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Jaxyon posted:Where did I say I think that? Was it in your head? You keep questioning how I dare speak for the Haitian people when it comes to opposing American intervention in their country.
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Oct 19, 2022 17:34
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selec posted:Are the thread rules now that people can’t respond to other people’s responses? Can I get a Mod to weigh in here? That’s not a rule I am familiar with and things are extremely tetchy with the reporting in here. I asked the poster a personal question about their lived experiences. It's confusing as to why you'd feel you could speak for them. I'm not sure where you get the idea that I make rules in this thread. quote:I of course would never presume to speak for the Haitian people. Think of me more like a guy working on a truck assembly line who’s been ordered to start building them wrong again and wondering what the gently caress management is doing. Cool but I didn't see you attempting to speak for the Haitian people, but I did see Nucleic do it. That's why i asked you if you were. That's why I was specific about you not being the person I replied to.
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Oct 19, 2022 17:34
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Nucleic Acids posted:The solution is for the United States to not send troops in to establis it's preferred vision of order. Okay. What is your preferred vision of order?
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Oct 19, 2022 17:36
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Jaxyon posted:Cool but I didn't see you attempting to speak for the Haitian people, but I did see Nucleic do it. That's why i asked you if you were. That's why I was specific about you not being the person I replied to. That is not true at all.
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Oct 19, 2022 17:36
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DeathSandwich posted:Okay. What is your preferred vision of order? One that does not involve the United States.
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Oct 19, 2022 17:36
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Foxfire_ posted:Not really. Haiti isn't economically important to the US This makes the successful effort on the part of the Obama administration to keep their minimum wage from rising to sixty-one cents/hour to be just a cruel, pointless exercise in racist colonial domination, then. If it wasn’t because they’re economically important to us, why the gently caress would we be so cruel?
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Oct 19, 2022 17:36
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Nucleic Acids posted:You keep questioning how I dare speak for the Haitian people when it comes to opposing American intervention in their country. So we're going with "in your head" I guess?
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Oct 19, 2022 17:37
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Fascinated by the best minds arriving with The Actual Conspiracy As It Definitely Happened (source: trust me bro 2022 (ibid)) here used to justify several absolutes, such as that intervention cannot in any circumstances ever make things better but claims like the US assassinated Moise on purpose and the replacement is a fake socialist installation of a puppet government are going to get super boring super fast unless you're into the genre of America Bad But the situation right now probably deserves different conversations
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Oct 19, 2022 17:38
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Nucleic Acids posted:That is not true at all. Oh my bad, I made an assumption based on your posting. Can I take this to mean that you don't have any personal and immediately relevant experience with the public sentiment of people on the ground in Haiti right now and are mostly guessing, filtered through your personal biases?
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Oct 19, 2022 17:38
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Nucleic Acids posted:One that does not involve the United States. So, nothing? Can you please give a positive assertion of what should to be done in Haiti besides "no, soldier bad"?
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Oct 19, 2022 17:41
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Staluigi posted:Fascinated by the best minds arriving with The Actual Conspiracy As It Definitely Happened (source: trust me bro 2022 (ibid)) here used to justify several absolutes, such as that intervention cannot in any circumstances ever make things better but claims like the US assassinated Moise on purpose and the replacement is a fake socialist installation of a puppet government are going to get super boring super fast unless you're into the genre of America Bad Most folks likely did not think about Haiti much prior to it becoming a current event issue where they could weigh in on how they feel about America. I don't pretend to be super informed either but I'm also not making arguments for or against what is good for the Haitian people. I'm willing to admit my ignorance.
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Oct 19, 2022 17:41
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Nucleic Acids posted:One that does not involve the United States. You have claimed, with zero evidence, that the US was involved in the assassination of the previous leader, that the previous leader was a US puppet, and that the current government is also a US puppet. It's not clear how any actions by/towards any Haitian government, by your metrics, could possibly *not* involve the US.
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Oct 19, 2022 17:42
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DeathSandwich posted:So, nothing? Can you please give a positive assertion of what should to be done in Haiti besides "no, soldier bad"? My positive assertion is for the US and Canada not to deploy troops to the country.
