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The only moral choice is complacence. Let Joyce's psycho squad murder and mutilate and rape whoever they want. To fight evil is itself evil. Surrender. Die quietly.
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Nov 7, 2022 18:14
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No Dignity posted:It's also one of the *only* ones that somewhat successfully threaded the needle between running a tight enough ship to resist counter revolution and not becoming an autocratic police state The thing is though, that the word autocratic doesn't mean poo poo. And what is the US if not a police state?
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Nov 7, 2022 18:19
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Jack Trades posted:The correct answer is "neither". disco elysium doesn’t have a lot of patience for people who look for a semantical middle ground. that’s the domain of moralism, the closest thing to an outright “evil” ideology the game presents. you have to pick one the fact is that evrart is unlikable but not unvirtuous, with the unspoken implication that polite standards of “likability” are cultivated by people whose influence is intensely corrosive to a functioning society. Joyce isn’t even a proper representative of such people either, because she has no illusions as to what she is or the harmful influence she has on the world, but she’s captured by the same institutions she ostensibly leads and despises. evrart has no such limitations, and no need or desire to be polite about his goals
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Nov 7, 2022 18:21
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Jack Trades posted:The correct answer is "neither". Uhuh, I'm going to go with the person who will materially improve the world for regular people. Don't really give a gently caress if that's "good" or not. Also just lol if your opinion of Evrart is in any way shaped by you taking the poo poo he talks to Harry, a *police officer* and also *total wreck of a human being* personally.
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Nov 7, 2022 18:25
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Joyce believed in the revolution but wasn't prepared to pay the price in blood that it would take to succeed. By her account they could have had it all but ran out of bullets for those who wouldn't let it happen. She isn't some personification of captialist exploitation, she is there as a steelman for the liberal case. Everart is everything that is wrong with socialism. He, with measurehead looming beside him, is the one who is more equal than others. You as a player sympathetic to the socialist ideal have to face up to its ugliest side and decide if you still believe.
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Nov 7, 2022 18:25
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But what if he sells weed on the side?
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Nov 7, 2022 18:26
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Oxxidation posted:disco elysium doesn’t have a lot of patience for people who look for a semantical middle ground. that’s the domain of moralism, the closest thing to an outright “evil” ideology the game presents. you have to pick one You wanna know who is a proper representative of such people? Sunday. Motherfucking. Friend. jiggerypokery posted:Joyce believed in the revolution but wasn't prepared to pay the price in blood that it would take to succeed. By her account they could have had it all but ran out of bullets for those who wouldn't let it happen. She isn't some personification of captialist exploitation, she is there as a steelman for the liberal case. Evrart *gets poo poo done*, which is the only measure worth a gently caress. Philosophizing about morality and talking a lot of words is utterly worthless. Doing things to materially improve conditions is what's up.
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Nov 7, 2022 18:27
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Orange Devil posted:The thing is though, that the word autocratic doesn't mean poo poo. And what is the US if not a police state? I don't think it loses value because it can describe two things, they can both be Cop States : P Oxxidation posted:disco elysium doesn’t have a lot of patience for people who look for a semantical middle ground. that’s the domain of moralism, the closest thing to an outright “evil” ideology the game presents. you have to pick one 
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Nov 7, 2022 18:27
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Honestly, i find sundary friend less despicable than Joyce. At least Sunday actually believes he is doing good. Joyce is fully aware that her decisions are killing people she just lies about it and does it anyway.
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Nov 7, 2022 18:28
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Evrart gets a lot of poo poo done. poo poo like lining his own pockets and making sure there's no possibility of anyone democratically replacing him.
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Nov 7, 2022 18:34
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What wealth do you imagine Evrarte has? He lives in a shipping container ffs. Edit: His prized possession is a singing fish.
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Nov 7, 2022 18:35
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Yeah when I'm looking at Evrart and Joyce, it's Evrart who lines his own pockets and undermines democracy the most, and delivers material improvements for common folk the least. You buffoon.
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Nov 7, 2022 18:35
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Honestly, i find sundary friend less despicable than Joyce. At least Sunday actually believes he is doing good. Joyce is fully aware that her decisions are killing people she just lies about it and does it anyway. I was deliberately unkind to Joyce to make a point -- but she could never be as despicable as the man who believes in nothing, while instructing others to make sure that prices do not go down. Joyce doesn't have to be in Martinaise. Somewhere down under the layers of cultivated boardroom affect, she felt the need to do something about her mistakes. She could have read about this in the newspaper (if it made the paper.) Like any good character, she is complex. If you are wondering how Sunday Friend is complex, he is complex in how completely awful he is.
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Nov 7, 2022 18:37
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Sunday friend doesn't believe his own bullshit either, that front is just how he powertrips. He's doing the same lie to your face shtick evrart does. If there is one person ultimately responsible for all the deaths at the tribunal, it's evrart. Why is he pushing to own the whole terminal now anyway?
