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OwlFancier posted:I don't think this is true, it's true if you come out and go "muhahaha I am going to do this thing gently caress you idiots" like truss is doing, but the way the erosion of the NHS has gone under both the tories and labour has been to simply privatise it by parts, to make it more expensive to run and funnel money out of it to private interests, which eventually will produce a system that cannot function and give space for some ghoul to say "well we need to knock it all down and replace it with something else" but which does not see significant electoral backlash before that point. Everything labour are saying suggests they are entirely on board with continuing that plan. And the cost of doing that is a service that is worse funded and still means people dying when they don't have to, even before someone decides to destroy it entirely. This. A politician from any party coming out and saying "if elected, healthcare will stop being free, and you'll have to get European style [Labour] or US-style [Tories] health insurance" is still electoral suicide. They know this, so it's a drip drip instead. Private providers with an NHS logo (with the added bonus of different employers = less worker solidarity). The big one would be a charge for GP visits. Just a little one, because the NHS needs money you see. For the rest, I don't think public blowback is a real factor either. It doesn't matter if they're going moustache-twirlingly over the top, so they can pull back in response to the outrage and do what they wanted all along, or they're just idiots, the end result is the same. They don't actually stop, listen and reconsider - they just say some words, and then carry on what they were doing before but slower and quieter.
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Oct 13, 2022 19:59
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And critically, it doesn't matter if they do it because they want to introduce a US style insurance system, or because they very sincerely believe that privatization of services with public funding is the most expedient or even best way to improve them. Whyever they do it the effect is the same, to make the NHS worse in the long run, because the private sector can not, and has not, ever improved a service in the long run, it can't, it is structurally incapable of doing it because they are incentivized to cut service provision to the bone and extract as much value from the institution as possible, that is exactly what you have seen with rail and it is exactly what you will see with the NHS.
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Oct 13, 2022 20:02
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OwlFancier posted:I don't think this is true, it's true if you come out and go "muhahaha I am going to do this thing gently caress you idiots" like truss is doing, but the way the erosion of the NHS has gone under both the tories and labour has been to simply privatise it by parts, to make it more expensive to run and funnel money out of it to private interests, which eventually will produce a system that cannot function and give space for some ghoul to say "well we need to knock it all down and replace it with something else" but which does not see significant electoral backlash before that point. Everything labour are saying suggests they are entirely on board with continuing that plan. And the cost of doing that is a service that is worse funded and still means people dying when they don't have to, even before someone decides to destroy it entirely. Labour has made a key point of publically attacking the Conservatives for the state of the NHS right now, including over privatisation. If they were to get into power and the NHS doesn't improve, it's their asses on the line. If theres at least one thing Starmer can be counted on, it's being an odious little wretch who'll abandon positions if it means he can stay in power and unlike the current Tory leadership he isn't a complete lunatic. Furthermore, privatisation of the NHS is deeply, deeply unpopular in both parties and the media will be salivating at the chance to eviscerate Labour over anything. If it's a choice between "Definitely will get worse" or "Might get worse or stay bad", one option is still better. Tarnop posted:The shadow health secretary is giving pro-privatisation interviews and they're polling 20 points ahead. Which polls are we talking about here? Nobody is currently paying attention to that because of the dumpster fire that is our country and the world right now. I lurk this thread constantly and it's the first I've heard of it. Labour is 20 points ahead because they're in opposition to the Leopards Eating Your Face party. When they get into power they'll suddenly be under much more scrutiny.
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Oct 13, 2022 20:06
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Nephthys posted:Labour has made a key point of publically attacking the Conservatives for the state of the NHS right now, including over privatisation. If they were to get into power and the NHS doesn't improve, it's their asses on the line. If theres at least one thing Starmer can be counted on, it's being an odious little wretch who'll abandon positions if it means he can stay in power and unlike the current Tory leadership he isn't a complete lunatic. Furthermore, privatisation of the NHS is deeply, deeply unpopular in both parties and the media will be salivating at the chance to eviscerate Labour over anything. "Oh whoops we hosed the NHS. What'cha gonna do about it, vote Tory?"
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Oct 13, 2022 20:09
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Also, we've reached the stage of state collapse where catastrophic bollocks like Kwarteng's budget is a natural consequence of the system failing and the sharks circling. People like Starmer and Reeves may not blow up the country themselves (probably - they're trying to do Blairism without a finance boom just like Truss and Kwarteng are going for Thatcherism without an oil boom, and God alone knows how that kind of bizarre economic experiment is going to work out), but they absolutely cannot be trusted to prevent it when some rich sociopath donating to the party does it for them. They've made it clear where their loyalties lie, and they're with the riot police, not the public.
