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WarpedLichen posted:I don't think the letter being from June/July makes it any less dumb. The lack of content or meaningful call to action is what makes it dumb. That it got picked up by the media closer to the election as a political weapon is just taking advantage of its inherent dumbness. It has an October date stamp, and was advertised online by Progressive Caucus yesterday. It's not something that was sent in June and just noticed now.
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Oct 25, 2022 16:51
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OddObserver posted:It has an October date stamp, and was advertised online by Progressive Caucus yesterday. It's not something that was sent in June and just noticed now. Thanks, now I'm even more confused by this, so uh, congrats to them I guess.
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Oct 25, 2022 17:06
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The sequence that makes sense is that the text of the letter was distributed to members much earlier this year for consideration and signature and then the ball got dropped for whatever reason on actually publishing it -- or they felt they needed a certain # of signatories and shopped it around until they hit it, even if it took 4 months.
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Oct 25, 2022 17:23
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I must have missed when this became a US politics thread.
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Oct 25, 2022 17:36
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cinci zoo sniper posted:I must have missed when this became a US politics thread. I think developments that potentially affect the US' support of Ukraine are relevant though, no? I know my word isn't that important here, but I don't think discussion has gone off topic yet.
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Oct 25, 2022 17:44
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Eric Cantonese posted:I think developments that potentially affect the US' support of Ukraine are relevant though, no? I know my word isn't that important here, but I don't think discussion has gone off topic yet. https://mobile.twitter.com/LACaldwellDC/status/1584948269389447177 (Posted by a WaPo correspondent immediately after an article on "bipartisan squeeze" on Biden Ukraine policy) https://mobile.twitter.com/NolanDMcCaskill/status/1584948593667866627 Rogue staffer blame detected.... Edit: and it's disappointing that the statement clearly shows lack of understanding about what was wrong with the letter in the first place and is, well, more USPol than this thread. OddObserver fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Oct 25, 2022 |
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Oct 25, 2022 17:49
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With minimal movement reported on the front, the thread returns to its the median point of dnd threads: disgusting goon food and US politics
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Oct 25, 2022 18:19
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Eric Cantonese posted:I think developments that potentially affect the US' support of Ukraine are relevant though, no? I know my word isn't that important here, but I don't think discussion has gone off topic yet. No, this is a current events thread for a war in Ukraine, and the last page about economies of Germany and California, months old words from random members of the lower house of US parliament, and some theoretical wanking about what could or could not happen at some point in the future was broadly irrelevant and tedious to read.
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Oct 25, 2022 18:20
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FishBulbia posted:With minimal movement reported on the front, the thread returns to its the median point of dnd threads: disgusting goon food and US politics So, barbecue: if it isn't vinegar based it's trash For this purpose Heinz ketchup counts as vinegar (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 25, 2022 18:29
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:So, barbecue: if it isn't vinegar based it's trash NGL once in Lviv I went to this upscale "reinvented" ukrainian food place that had deep fried dumplings served with a sweet thick smoke sauce. Felt the corn sugar coursing through my veins and understood America. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 25, 2022 18:32
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cinci zoo sniper posted:No, this is a current events thread for a war in Ukraine, and the last page about economies of Germany and California, months old words from random members of the lower house of US parliament, and some theoretical wanking about what could or could not happen at some point in the future was broadly irrelevant and tedious to read. I'll let it die after this, but I think it's important to point out that it wasn't months-old wording. It was a letter that came out just yesterday that is only now being explained away by various people as "months old wording" due to the political fallout that they obviously did not anticipate. Even non-US publications thought it looked like a noteworthy sign of "cracks" in the US. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/oct/25/progressive-democrats-urge-joe-biden-to-shift-strategy-and-directly-engage-with-russia I think it's a sign of something but you're right that it gets into uncertain theoretical discussions and I respect your point that this is not the thread to dive too much into that. Hopefully Kit can do another Tweet update so there's other stuff to talk about. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 25, 2022 18:34
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OddObserver posted:Rogue staffer blame detected.... It wasn’t a rogue staffer. Otherwise, Jayapal wouldn’t have issued a clarifying statement yesterday after the letter was released (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 25, 2022 18:50
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https://mobile.twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1584687616104202241
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Oct 25, 2022 18:56
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Eric Cantonese posted:I'll let it die after this, but I think it's important to point out that it wasn't months-old wording. It was a letter that came out just yesterday that is only now being explained away by various people as "months old wording" due to the political fallout that they obviously did not anticipate. Even non-US publications thought it looked like a noteworthy sign of "cracks" in the US. Instead of derailing the thread further with the most  caveat "I hope someone else makes a relevant post", consider being the change that you want to see.
