, but she had other plans. Not quite. It's the beginning of the Second Age that the show takes place in, a time when Valinor was still a physical place in the world. However, after the attack by Morgoth and Ungoliant the Valar fortified the place, so that it became way harder to get in or out. It was only after the fall of Numenor that Valinor could no longer be reached by normal means (unless you were an elf, or punched a ticket like Frodo and Bilbo) and had to take the "straight road". Also none of the elves think of Valinor as an analogy for death, quite on the contrary (it was also the idea of eternal life why Ar-Pharazôn desired the place so much). It's a place of happiness and an elf paradise, where they can live in peace after thousands of years in Middle Earth and find healing in body and soul. The reason why none come back is because they usually go there when they are tired of ME and it's not surprising that after centuries of war against Morgoth a lot of them were sick of ME. Hammerstein fucked around with this message at 03:12 on Sep 3, 2022 |
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Sep 3, 2022 01:55
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Beefeater1980 posted:I quite like the mythic quality of Galadriel swimming back across an ocean. These are supposed to be wise and fell and superhuman people; they should be doing things like that. Yeah this is what I was thinking when I saw it. Also I appreciated seeing a ship heading for Valinor, and all the elves breaking out singing was very tolkien lol.
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Sep 3, 2022 02:00
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Beefeater1980 posted:I quite like the mythic quality of Galadriel swimming back across an ocean. These are supposed to be wise and fell and superhuman people; they should be doing things like that. Yeah it cracks me up that the same people bitching that “The Sundering Sea is the size of the Atlantic Ocean! How could she swim it?!” are also complaining that there’s not a bunch of the epic poo poo from the Silmarillion that is even more ridiculous than that.
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Sep 3, 2022 02:01
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IMDB seems to have removed all written reviews for this show that had 5 or lower rating. Kind of a sketchy decision since Amazon owns IMDB.
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Sep 3, 2022 02:05
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Let's just assume that Ulmo and Ossë used the storm to throw Galadriel's raft towards Numenor.
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Sep 3, 2022 02:08
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BoldFace posted:IMDB seems to have removed all written reviews for this show that had 5 or lower rating. Kind of a sketchy decision since Amazon owns IMDB. Perhaps, but lets be fair, the majority of those reviews are not worth a second of anyone's time. Review bombing is stupid and honestly I dont give a single gently caress about a company taking steps to make the practice pointless.
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Sep 3, 2022 02:08
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rkd_ posted:Small detail but they're not going to the Grey Havens, the Grey Havens is a port in Middle-Earth from which Frodo, etc. departed to the Undying Lands (Valinor in the show). I am not sure if they're even departing from the Grey Havens in the show, but I might have missed that. You're right my bad.
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Sep 3, 2022 02:28
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Watched the first episode. I actually liked it! Did not expect I would, but I feel like this captures the tone of Tolkien's works fairly well. Visually it looked better than I expected, and the acting was pretty solid for the most part. Interested to see where it goes.
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Sep 3, 2022 02:32
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One thing I liked about the first episode was how slowly it moved. A lot of fantasy rushes to get from point A to point B and the slow build felt more in line with how Tolkien does things
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Sep 3, 2022 02:35
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Beefeater1980 posted:I quite like the mythic quality of Galadriel swimming back across an ocean. These are supposed to be wise and fell and superhuman people; they should be doing things like that. I just could somehow never get down with this idea. If elves can take down an oliphant single-handedly and also swim hundreds of miles through the open ocean, then it seems like a platoon-size unit of elves (~40) could probably wreck a battalion-size unit of orcs (~900) Maybe it’s meant to be so. It’s been a long, long time since I read the Sil and when I did I was too young to understand a lot of it and also it bored me at the time. I do remember there’s two stories of elf-lords killing balrogs though, and those guys are terrifying army-destroyers themselves, so maybe I should rethink my position here.
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Sep 3, 2022 02:45
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I just hope that the whole Galadriel plot leads to something better in the coming episodes. Galadriel is Noldor royalty and it's mentioned in the source material that she had the desire to rule her own realm. After the first age she had her own fiefdom in Gil-galads realm and would be busy ruling instead of chasing after ghosts, especially because there were elves far better suited for such tasks. During the First Age elvenkind had heroes like Beleg or Mablung (who both died during the FA) and despite being marvellously skilled they were only the retainers of far greater lords. Someone of Galadriel's status would have at least a few followers with similar skills. Also the Men of Numenor were still on friendly terms with the elves around that time and they were known to be great mariners. If the plot really requires her to be in Numenor for whatever reason, there would have been better ways than dumping her into the vastness of the Sundering Seas, while twisting her character into something that she never was in the books.
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Sep 3, 2022 02:46
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FiftySeven posted:Honestly, I am shocked after watching the first 2 episodes that people are trying to pretend that this was egregiously bad or anything of the sort. It has hit the tone of the Jackson LOTR trilogy nicely and is setting up multiple intriguing storylines. Yeah, the pacing is slower so far, its a tv show not a loving movie. If your show has hasn't hooked me within the first 2 episodes, then sorry, you failed. I just don't buy the excuse that this is a TV show and that "setup needed to happen" in a post-Game of Thrones world. Just look at the first two episodes of Game of Thrones(or even House of the Dragon) and all the many characters and plot lines it beautifully sets up in that with forward momentum. ROP is just a stilted and meandering slog, albeit an expensive pretty one. Could things turn around later? Maybe, but I hate that poo poo in a world with so much media to choose from that it makes me feel like I'm being conned and wasting my time. And I understand theres been a looot of chuds rooting for this to fail for not so subtle reasons, but I'm not gonna be dishonest with myself and give it a pass because of that... especially a Tolkien adaptation.
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Sep 3, 2022 02:52
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A true Tolkien adaptation though would take 3 seasons to finally get going. So this show is right on track to be the most faithful adaptation yet.
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Sep 3, 2022 02:55
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