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Fister Roboto posted:I think that the US should help Haiti with money and food and other humanitarian care, and not anything to do with guns and troops. My Haitian friend would disagree. He told me that Clinton sending food aid in the form of cheap rice in the 90s was directly responsible for all the farmers going out of business, creating a nation that was no longer self sufficient. That ship has sailed, but check your assumption that "food and other humanitarian care" is universally beneficial.
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Oct 19, 2022 20:02
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I wonder how much of it is some people not wanting to consider online friendships to be "real".
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Oct 19, 2022 20:02
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:There's a lot of interesting/wild social changes that don't have an exact explanation. No wonder there’s so much angst and anger in the world nowadays.
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Oct 19, 2022 20:03
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Fister Roboto posted:I think that the US should help Haiti with money and food and other humanitarian care, and not anything to do with guns and troops. The US already is, as are the UN and various other international aid groups. The problem right now is that gangs have blocked roads and major port facilities, making it impossible to reliably transport that food to the people who need it. And at this point, it's extremely unlikely that the gangs will go away simply because of political or economic reforms. In this particular situation, I can't think of any remotely plausible alternative to using troops to protect critical infrastructure and break the blockades on vital resources. Haiti obviously needs economic and political changes as well, but "heavily armed warlords have claimed all the food for their groups" is an issue which can't wait around for the elite classes to negotiate a settlement they can all agree on. Somebody needs to make it possible to reliably transport food around the country without it going right into gangs' stockpiles, even if that means defending the food by force. And the Haitian police aren't up to the task, though it's not clear to me how much corruption plays a part in that (the gang leader running the main fuel blockade is a former cop with close ties to the Haitian police and to the previous government).
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Oct 19, 2022 20:05
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Fister Roboto posted:I wonder how much of it is some people not wanting to consider online friendships to be "real". I think we genuinely need to have a national discussion on what the definition of a friend is, how much is “enough” for one person, and what responsibilities we have to our society and each other. Oh, and what is the appropriate amount to spend on a first date and do you take home leftovers on a date /s I do think social media did cheapen almost every answer to these questions.
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Oct 19, 2022 20:07
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some what related reminds me of the cult hobbies of stonks and buttcoin poo poo. life sucks and people just burn money hoping the fairy tale of a golden ticket is real. (oh and they lean into some bad gambling mindsets and dont know they should literally always cash out when they get more than they burned/spent or STOP when you start to lose )
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Oct 19, 2022 20:08
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PhazonLink posted:some what related reminds me of the cult hobbies of stonks and buttcoin poo poo. life sucks and people just burn money hoping the fairy tale of a golden ticket is real. It’s a way of not thinking too deeply about how rigged the system is. Turns out all that work hard and you’ll succeed stuff isn’t true in the least. I have only gotten lazier and lazier as they pay me more and more and ask less and less. It’s a rigged game, so it’s natural to want some kind of cheat code, especially when you’ve been told your entire life that alternate ways of organizing society are basically a lie from the devil.
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Oct 19, 2022 20:10
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Main Paineframe posted:The US already is, as are the UN and various other international aid groups. The problem right now is that gangs have blocked roads and major port facilities, making it impossible to reliably transport that food to the people who need it. And at this point, it's extremely unlikely that the gangs will go away simply because of political or economic reforms. In this particular situation, I can't think of any remotely plausible alternative to using troops to protect critical infrastructure and break the blockades on vital resources. I already responded to this exact same point that Leon made. Fister Roboto posted:Yeah that's bad, but I don't think that adding more violence to the situation is going to be very likely to help. As many have already pointed out, it doesn't have a very good track record.
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Oct 19, 2022 20:24
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:There's a lot of interesting/wild social changes that don't have an exact explanation. People under thirty are less likely to work one job, less likely to have their own place, more likely to live with parents, have less money to spend on dates etc.
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Oct 19, 2022 20:32
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FizFashizzle posted:People under thirty are less likely to work one job, less likely to have their own place, more likely to live with parents, have less money to spend on dates etc. That's true, but also not different to such a degree that it matches the dramatic rise for all of those factors. People used to live in multi-generation households and people still had friends and found ways to have sex. 2008 and 2009 were among the worst years for youth unemployment and housing ever recorded, but they were setting records for banging at that time.