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Oct 19, 2022 17:42
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:Maybe because it's not certain the Haitian government is acting in the best interests of it's people? Why do you think the Haitian government isn't acting in the best interests of its people? Note that the existence of protests is not, by itself, evidence of this. And if they aren't, then do you think there's some other entity in Haiti right now that's doing a better job of acting in the interests of its people? Is there someone who has a better plan for stopping the rampant violence and is in a position to pull it off? Do you think that not intervening will prevent the US from making the problems worse? These one-liners aren't really making it easy to get a sense for what you're arguing. To have a discussion, we need a little more than a single sentence. It's entirely possible that a US intervention could, in some situations and circumstances, actually make things worse. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that's the case in many situations and circumstances. But that doesn't mean we can just ignore the situation and circumstances completely. I don't think a military intervention alone will help things long-term. But when gang warfare and intentional blockades are jamming up basic logistics to the point that half the population can't even consistently get food, bringing in an armed force capable of securing basic transport routes is probably necessary to prevent a bunch of deaths while larger questions of political and/or economic change are worked out. It'd be nice if they could deter some of the rape and murder, too; I'm not super optimistic about the impact they'll have there, but it'll probably be at least a small net positive.
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Oct 19, 2022 17:43
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DeathSandwich posted:So, nothing? Can you please give a positive assertion of what should to be done in Haiti besides "no, soldier bad"? There are tons of other countries with military and civilian aid groups that do not have a multi-century history of theft and domination over one of the poorest nations on earth. You’d literally just have to keep the US and France out to alleviate like 95% of the creepy overtones of constant oppression and theft these two nations have perpetrated. Send some Koreans! Send some Chinese! Send the Pope’s Swiss guard. Hell put Cuba in charge of a coalition. The answer of “The US or nothing” is wildly unimaginative.
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Oct 19, 2022 17:45
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Clarste posted:Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are operating with literally zero facts and only on ideological grounds, correct? As in, everything the US does is bad so therefore you are working backwards to determine how this particular action is bad, after starting from that premise? You’ve figured it out. Here’s another key premise: anybody who is at odds with The Bad Country (America) is unequivocally Good.
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Oct 19, 2022 17:45
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Oct 19, 2022 17:49
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selec posted:There are tons of other countries with military and civilian aid groups that do not have a multi-century history of theft and domination over one of the poorest nations on earth. You’d literally just have to keep the US and France out to alleviate like 95% of the creepy overtones of constant oppression and theft these two nations have perpetrated. Send some Koreans! Send some Chinese! Send the Pope’s Swiss guard. Hell put Cuba in charge of a coalition. Who's going to send Koreans? Swiss Guards? Cuba? If they have the ability to help, why aren't they already? If we have to diplomatically bully someone else to take point how is that minimizing US influence? If we have the US just assign Cuba to lead this, how are they anything other than a figurehead acting on our behalf? Like I get the sentiment that the US should stay out. I understand it really I do. But these other nations are also looking to the US because like it or not we bear a not insignificant historical responsibility for it getting to the state its in and we should bear some responsibility to get the country back on its feet.
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Oct 19, 2022 17:58
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selec posted:There are tons of other countries with military and civilian aid groups that do not have a multi-century history of theft and domination over one of the poorest nations on earth. You’d literally just have to keep the US and France out to alleviate like 95% of the creepy overtones of constant oppression and theft these two nations have perpetrated. Send some Koreans! Send some Chinese! Send the Pope’s Swiss guard. Hell put Cuba in charge of a coalition. so you are not against, to pick a completely random example with absolutely no connection to past events, a UN led force composed of, say, Sri Lankan military units (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 19, 2022 17:59
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Jaxyon posted:Most folks likely did not think about Haiti much prior to it becoming a current event issue where they could weigh in on how they feel about America. It's complicated and mentally draining to keep involved in it since it's an endless novel of pain and dashed hope so I might tune out as much as I can eventually, but right now a lot of people in port au prince are waiting for intervention as the only real solution. Not because of any positive opinion of the UN or fond memories of previous occupation, but because poo poo is really just that horrible and Henry is useless and helpless and won't be able to restore order. He hasn't got it. Assassination attempts already on his back. Everyone's just doing the mental calculation of what gets food to them before they starve or die to gang violence Henry himself knows this poo poo, the call for intervention is also a bid for rescuing himself, and that's the actual problem the UN has to work around: the call is an invitation to be used to sustain a leader who can't ever get around to the next EXTREMELY OVERDUE election, but the alternative is probably tons of death and long term economic ruin even by Haitian standards
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Oct 19, 2022 18:05
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DeathSandwich posted:What is the best interest of the people, in this case? I definitely don't claim to know that. I was just responding to the idea that because "the Haitian government requested aid, we should do it". I definitely don't trust the US government to not gently caress it up in every conceivable way, and I'm skeptical of any government that asks for our help specifically, given our abysmal track record.