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Nov 7, 2022 18:38
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I think it's the person who hired the war crime mercenaries in the first place, personally
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Nov 7, 2022 18:39
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Cpt_Obvious posted:What wealth do you imagine Evrarte has? He lives in a shipping container ffs. He doesn't even deny being corrupt when you talk to him about it. Orange Devil posted:Yeah when I'm looking at Evrart and Joyce, it's Evrart who lines his own pockets and undermines democracy the most, and delivers material improvements for common folk the least. You buffoon. Evart doesn't magically become a good option just because there's someone worse out there. I can't loving stand this "well we've got it slightly better than the worst, that means that the situation is all good" mentality.
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Nov 7, 2022 18:40
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It's very weird that people seem to believe that neither the mercenaries nor the people responsible for sending them are in any way responsible for the deaths they cause.
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Nov 7, 2022 18:40
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Cpt_Obvious posted:It's very weird that people seem to believe that neither the mercenaries nor the people responsible for sending them are in any way responsible for the deaths they cause. Has anyone in here actually said that or are you just really into fighting windmills?
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Nov 7, 2022 18:41
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reading a bunch of voices making different arguments on a screen
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Nov 7, 2022 18:43
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Sunday friend doesn't believe his own bullshit either, that front is just how he powertrips. He's doing the same lie to your face shtick evrart does. extremely unlikely. even disregarding how none of your skills chime in on it, the whole point of the man is that he’s a perfect representative of moralist ideology, ie a living PowerPoint presentation who speaks and thinks in incrementalist jargon
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Nov 7, 2022 18:43
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Anybody who couldn't best Evrart wasn't going to ever best Wild Pines so the absolute upper limit of anything they could promise, much less deliver, is the Martinaise where our intrepid hero first awakes. The setting is after the people who ultimately decided to maintain their personal dignity while eating a big bowl of poo poo did just that, it's why they're non-factors or now working for Wild Pines.
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Nov 7, 2022 18:43
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Oxxidation posted:extremely unlikely. even disregarding how none of your skills chime in on it, the whole point of the man is that he’s a perfect representative of moralist ideology, ie a living PowerPoint presentation who speaks and thinks in incrementalist jargon Once he gets going he can't even hear you talk to him until he's Finished His Presentation.
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Nov 7, 2022 18:45
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No Dignity posted:I think it's the person who hired the war crime mercenaries in the first place, personally Once he took the terminal and ended negotiations, violence was inevitable. Joyce is responsible for the form that violence took but she is not the sole cause; violent capitalist reaction was entirely predictable.
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Nov 7, 2022 18:53
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^I don't understand this line of thinking at all. If you're going to go through the lens of personal choice, why are Joyce's dismissed?wiegieman posted:I was deliberately unkind to Joyce to make a point -- but she could never be as despicable as the man who believes in nothing, while instructing others to make sure that prices do not go down. I would say that her complexities make her more despicable. She can leave at any time, she can call the whole thing off, she can just give the people of martinaise their freedom and their dignity and retire on a scrooge money pit. As majority stakeholder of Wild Pines, it is within her power to make those decisions and nobody would be able to defy her. In fact, she dreams of doing so. So all her hand-wringing and whiny "oh! but what is to be done!?" is more hollow than Sunday Friend's soul. Her empathy is meaningless. She knows exactly what the right thing to do is, she has every power to do it, and yet she doesn't. Why? Pride? Greed? Stubborness? Years of moralist brain washing? Does it even matter?
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Nov 7, 2022 18:54
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wiegieman posted:Once he gets going he can't even hear you talk to him until he's Finished His Presentation. But ze price stabilité!
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Nov 7, 2022 18:55
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Once he took the terminal and ended negotiations, violence was inevitable. Joyce is responsible for the form that violence took but she is not the sole cause; violent capitalist reaction was entirely predictable. Is she? I might have missed something but as far as I remember she said that she explicitly didn't want mercenary intervention but The Board chose to do otherwise. Assuming that she wasn't lying, obviously.
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Nov 7, 2022 18:56
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Jack Trades posted:Is she? I might have missed something but as far as I remember she said that she explicitly didn't want mercenary intervention but The Board chose to do otherwise. If you question her long enough you find out she actually owns >50% of Wild Pine stocks, meaning she can overrule the board.
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Nov 7, 2022 18:57
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Cpt_Obvious posted:If you question her long enough you find out she actually owns >50% of Wild Pine stocks, meaning she can overrule the board. she cannot in fact do this and we went into detail on the reasons months ago, please actually try to engage with the text and not just the parts that appeal to your self-righteousness
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Nov 7, 2022 18:58
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Cpt_Obvious posted:she can call the whole thing off She explicitly tried to call the whole thing off, and couldn't. For all her power (and she has a lot), you're somehow managing to assign her even more than she actually possesses.