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Oct 19, 2022 20:40
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Fister Roboto posted:I already responded to this exact same point that Leon made. Yes, I'm aware. I was responding to that when I said "I can't think of any remotely plausible alternative to using troops to protect critical infrastructure and break the blockades on vital resources". I don't see how the current situation gets solved without violence, and vague handwavey references to historical US crimes and wildly incorrect analogies don't give me any confidence that you see a way to solve it without violence either.
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Oct 19, 2022 20:42
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Main Paineframe posted:Yes, I'm aware. I was responding to that when I said "I can't think of any remotely plausible alternative to using troops to protect critical infrastructure and break the blockades on vital resources". You're right, I don't see a way to solve it without violence. But I also don't see a way to solve it with violence. Continue giving money and humanitarian aid, even if it's not 100% effective. But I think that America should not be playing world police, especially in situations that they've had a hand in creating.
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Oct 19, 2022 20:53
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:That's true, but also not different to such a degree that it matches the dramatic rise for all of those factors. I would like to see that survey for compiling those record results.
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Oct 19, 2022 21:21
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Leon Sumbitches posted:My Haitian friend would disagree. I had no idea. Fascinating. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-11472874 Bill loving Clinton posted:I have to live every day with the consequences of the lost capacity to produce a rice crop in Haiti to feed those people, because of what I did. Food aid short term when people are having trouble makes sense, but it's a fantastic point about the unintended consequences.
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Oct 19, 2022 21:24
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Silly Burrito posted:I would like to see that survey for compiling those record results. In the tweet earlier on this page. 2008 and 2009 were record low periods with only about 9% of people under 30 saying they hadn't had sex in the last year.
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Oct 19, 2022 21:47
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PhazonLink posted:some what related reminds me of the cult hobbies of stonks and buttcoin poo poo. life sucks and people just burn money hoping the fairy tale of a golden ticket is real. the grind mindset is also pretty bad for this as well as the gig economy being pretty terrible for having reliable hours to plan anything with anyone. As corporations become bigger and more powerful and they create even more dystopian situations for people it becomes hard to really connect with people. When it comes to Haiti. They do need some form of military support. There are no two ways around it. Is it prudent for the US to do this? I honestly don't know. Considering how they used private military contractors that caused serious problems in Afghanistan and Iraq because of how we try to privitize everything I don't see them doing things differently in Haiti. I may be wrong though.
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Oct 19, 2022 21:53
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:In the tweet earlier on this page. 2008 and 2009 were record low periods with only about 9% of people under 30 saying they hadn't had sex in the last year. I completely missed that the survey was taken in pre-pandemic 2018.
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Oct 19, 2022 21:56
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:There's a lot of interesting/wild social changes that don't have an exact explanation. I'm not sure if that is what the graph in the tweet says. The graph states that about 1/3rd of men under 30 haven't had sex in the past year, not that they are virgins or haven't had sex in years. Found via matt yglesias of all people an article from the IFS (which I think runs conservatively) which looks at under 35s and finds a pretty steep decline in male sexlessness, with female sexlessness now surpassing it. The IFS article tries to attribute sexlessness to a few things (particularly the proportion of never married), but admits that sample sizes are pretty low. Clearly under 35s and under 30s aren't identical though. There's also a tweet going around noting how the survey only has 138 responses for that question, which is apparently lower than others. I've seen some people express scepticism at the sample size itself, but I'm not enough of a stats person to comment. I'm sceptical we have enough data to show to what degree there is a sex recession or to figure out the causes.
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Oct 19, 2022 22:04
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selec posted:Are you claiming you picked Sri Lanka out of a hat? Because otherwise it’s just a rape joke my dude. Stop accusing people of making rape jokes just because you refuse to back up your points. It's gross as gently caress. I know you gotta stick with your posting buddies and support them but you can do it without making gross personal claims about others. By the way, do you consider these posts a moral good as well? Do you think you're making the lives of Haitians better by posting like this? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Solkanar512 fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Oct 19, 2022 |
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Oct 19, 2022 22:14
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tbh I kind of had the tenor of this discussion pretty well pegged when I brought up the 2010 earthquake relief and was told that was just another example of imperial domination
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Oct 19, 2022 22:16
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Solkanar512 posted:Stop accusing people of making rape jokes just because you refuse to back up your points. It's gross as gently caress. I know you gotta stick with your posting buddies and support them but you can do it without making gross personal claims about others. Doesn't seem to be any other explanation for why they picked Sri Lanka as an example.