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Oct 25, 2022 18:58
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Am I missing something because the direct politics of american support for Ukraine seems incredibly in the purview of this thread called "War in Ukraine"? particularly while it's still a developing story (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 25, 2022 19:18
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Griefor posted:France is pretty heavy on nuclear (selling excess nuclear electricity to Germany even) but Germany has made it a huge political issue to not use nuclear power. The political climate is such that plans for nuclear plants are political suicide. Even if the coal plants used to fill in the gaps are having much worse total effect on health/life expectancy than nuclear power would, meltdown risk included. Even France has some broke brained stuff where their leaders were trying to cut their nuclear power usage in half by 2035 before this current crisis. The anti-nuclear politics are extremely strong. https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/russias-medvedev-threatens-defense-industry-arrests-during-tank-plant-visit Surely threatening the Russian defense industry will make up for their dependence on western parts and the resulting stoppages inflicted by the sanctions. https://twitter.com/olgarithmic/status/1584340542460428288 Depressing life vests are showing up. https://twitter.com/ralee85/status/1584799754407464960 Older HAWK air defense systems are probably coming to UA. It's old technology, the US military hasn't used HAWK anti-air for two decades.
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Oct 25, 2022 19:18
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golden bubble posted:https://twitter.com/ralee85/status/1584799754407464960 Gotta make room in the warehouse for all the new goodies you can buy to replace the old poo poo.
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Oct 25, 2022 19:22
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golden bubble posted:
If they can shoot down Shahed-136 then why not?
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Oct 25, 2022 19:24
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Am I missing something because the direct politics of american support for Ukraine seems incredibly in the purview of this thread called "War in Ukraine"? particularly while it's still a developing story You're missing several posts on the last page that have nothing at all to do with the developing story, which thought of ants and died anyway.
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Oct 25, 2022 19:26
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golden bubble posted:https://twitter.com/olgarithmic/status/1584340542460428288 The fact that this (hi-vis or no) is something that actually has to be seriously considered is incredibly depressing.
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Oct 25, 2022 19:27
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Since Russia actively targets civilians, I'd suggest the kids need camouflaged armor too, not hi-viz. Russian state TV literally has dudes daydreaming about drowning Ukrainian kids.
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Oct 25, 2022 19:29
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Hi-viz may be helpful for pulling people out of buildings collapsed by random artillery shelling. ... Yeah.
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Oct 25, 2022 19:38
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Probably a car bomb in Mellitipol. What are we calling it - Insurgents? Rebels? Freedom fighters? I suppose the label doesn't matter that much. https://twitter.com/Albina40028891/status/1584861173312208898?t=L88tIH-sneuuaodSSDRxiA&s=19 Steady grinding progress in Luhansk toward Svatove. https://twitter.com/Tendar/status/1584861138919260161?t=oizNl8lt4y72rl52PI_TKg&s=19 https://twitter.com/JulianRoepcke/status/1584851732932296705?t=MwZOq4FLOKEWvBbkaaIPxg&s=19 Amusingly Rssian forces were been driven out of Bakhmut suburbs and the concrete plant in 3 days. It took Russia 2 months to capture it in constant piecemeal attacks. Several Telegram videos of Russian trenches taken and Russian dead. Reliable casualty figures do no exist but I feel confident that Russia has taken a beating here. https://twitter.com/ChuckPfarrer/status/1584892953457463296?t=33k_bB8iaffD8rFE4g7HbA&s=19 Callback to the early days - incredible reversal by Ukraine https://twitter.com/russophileLs/status/1584537707581440000?t=flNt7w6HYuKsD_-QFtNOvQ&s=19
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Oct 25, 2022 20:30
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sean10mm posted:Since Russia actively targets civilians, I'd suggest the kids need camouflaged armor too, not hi-viz. Russian state TV literally has dudes daydreaming about drowning Ukrainian kids. As sad as this topic is, camo on kids will only lead to russians shooting at them and accusing UKR of using child soldiers.