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Oct 13, 2022 20:09
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Nephthys posted:Labour has made a key point of publically attacking the Conservatives for the state of the NHS right now, including over privatisation. If they were to get into power and the NHS doesn't improve, it's their asses on the line. If theres at least one thing Starmer can be counted on, it's being an odious little wretch who'll abandon positions if it means he can stay in power and unlike the current Tory leadership he isn't a complete lunatic. Furthermore, privatisation of the NHS is deeply, deeply unpopular in both parties and the media will be salivating at the chance to eviscerate Labour over anything. So your negotiating tactic is to give the other party everything they're asking for and then, once they have it, ask for concessions? And Rarity said it first and better, but it deserves re-stating. Under FPTP, if you don't like what Labour are doing in government, who are the "anyone but the Tories" voters going to vote for? Nephthys posted:Nobody is currently paying attention to that because of the dumpster fire that is our country and the world right now. I lurk this thread constantly and it's the first I've heard of it. Labour is 20 points ahead because they're in opposition to the Leopards Eating Your Face party. When they get into power they'll suddenly be under much more scrutiny. The tweet was linked in this thread, same place I get all my twitter bookmarks
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Oct 13, 2022 20:18
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OwlFancier posted:And critically, it doesn't matter if they do it because they want to introduce a US style insurance system, or because they very sincerely believe that privatization of services with public funding is the most expedient or even best way to improve them. Whyever they do it the effect is the same, to make the NHS worse in the long run, because the private sector can not, and has not, ever improved a service in the long run, it can't, it is structurally incapable of doing it because they are incentivized to cut service provision to the bone and extract as much value from the institution as possible, that is exactly what you have seen with rail and it is exactly what you will see with the NHS. Speaking of rail, I saw this quote the other day and thought of this thread...we don't talk about trains enough anymore (context: the Dutch rail system is effectively nationalised, with a couple of minor routes run by random companies - presumably as a sop to the EU) quote:But his most immediate challenge will be to deal with the increasing pressure to allow other rail companies to run trains on the already crowded Dutch network.
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Oct 13, 2022 20:22
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Nephthys posted:Labour has made a key point of publically attacking the Conservatives for the state of the NHS right now, including over privatisation. If they were to get into power and the NHS doesn't improve, it's their asses on the line. If theres at least one thing Starmer can be counted on, it's being an odious little wretch who'll abandon positions if it means he can stay in power and unlike the current Tory leadership he isn't a complete lunatic. Furthermore, privatisation of the NHS is deeply, deeply unpopular in both parties and the media will be salivating at the chance to eviscerate Labour over anything. The problem with this line of thinking is that it seems to have no explanation for how bad things actually happen? If politicians were scared of doing bad things because people wouldn't like them then how do they happen exactly? Did it stop blair pushing PFIs and cause him to adopt rail renationalization despite the fact that both of those are bad?
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Oct 13, 2022 20:24
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OwlFancier posted:The problem with this line of thinking is that it seems to have no explanation for how bad things actually happen? If politicians were scared of doing bad things because people wouldn't like them then how do they happen exactly? Did it stop blair pushing PFIs and cause him to adopt rail renationalization despite the fact that both of those are bad? Blair is one of the most despised politicians in modern UK history, he had to quit halfway through because he was so unpopular and his time in office led to a landmark loss for his party that's kept them out of power for 12 years, in large part because of their association with him. So I guess it should have, yeah.
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Oct 13, 2022 20:36
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Nephthys posted:Blair is one of the most despised politicians in modern UK history, he had to quit halfway through because he was so unpopular and his time in office led to a landmark loss for his party that's kept them out of power for 12 years, in large part because of their association with him. And the current Labour leadership worship the ground he walks on, while expressing open contempt for their entire voting bloc. Why are you so convinced that they're not going to go for a mad ideological suicide-bid as soon as they get in?
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Oct 13, 2022 20:39
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Nephthys posted:Blair is one of the most despised politicians in modern UK history, he had to quit halfway through because he was so unpopular and his time in office led to a landmark loss for his party that's kept them out of power for 12 years, in large part because of their association with him. And yet it did not. And yet the people in charge of labour now are openly citing him as an inspiration, his former DPP is now running the labour party, and he himself is filthy rich and cutting promos for the worst people on earth despite being responsible for the deaths of incalculable numbers of people with his domestic and foreign policy. To say that it should have in the face of the fact that it clearly did not, and did not hurt him personally that he did not, and has not in any way impeded the progress of his political project and its control over the party in those twelve years except for the brief window of corbyn's tenure which, if starmer wins a historic victory on the back of a murderous tory government his faction helped to put in power, is going to be even further applied as an indictment of anything other than hardcore neoliberalism. To say that it should have been different is completely nonsensical.