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Oct 19, 2022 22:59
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Bear Enthusiast posted:Doesn't seem to be any other explanation for why they picked Sri Lanka as an example. My read is that it wasn't a joke, it was a rebuttal to the idea that America Bad is the extent of the logic we need to use here. It would take some substantial logical contortions to blame the US for an SL unit under UN aegis forcing children into brothel slavery. It's also linked directly to the question of: okay, let's say the US lets other non-France countries take the lead (Leon said Portugal's currently up for leadership, I have no particular idea how that works). Has the UN done enough to prevent that and other past intervention problems from happening again? as far as that SPECIFIC incident/subtopic of "UN fixed, y/n" i'm going to plant my flag on a firm "eh", afaict they reformed their soldier selection process to among other things make it less unilateral on the part of contributor countries, but i'm not sure "give us enough information for a decent background check" is going to do the thing or be adequately funded
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Oct 19, 2022 23:12
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Solkanar512 posted:Stop accusing people of making rape jokes just because you refuse to back up your points. It's gross as gently caress. I know you gotta stick with your posting buddies and support them but you can do it without making gross personal claims about others. What other reason would the user pick Sri Lanka out of a hat, considering the mentions it has received in this thread? Its a rape joke about Haitians getting raped. Hell of an act, and deeply disturbing when it comes to thinking about who actually gives a gently caress about Haiti vs being unable to bear the presence of criticism of the US.
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Oct 19, 2022 23:13
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GreyjoyBastard posted:My read is that it wasn't a joke, it was a rebuttal to the idea that America Bad is the extent of the logic we need to use here. It would take some substantial logical contortions to blame the US for an SL unit under UN aegis forcing children into brothel slavery. It's also linked directly to the question of: okay, let's say the US lets other non-France countries take the lead (Leon said Portugal's currently up for leadership, I have no particular idea how that works). Has the UN done enough to prevent that and other past intervention problems from happening again? Now this is just rape joke apologia. Disgusting. He could’ve picked any other country but he had to make a joke about how those other armies are just set to full rape-o-magic the whole time.
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Oct 19, 2022 23:13
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go reread the exchange:selec posted:There are tons of other countries with military and civilian aid groups that do not have a multi-century history of theft and domination over one of the poorest nations on earth. You’d literally just have to keep the US and France out to alleviate like 95% of the creepy overtones of constant oppression and theft these two nations have perpetrated. Send some Koreans! Send some Chinese! Send the Pope’s Swiss guard. Hell put Cuba in charge of a coalition. and then evilweasel rather sarcastically brought up Sri Lanka as a counterexample to the above: Sri Lanka does not have a multi-century history of theft and domination over Haiti, and keeping the US and France out did not stop Sri Lankan troops from doing horrible poo poo when they were in Haiti. I believe the point evilweasel was making is that just grabbing any non-US non-France country to provide civilian or military aid is not a guarantee that they will not do horrible poo poo to Haiti. edit: I don't think it's a terribly productive line of discussion anyway and I personally am not keen on the rape-metrics that were posted earlier in the thread. Folks can make points about Haiti and possibly interventions without resorting to theorycrafting rape statistics. Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Oct 19, 2022 |
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Oct 19, 2022 23:14
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Fritz the Horse posted:go reread the exchange: Rape apologia yoga. I named many countries that could be called on, but for SOME REASON we gotta go back to Sri Lanka for help.