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Oct 25, 2022 20:31
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golden bubble posted:https://twitter.com/ralee85/status/1584799754407464960 Given the circumstances that would be pretty ironic, as Iran still operates the HAWK, and produces its own reverse engineered copies.
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Oct 25, 2022 20:32
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golden bubble posted:
The Phase 3 Hawk system, a major update released in 1989 and what they would be getting, is actually still good. Spain is already sending 4 Phase 3 launchers to Ukraine and Sweden and Romania and bunch of other western allied countries still use the system as well. Honestly US should have offered these systems much sooner since they are just sitting on them.
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Oct 25, 2022 20:34
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Owling Howl posted:Callback to the early days - incredible reversal by Ukraine Not just reversal, I don't think that map was ever correct. Most of those green areas had, like, a single column of russians driving down the main road or something. Icehawk posted:The Phase 3 Hawk system, a major update released in 1989 and what they would be getting, is actually still good. Spain is already sending 4 Phase 3 launchers to Ukraine and Sweden and Romania and bunch of other western allied countries still use the system as well. Honestly US should have offered these systems much sooner since they are just sitting on them.
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Oct 25, 2022 20:49
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Zhanism posted:As sad as this topic is, camo on kids will only lead to russians shooting at them and accusing UKR of using child soldiers. Best bet is to keep kids out of sight of Russians, and camo is more likely to do that than neon orange.
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Oct 25, 2022 21:01
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Owling Howl posted:Probably a car bomb in Mellitipol. What are we calling it - Insurgents? Rebels? Freedom fighters? I suppose the label doesn't matter that much. Partisans.
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Oct 25, 2022 21:03
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Icehawk posted:The Phase 3 Hawk system, a major update released in 1989 and what they would be getting, is actually still good. Spain is already sending 4 Phase 3 launchers to Ukraine and Sweden and Romania and bunch of other western allied countries still use the system as well. Honestly US should have offered these systems much sooner since they are just sitting on them. Perhaps, but air has never been a factor in this war--sure there were cruise missile launches, but nothing of a sustained and huge scale. Existing air defenses (S300s, MANPADs, AA missiles, etc) were enough to suppress the RU AF. The focus was more on advanced AA to continue the suppression going forward rather than hastily plugging that gap with what legacy systems we have sitting around. The iranian drone problem, however, changes the calculus there significantly.
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Oct 25, 2022 21:08
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to close. Skip to :30 for the fun and keep watching
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Icehawk posted:The Phase 3 Hawk system, a major update released in 1989 and what they would be getting, is actually still good. Spain is already sending 4 Phase 3 launchers to Ukraine and Sweden and Romania and bunch of other western allied countries still use the system as well. Honestly US should have offered these systems much sooner since they are just sitting on them. They honestly would be doing us more of a favor by taking them off our hand more than other way around. It's been up hill battle against politicians to replace many legacy ground based AA and AAA with modern and in several cases, cheaper replacements, as they'll point to our existing arsenal and say it good enough, even though it's several generations behind what the replacement is capable of. It's also harder and more expensive keep them stockpiled, largely because many of core components, parts, and computers that are used in these system are not mass produced anymore and have to be special ordered from extremely expensive workshops. A prime of example of this problem, while neither AA or AAA weapon, is the Tomahawk missile.
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Oct 25, 2022 21:50
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Owling Howl posted:Probably a car bomb in Mellitipol. What are we calling it - Insurgents? Rebels? Freedom fighters? I suppose the label doesn't matter that much. probably just because it's europe but partisans is what was being used to describe their earlier assassinations
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Oct 25, 2022 22:21
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the paradigm shift posted:probably just because it's europe but partisans is what was being used to describe their earlier assassinations "Partisan" seems like the right label, it's what I instantly thought. "Rebel" doesn't really make sense given that their not fighting to restore a state/depose a regime, but in support of one. "Insurgent" isn't technically wrong, but is too pejorative unless you're a Russian TV anchor.