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Oct 19, 2022 18:13
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selec posted:There are tons of other countries with military and civilian aid groups that do not have a multi-century history of theft and domination over one of the poorest nations on earth. You’d literally just have to keep the US and France out to alleviate like 95% of the creepy overtones of constant oppression and theft these two nations have perpetrated. Send some Koreans! Send some Chinese! Send the Pope’s Swiss guard. Hell put Cuba in charge of a coalition. Your idea that there's any chance of Cuba running the UN international military coalition when the US is on the security council seems extremely fanciful. Same with China getting approved to run a military intervention in what the US (considers to be its) sphere of influence. The Swiss guard is only 135 people and absolutely not equipped for this kind of operation. Do you have serious suggestions? Do you think South Korea has the appetite to do this?
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Oct 19, 2022 18:19
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selec posted:We could just start by paying the $65,750,628.92 we owe them. We stole 500k from them in 1914, and never paid it back. You should look at the circumstances we took it under, it’s pretty enlightening. We've given them billions in aid. selec posted:This makes the successful effort on the part of the Obama administration to keep their minimum wage from rising to sixty-one cents/hour to be just a cruel, pointless exercise in racist colonial domination, then. https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2016/apr/21/lee-camp/did-hillary-clintons-state-department-help-suppres/ The minimum wage went from $1.75 to $5, but the limit is $3 for textile factories. Some in the Obama administration convinced the Haitian PM that going to $3 would get factories to leave and go elsewhere. We also gave them some trade preference help in the HOPE program, and this started around 08 so some GWB folks were probably involved. If the thread is going to dive into statistics and complexities around "we should try to stop rape", we can look at these minimum wage arguments as well.
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Oct 19, 2022 18:39
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A hypothetical U.N. mission would be led by someone from Portugal if it happened right now. The staff and money would come from various countries.
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Oct 19, 2022 18:43
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selec posted:There are tons of other countries with military and civilian aid groups that do not have a multi-century history of theft and domination over one of the poorest nations on earth. You’d literally just have to keep the US and France out to alleviate like 95% of the creepy overtones of constant oppression and theft these two nations have perpetrated. Send some Koreans! Send some Chinese! Send the Pope’s Swiss guard. Hell put Cuba in charge of a coalition. How many of these countries want to intervene though. It seems like the stuff happening in Haiti is at a crisis point (or beyond that) and it isn't like the world can volunteer other countries to go do something about it if those countries don't want to.
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Oct 19, 2022 18:45
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selec posted:It’s perfectly valid to speak like this as an American who owns part of the responsibility of the hegemon we run. Power flows from us, and is wielded against the powerless. Thus we have a moral duty to speak on it, I'm sorry, you think you're performing a moral good by posting on these forums? Are you loving kidding me?
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Oct 19, 2022 18:55
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Who will have the courage to speak against America on the SA forums? Who among you?
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Oct 19, 2022 18:57
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I think that the US should help Haiti with money and food and other humanitarian care, and not anything to do with guns and troops.Solkanar512 posted:I'm sorry, you think you're performing a moral good by posting on these forums? Are you loving kidding me? It's still a forum for discussing things, regardless of how relevant it is to broader society. If you want to go with the idea that talking about things here is completely pointless, then we might as well just close D&D for good.
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Oct 19, 2022 19:12
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Fister Roboto posted:I think that the US should help Haiti with money and food and other humanitarian care, and not anything to do with guns and troops. Most of the world is. The current problem is that gangs control about 75% of Port Au Prince and are effectively blockading and looting anything that anyone tries to bring in or out of the country.
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Oct 19, 2022 19:18
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evilweasel posted:so you are not against, to pick a completely random example with absolutely no connection to past events, a UN led force composed of, say, Sri Lankan military units Why would we pick at random when there are many qualified militaries without a specific negative history on the island? This is a sorry, pathetic attempt at provocation that undermines the idea that you have a positive contribution to make or even care about Haiti. It’s a rape joke in the CE thread, and the joke is about Haitians getting raped by foreign soldiers. Hell of an act.