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Oct 19, 2022 23:16
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Bear Enthusiast posted:Doesn't seem to be any other explanation for why they picked Sri Lanka as an example. it is an incident specifically being discussed in this thread, in between selec posts, that specifically rebuts his idea of "just pick anyone BUT the united states" that somehow he did not integrate into his thinking despite it being literally right there and being used by his posting buddies this is why i described it as "to pick a completely random example with absolutely no connection to past events"
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Oct 19, 2022 23:17
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evilweasel posted:it is an incident specifically being discussed in this thread, in between selec posts, that specifically rebuts his idea of "just pick anyone BUT the united states" that somehow he did not integrate into his thinking despite it being literally right there and being used by his posting buddies My idea is not to pick anyone at random, it’s to specifically exclude previous colonial and military oppressors of Haiti, which would naturally include Sri Lanka. You’re just lying about my arguments now to cover your disgusting impulsive joke. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 19, 2022 23:19
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Fritz the Horse posted:go reread the exchange: Another example: In Canada we disbanded our airborne regiment because they tortured a kid to death in Somalia during a humanitarian mission.
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Oct 19, 2022 23:29
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Edit: dropping it
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Oct 19, 2022 23:29
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selec posted:My idea is not to pick anyone at random, it’s to specifically exclude previous colonial and military oppressors of Haiti, which would naturally include Sri Lanka. You’re just lying about my arguments now to cover your disgusting impulsive joke. it's a succinct illustration of just how little thought you put into the "idea" your "idea" is just pick anyone at random except cross certain nations off the list because, uh, your dim idea of history, poorly understood is to assume somehow that united states soldiers and french soldiers are intrinsically going to make everything worse so we look in the past, when there was a un force, with pretty much random nations. how did that work out? well, it turns out that picking the militaries of random countries is not, in fact, a panacea. that you could not grasp the obvious nature in which that previous incident invalidated your idea and not that "oh well we forgot to add sri lanka to the Bad Nations list" even after it is pointed out just icing on the cake
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Oct 19, 2022 23:35
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I think we had enough to work on when he suggested the Swiss Guard and all that and reiterated the seriousness of the proposals. could just be disregarded at that point in favor of what's actually up on the proposal board 1. UN gets cold feet over the whole thing where Henry is polluting the waters with an attempt to use intervening forces to rescue his own legitimacy, the current condition of violent breakdown continues and little can be meaningfully done to restore order in the most critical areas, due to corruption and insufficiency in the security forces and civil services. No humanitarian channels. Aid cannot reach large sections of pap and the south without being hijacked by gangs. 2. UN decides poo poo is too critical, fucks about a bit, launches interventionary force, US probably tags along as requested. We wait and see if the "cure" is kinder than the underlying condition, a darling national pasttime
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Oct 20, 2022 00:11
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I was honestly willing to entertain the notion of doing nothing and what that meant to people, but not so much when people descend into histrionics the moment their reasoning is challenged or asked for details. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 20, 2022 01:27
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I don't know if nothing is an option at this point when the lives of so many people are on the line. Is there a decent estimate of how much of the country will actually follow Henry?
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Oct 20, 2022 02:33
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I know it's not fun to think about, but what's the least bad realistic option when it comes to Haiti?
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Oct 20, 2022 02:36
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Eric Cantonese posted:I know it's not fun to think about, but what's the least bad realistic option when it comes to Haiti? Most realistic option is it simmers as a failed state a la Somalia for twenty or thirty years. Simple truth is no one is willing to bear the cost of intervention, and it's not a financial cost I'm talking about.
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Oct 20, 2022 02:46
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cat botherer posted:You sure seem to be describing a post-apocalypic wasteland. So you think there won't be restaurants in Haiti if we don't intervene? Koos Group posted:Lack of respect and willingness to defend or adjust arguments when speaking to an expert on the matter. User loses posting privileges for 1 day. If this is some new rule, put it in the rules thread. Also, just because someone is from somewhere doesn’t make them an expert. I’m not an expert on Turkey and if someone got probed for disrespecting my lived experience or whatever I’d think it extremely silly.
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Oct 20, 2022 03:07
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:There's a lot of interesting/wild social changes that don't have an exact explanation. Is it possible that, like the rise in income inequality in the US, we’re also seeing a concentration of sex at the highest sexual income levels - a sort of sex 1%? Could we see a Bernie Sanders of sex in the future?
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Oct 20, 2022 03:46
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pencilhands posted:Is it possible that, like the rise in income inequality in the US, we’re also seeing a concentration of sex at the highest sexual income levels - a sort of sex 1%? I am once again asking you to cum on my face (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 20, 2022 04:01
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"When I rise it will be with the skanks, and not from the skanks." -Eugene Debs
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