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Oct 25, 2022 23:13
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https://tass.ru/politika/16150577 Assistant to the secretary of the national security council of Russia says that desatanization of Ukraine is an increasingly pressing concern. DJ_Mindboggler posted:"Partisan" seems like the right label, it's what I instantly thought. "Rebel" doesn't really make sense given that their not fighting to restore a state/depose a regime, but in support of one. "Insurgent" isn't technically wrong, but is too pejorative unless you're a Russian TV anchor. These would be “special forces” - firstly to deflate questions on who’s rebelling or how are these things happening, but secondly because UAF are already occupying the title of “guerillas”/“insurgents” (same term in Russian).
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Oct 25, 2022 23:19
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mobby_6kl posted:Not just reversal, I don't think that map was ever correct. Most of those green areas had, like, a single column of russians driving down the main road or something. Yeah, the situation was never close to this, but it is definitely what they were trying to portray it as for a while which if anything makes it worse.
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Oct 25, 2022 23:47
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Ikasuhito posted:Yeah, the situation was never close to this, but it is definitely what they were trying to portray it as for a while which if anything makes it worse. Of course but it's fun to throw the initial propaganda back at them because it makes the current situation seem so much more depressing. It's genuinely incredible how little land Russia has managed to take in 8 months of war - in one of Europes poorest countries on their own border.
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Oct 26, 2022 00:27
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Owling Howl posted:Of course but it's fun to throw the initial propaganda back at them because it makes the current situation seem so much more depressing. I think it shows conclusively why bigger and stronger countries don’t just gobble up much smaller and weaker neighboring countries. Because wars are to a large degree about how engaged the population is in them, and nothing motivates people to fight like the threat of their country being annexed and culture wiped out. A country has to have some massive advantages over the locals in order to take and permanently hold territory where the populace really really really doesn’t want them there. An ruling power has to try and build legitimacy among the people it rules, and a sovereign state taking territory from another sovereign state has zero legitimacy. It would be a tall order even if the populace started out with a highly unfavorable opinion of their current government and a positive view of the annexer’s government. Trying to control even a small territory where the population hates your guts without it turning into an endless deathpit for your occupying soldiers is hard. Russia trying to gobble up all or most of Ukraine, a sovereign state of 40 million people, was pure delusional insanity. It would have been insanity even if Kyiv had fallen in the first assault. Russia would have had its work cut out for it even if from the very start they had only tried to annex and deployed all their forces to enough of Donets, Zaporizhzhia, and Kherson oblasts to make a viable land bridge to Crimea. That’s why the invasion caught so many major intelligence agencies like the French and the Ukrainian ones’ off guard: they were thinking “Surely the Russians can’t be this loving crazy/stupid.” Not that we can or ever could just sit back and consider the war to be a foregone conclusion; while I don’t think the Russians can exactly “win,” they absolutely can turn Ukraine into a broken wasteland full of corpses. Sucrose fucked around with this message at 01:11 on Oct 26, 2022 |
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Oct 26, 2022 00:58
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I think the Russian state existing in a sort of weaponized apathy really blinded them to this reality.
Crow Buddy fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Oct 26, 2022 |
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Oct 26, 2022 01:21
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Sucrose posted:I think it shows conclusively why bigger and stronger countries don’t just gobble up much smaller and weaker neighboring countries. Because wars are to a large degree about how engaged the population is in them, and nothing motivates people to fight like the threat of their country being annexed and culture wiped out. A country has to have some massive advantages over the locals in order to take and permanently hold territory where the populace really really really doesn’t want them there. An ruling power has to try and build legitimacy among the people it rules, and a sovereign state taking territory from another sovereign state has zero legitimacy. It would be a tall order even if the populace started out with a highly unfavorable opinion of their current government and a positive view of the annexer’s government. Yeah, it's really easy to see that this is the downside of "hypernormalization": Putin and the siloviki have spent decades of getting the Russian populace to become disengaged from politics through generating fear, uncertainty, and doubt so they can capitalize on it, but it's also led to a fatalistic numbing apathy among Russians. No matter how much they are claiming that Ukraine is an existential threat now, no one's buying.
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