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Oct 19, 2022 19:19
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Bowling Alone is really outdated with a lot of its references and research, but the central thesis seems pretty prophetic. This is a pretty mind-blowing statistic with huge ramifications for society. https://twitter.com/profgalloway/status/1582487937870069760
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Oct 19, 2022 19:25
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Most of the world is. The current problem is that gangs control about 75% of Port Au Prince and are effectively blockading and looting anything that anyone tries to bring in or out of the country. Yeah that's bad, but I don't think that adding more violence to the situation is going to be very likely to help. As many have already pointed out, it doesn't have a very good track record. It's kinda like how cops in the US intervening in a situation have a tendency to just kill people.
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Oct 19, 2022 19:25
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StumblyWumbly posted:https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/08/world/haiti-foreign-aid.html Just to clarify, please state these figures in per day and per hour wages? Because I think you’re conflation the demand for hourly wage raises, and the pitiful daily wages that were settled on. Edit; hell I will just go look it up, give me five minutes. Yeah, it’s much simpler to say that they wanted .61/hour, and instead were given about half of what they wanted under pressure from the Obama admin. That “fact check” basically confirms all this, it’s just doing the “half-true” because Haiti literally didn’t admit they did it because of US pressure. Laughable. Also, aid is not repayment for theft. We need to pay back what we stole, in total, and apologize specifically for it. selec fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Oct 19, 2022 |
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Oct 19, 2022 19:27
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Bowling Alone is really outdated with a lot of its references and research, but the central thesis seems pretty prophetic. It’s extremely bad for our society as a whole, that’s for sure
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Oct 19, 2022 19:32
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MixMasterMalaria posted:Your idea that there's any chance of Cuba running the UN international military coalition when the US is on the security council seems extremely fanciful. Same with China getting approved to run a military intervention in what the US (considers to be its) sphere of influence. The Swiss guard is only 135 people and absolutely not equipped for this kind of operation. Do you have serious suggestions? Do you think South Korea has the appetite to do this? I agree that the US is an enormous impediment to getting aid to Haiti because of their deranged global political outlook. It’s astonishing the way we treat Cuba, absolutely unhinged, but it’s illustrative of the racist, colonialist attitudes that persist in the US ruling class today. These are all serious suggestions; the serious need seems to be for the US to stop interfering with Haiti and let other people try to do some kind of good. If you consistently gently caress your job up you should get fired. This is how the world works unless you are the US, we just keep loving up because nobody can fire us. These are serious suggestions; the unserious suggestion is that the status quo can only ever persist.
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Oct 19, 2022 19:35
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FlamingLiberal posted:This general disconnection from society has been great for the GOP who get to have a bunch of lonely upset voters who just hate everyone I mean it’s great for democrats too! It’s a force working against the kinds of local class-based connections and building of power that would challenge them from their left. It’s great for the ruling class, you might say, but sucks for the rest of us.
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Oct 19, 2022 19:37
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FlamingLiberal posted:This general disconnection from society has been great for the GOP who get to have a bunch of lonely upset voters who just hate everyone There's a lot of interesting/wild social changes that don't have an exact explanation. A majority of people under 30 aren't dating or in a relationship. And 1/3 of men and 1/5 of women under 30 are virgins or haven't had sex in years. https://twitter.com/hunt4change/status/1582166917174808577 Young people were banging like crazy in 2008, so this is a pretty new societal change. Kind of wild that in the age of smart phones, hookup apps, and having constant contact with anyone we want, that so many people are friendless, have no relationship prospects, and no romance.
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Oct 19, 2022 19:40
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selec posted:Why would we pick at random when there are many qualified militaries without a specific negative history on the island? i am not surprised you are trying to deflect and claim that a clear counter-example to your poorly thought out argument is a "rape joke" but here is the issue: your proposal has literally been implemented before and it is being cited by people supporting you against intervention. so, I am pushing you to resolve the contradiction and to think harder than your "just pick anyone else besides the US" failing to take in mind, well, literally anything including how professional such forces are
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Oct 19, 2022 19:43
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evilweasel posted:i am not surprised you are trying to deflect and claim that a clear counter-example to your poorly thought out argument is a "rape joke" Are you claiming you picked Sri Lanka out of a hat? Because otherwise it’s just a rape joke my dude.
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Oct 19, 2022 19:46
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:There's a lot of interesting/wild social changes that don't have an exact explanation. Well, speaking from my own experience, it's a lot easier keeping an online persona than a RL one. I do kinda worry that I'm not going to have anyone at the funeral though, and the isolation is hard at times. I think part of it is that we've traded meatspace meetup places (bowling leagues, civic clubs) for online gaming and chats. Pandemic did that no favors.
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