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Oct 13, 2022 20:47
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sebzilla posted:You can bookmark tweets (which is how I found this at short notice) Share please and thanks for the twitter feature headsup
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Oct 13, 2022 20:57
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notaspy posted:Share please and thanks for the twitter feature headsup sebzilla posted:https://twitter.com/josephattard02/status/1542110084356100097?t=WeBtc2qYVP2G1rwzgYWw0g&s=19
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Oct 13, 2022 21:01
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Interestingly, we've just had yet another example of the privatisation of NHS services going badly. Babylon GP at Hand are pulling out of Birmingham because it turns out that running an effective GP business when demand is really loving high... is really loving expensive. Not the only NHS contract they're ditching, either. Sucks for the 5000 patients who need a new GP practice, at the very least.
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Oct 13, 2022 21:14
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As already mentioned, Blairite Labour introduced the work capability assessments for the sick and disabled, and were the ones who initially hired ATOS to start the culling. Much of what we call Universal Credit is based on blueprints drawn up during the Labour years. The whole punishment and sanction regime was their idea too. The Tories probably implemented it a lot quicker than Labour might have, but both parties had very similar end goals, and they aren't good for people like me. Blairite Labour also ignored science and their own advisors to make cannabis a class B substance, and ignored any calls for medicinal cannabis to be available. I actively started lobbying from 2006, and Labour refused any dialogue full stop. My own MP (the helicoptered in Linda Gilroy) refused to discuss the issue. She refused to meet with me, take a telephone call from me, or answer any emails from me about the issue. My Tory MP after 2010 actually invited me into his home every month for an hour to discuss the issue (though I found out I was being used as a pawn for the VCs). The Tories saw the £££ potential of the medi market, accepted the bribes, and now I'm no longer at risk of being in a crown court dock again, trying to defend why I want to treat my debilitating illness with cannabis. Blairite Labour was also a war-mongering international law breaking war-criminal regime that shat on national and international decorum with the same arrogance as our successive Tory governments have since. Maybe it's an age thing? I'm 50, so I remember the Blair years all to well. I voted for him in 97, and I feel as cheated in that vote as I do for the 2010 vote when I stupidly believed in Nick. Starmer's Labour government is going to be no different to Blair's Labour government, which won't be that different to what we have now for people like me, so I'm not going to bother voting next election. I live in what would be one of the last Tory safe seats, so my vote is worth dogshit in any case. If Mel Stride is at risk of losing his seat, then the rest of the country would have already fallen for the Tories. I wouldn't even Starmer's Labour my dogshit stained vote
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Oct 13, 2022 21:19
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I hope we strike more and Labour puts out an even worse budget under Keith so we can replace him within a month too.
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Oct 13, 2022 21:19
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Diet Crack posted:I hope we strike more and Labour puts out an even worse budget under Keith so we can replace him within a month too. One of the strongest 'don't vote for Labour' arguments is that a Labour victory will mean most union bureaucracies and a shitload of union members will suddenly be doing their best to clamp down on any labour militancy whatsoever as they need to protect the government from the bad press and 'give them a chance' and all that nonsense.
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Oct 13, 2022 21:23
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Imagine being so bad at your job that someone like George Osborne can shitpost about you? https://twitter.com/George_Osborne/status/1580553190881497088
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Oct 13, 2022 21:25
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Darth Walrus posted:And the current Labour leadership worship the ground he walks on, while expressing open contempt for their entire voting bloc. Why are you so convinced that they're not going to go for a mad ideological suicide-bid as soon as they get in? Like I said, its a choice between "Definitely worse" and "Maybe worse or as bad or maybe better". If they do destroy the NHS then it was going to be destroyed anyway by the Tories. It's obviously the better option to try to avoid that, even if you personally think it's unlikely to survive. If the argument is "nothing matters, theres no hope so don't even try" then I'm sorry but I don't accept that. OwlFancier posted:And yet it did not. And yet the people in charge of labour now are openly citing him as an inspiration, his former DPP is now running the labour party, and he himself is filthy rich and cutting promos for the worst people on earth despite being responsible for the deaths of incalculable numbers of people with his domestic and foreign policy. I don't think taking 12+ years to regain power is the same as 'in no way impeded'. There very much were consequences for their lovely actions and as I said, if there's one thing these guys can be counted on, it's self-interest. Starmer won't do anything overtly malicious and stupid if he thinks it will lose him power and neither will any MP under him. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong but it's a choice between "NHS dies" and "NHS maybe dies?" which means one is clearly the better choice. Besides which, don't you think it would be worse for the Tories to have 12 years of utter misery and insanity completely validated by another election win? Of open criminality and corruption going unpunished? Don't you think that that would be far more damaging to the country than whatever the Blairites have planned? Do you seriously think that will lead to something better?
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Oct 13, 2022 21:26
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fuctifino posted:Blairite Labour also ignored science and their own advisors to make cannabis a class B substance ofc that's what happens when you twiddle around the edges of things instead of committing to proper reform.
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Oct 13, 2022 21:31
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Nephthys posted:I'm sorry but this is just pure defeatism. If politicians get enough blowback on a policy then they will U-turn on it. Truss is failing so spectacularly right now because she seems to be uniquely suicidal and is refusing to back down to pressure to the point that shitstain Bojo actually has a credible chance of walking back into No 10 this month. But most people in power loving love staying in power. If NHS privatisation means a Labour defeat at the polls there'll be pressure to back down on it. But to even get to that point we need the Tories out.
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Oct 13, 2022 21:41
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Nephthys posted:Like I said, its a choice between "Definitely worse" and "Maybe worse or as bad or maybe better". If they do destroy the NHS then it was going to be destroyed anyway by the Tories. It's obviously the better option to try to avoid that, even if you personally think it's unlikely to survive. If the argument is "nothing matters, theres no hope so don't even try" then I'm sorry but I don't accept that. "Labour are the better option since anything bad Labour do, the Tories would have done worse" is a handy rhetorical trick to hide behind since it's completely unfalsifiable. Since you said previously that, if Labour continues with their stated goal of NHS privatisation after winning an election, you would seek to make them u-turn on that policy by threatening to hurt them (five years later, after they've secured comfy consultancy jobs with pharma corps) at the ballot box, who will you vote for if they ignore you just like Blair did?
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Oct 13, 2022 21:49
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kingturnip posted:Interestingly, we've just had yet another example of the privatisation of NHS services going badly. it's definitely still unpopular enough that when my own local group of GP practices was taken over in full by a private body they just didn't tell anybody that they were doing this or transferring all the data to said company, including that of everyone who had previously written that they were not ok with their data being shared in this manner. When I checked their website to work out when the hell they did this they have a page solely dedicated to explaining that covid emergency powers meant they could assume consent even when it had been expressly denied, and were not required to disclose any of this. The thing is tho they did it, and when making phonecalls will still refer to themselves as the old clinic unless you directly ask them if they're a private company now, which is just a lovely demonstration that the public perception of a policy has no relation whatsoever to whether or not that policy will be implemented.
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Oct 13, 2022 21:54
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namesake posted:One of the strongest 'don't vote for Labour' arguments is that a Labour victory will mean most union bureaucracies and a shitload of union members will suddenly be doing their best to clamp down on any labour militancy whatsoever as they need to protect the government from the bad press and 'give them a chance' and all that nonsense. Erm, no? Most of the unions hate Labour and certainly don't seem like funding a General Election campaign. I really can't imagine Sharon Graham turning round to her members and saying "Now now, he might have shat all over us in the past, but I think Sir Keir Starmer is now a man of integrity".
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Oct 13, 2022 21:54
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kingturnip posted:Erm, no? You say this, but winning does strange things to people. I would strongly suspect you will see a number of formerly avowed leftists become very keen to suck up to labour government. Not all of them, and I couldn't tell you which ones specifically, but it certainly tends to happen.
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Oct 13, 2022 21:56
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I hope Sharon Graham releases her list of demands on day one and then just leaks pages of her Starmer blackmail file every day afterwards. No one will care and it will have no effect but it will be funny and that's the best we can hope for at this point.
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Oct 13, 2022 21:57
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kingturnip posted:Erm, no? unlike the UK, Unite actually has a working democratic structure. Unlike an MP, she actually has to consider that her actions may have consequences she doesn't like. There are huge parts of the beurocracy that would definitely rather be team players under a labour government, but they're mysteriously reluctant to openly criticise the woman who created a department dedicated to making 500 page "you will beg for mercy or death" dossiers. gmb and unison tho, that may actually be a concern, but it's not like they're doing much in the way of organised extraparliamentary politics.
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Oct 13, 2022 22:04
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https://twitter.com/NeilBarnsley/status/1580585651430658049 [edited to include great graphic in reply]
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Oct 13, 2022 22:19
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Failed Imagineer posted:Requesting a nonce report on both Bloc Party and The Stroks Russell from Bloc Party and a lot of fans.
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Oct 13, 2022 22:35
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Tarnop posted:"Labour are the better option since anything bad Labour do, the Tories would have done worse" is a handy rhetorical trick to hide behind since it's completely unfalsifiable. The Tories are literally in power and have been for 12 years. They're enacting terrible policies right now. It isn't a trick to say their policies are worse, we are seeing them happen right the gently caress now. Likewise "But maybe Labour will be even worse!" is an absurd argument based on fuckall. My area is Lib Dem or Tory, so I'm not even voting Labour in the first place. Regardless of what happens we can try to push Labour towards the left or reward any party for left wing policies. If Labour gets a large majority as they look like they will then try to chip away at it and move seats to candidates further to the left. The NHS isn't the only issue anyway. If after 5 years Labour is still the only viable semi-left party then I guess we hosed up and have to keep trying. If you have a better idea that isn't accelerationism or pointless doomposting then I'm genuinely open to hear it. Nephthys fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Oct 13, 2022 |
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Oct 13, 2022 22:39
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Given the current trajectory of right-wing smears against LGBTQ people probably best not make jokes against gay-fronted Bloc Party being potential nonces imo.
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Oct 13, 2022 22:40
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Tesseraction posted:Given the current trajectory of right-wing smears against LGBTQ people probably best not make jokes against gay-fronted Bloc Party being potential nonces imo. The guy I’m talking about is not gay. Edit: it’s pretty mad how rampant sex abuse was in the indie scene of the mid noughties. Being 14-16 at the time and pretty in to it, I know a lot of personal stories first hand. Can’t work out if the time has passed or if it will swing back and expose a lot of them when there’s an era revival later this decade. Mesopotamia fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Oct 13, 2022 |
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Oct 13, 2022 22:50
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bustin keaton posted:The guy I’m talking about is not gay. yeah I was more replying to the original imagineer thing is the guitarist a nonce and the band covering it up
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Oct 13, 2022 22:51
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Abstracting away from how to vote (or not vote) in the next GE, when and how does the next meaningful political realignment happen? This dance where the Tories and New Labour take turns as the party of government / the opposition for 10-20 year stretches won’t last forever, but I have a really difficult time imagining how we get out of this holding pattern. And if a truly harrowing few years of a global pandemic, war in Europe, and an unprecedented cost of living crisis don’t lead to it, what will?
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Oct 13, 2022 22:53
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Tarnop posted:I hope Sharon Graham releases her list of demands on day one and then just leaks pages of her Starmer blackmail file every day afterwards. No one will care and it will have no effect but it will be funny and that's the best we can hope for at this point. blackmails illegal m8 the individual stuff is just a list of addresses, hobbies, daily activities. places you might be able to find any given decision maker. Places they like being at. Places they don't want flyer campaigns covered in blatantly libelous statements. Places they don't want to be excluded from. Nobody ever gets threatened, ever, because that would be illegal. Nobody cares about the shittalking (honestly the gossip and rumours can do a lot of the legwork) but they're incredibly strict about never, ever threatening individuals and I got told off for making a joke about it. If they start writing down sensitive information about a DPP turned PM, I'm pretty sure that story ends with the leverage department in a series of padlocked suitcases, left outside the view in eastbourne.
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Oct 13, 2022 22:55
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Nephthys posted:Labour ... viable semi-left party 
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Oct 13, 2022 22:58
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Tesseraction posted:yeah I was more replying to the original imagineer thing is the guitarist a nonce and the band covering it up “Allegedly”
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Oct 13, 2022 22:58
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Halisnacks posted:Abstracting away from how to vote (or not vote) in the next GE, when and how does the next meaningful political realignment happen? This dance where the Tories and New Labour take turns as the party of government / the opposition for 10-20 year stretches won’t last forever, but I have a really difficult time imagining how we get out of this holding pattern. And if a truly harrowing few years of a global pandemic, war in Europe, and an unprecedented cost of living crisis don’t lead to it, what will? If you could predict that you would be essentially a prophet.
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Oct 13, 2022 22:59
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https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1580658752457707521
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Oct 13, 2022 23:03
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I’m going to vote for the least worst independent
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Oct 13, 2022 23:06
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