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Nov 7, 2022 18:59
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One of the most common attacks on the union is that it's not democratic, which well firstly we don't know that's the case. We aren't a member, we don't know how it works, and pretty much everybody involved in the union tells us straight to our face that we're just a pawn to them. Secondly, even if this is true, it's not like Wild Pines is offering it either. In fact they've held sway over the area for decades, so look around and see what they have to offer. So if neither are offering a proper liberal democracy with privately funded parties and a privately run media like we associate with the term here, which is the most representative and responsive institution to the people living there and membership of the union itself? The anarchists, liberals, and social democrats aren't erased necessarily, they're just there representing the side they most agree with and the ones who represent the "opting out of all the messy stuff, just trying to keep on keeping on" are the drunks, Rene, and dice maker. Interesting, but ultimately non-factors.
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Nov 7, 2022 19:05
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Cpt_Obvious posted:^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^I don't understand this line of thinking at all. If you're going to go through the lens of personal choice, why are Joyce's dismissed? Joyce's choices aren't dismissable, they're just separate and distinct. Everyone has responsibility and everyone is guilty (including Harry, who pissed away three days he didn't have). But Evrart lit the match that started the fire. That doesn't excuse anyone else. It just means we can't excuse Evrart either.
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Nov 7, 2022 19:07
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Epic High Five posted:One of the most common attacks on the union is that it's not democratic, which well firstly we don't know that's the case. We aren't a member, we don't know how it works, and pretty much everybody involved in the union tells us straight to our face that we're just a pawn to them. We know that the one person that tried to get elected democratically into Edgar's and Evrart's position got disappeared.
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Nov 7, 2022 19:07
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Jack Trades posted:We know that the one person that tried to get elected democratically into Edgar's and Evrart's position got disappeared. you’re getting two separate incidents mixed up. the Claires arranged for their predecessor to be assassinated and held the seat since by trading places on the big chair. they dismissed the prior Wild Pines negotiator, not disappeared, because they wanted Joyce to arrive and get caught in the post-hanging firestorm
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Nov 7, 2022 19:14
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Alchenar posted:The game is clear the Communists were very murder happy and war crimey, which is part of why the rest of the world forms an alliance to crush them. Huh? I don't remember this at all.
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Nov 7, 2022 19:17
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Joyce's choices aren't dismissable, they're just separate and distinct. Everyone has responsibility and everyone is guilty (including Harry, who pissed away three days he didn't have). I would argue Evrart's greatest sin is less seizing the harbor itself, a cool and good thing to do, but more directly explicitly planning on getting a shitload of his own people killed in the reprisal. I wouldn't consider the latter a forgone conclusion of the former. Sardonik fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Nov 7, 2022 |
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Nov 7, 2022 19:18
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Staltran posted:Huh? I don't remember this at all. When you discuss the revolution with Joyce she mentioned that the communists shot a lot of people in the head (I forgot the number, but I think it's in the hundred of thousands, and the Coalition came in and shot millions). I don't know if these head shooting were the result of there being a huge civil war lasting years or the post revolution execution. I suppose there's might be at least some for the latter, as we get a glimpse of the execution site behind the Feld building.
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Nov 7, 2022 19:24
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It is absolutely fascinating to see (in my opinion correctly) that the Union is better than Wild Pines and then twist everything else into making Evrart and his methods actually good, and Joyce is an irredeemable monster. The institutions may be good and evil, but the people are not so simple. In particular I want to point out that Evrart will absolutely gently caress over the poor people next to his "community center". He's not trying to make life better for the poor and dispossessed in general, he's trying to make life better for the Union. Those people are not Union people. Sure, they're free to join the union if they want. Evrart isn't a monster. But if they don't join they'll be ground under his heel until they're driven out of this community. If they're simply poor and dispossessed outside of Martinaise, he would be fine with it. Just like he exports the drug problem to neighboring communities with a smile on his face. His ambition is to make Martinaise a strong Union town, not to uplift humanity. I still want to see where his path takes Martinaise, because we're already living in the world where Wild Pines gets their way every time, but calling out Evrart is something the game definitely encourages you to do. Even if you think his hard line brutality is actually necessary, it's at best a necessary evil. Calling him out on it is reasonable.
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Nov 7, 2022 19:29
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Jack Trades posted:We know that the one person that tried to get elected democratically into Edgar's and Evrart's position got disappeared. The person who was dismissed was the last negotiator, who everybody seems to have at least liked on a personal level but ultimately had no role to play because his was the faction that was just offering more of the same. The one who was actually assassinated was the previous leader who was democratically elected, same as Evrart, so yes the only institution involved where the people of Martinaise have a direct say is the union. You can say it's tainted and you'd be right, but it's still more than Wild Pines has ever offered and its not like their response to losing their leverage was less psychotic than Evrart's. Whether it's a proper democracy or not will depend on who is asked because political legitimacy is a personal question informed by someone's relation to it far, far more than anything you'd find in a dictionary.
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Nov 7, 2022 19:31
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Jack Trades posted:Has anyone in here actually said that or are you just really into fighting windmills? Absolutely no one has said what’s he arguing against, I’m personally not making any value judgements of who is righter or wronger here just saying Evrart sucks and he absolutely corrupts any notion the dockworkers union isn’t a mob. Which the game makes explicitly clear multiple times even outside of Joyce’s biased points of view. Sardonik posted:I would argue Evart's greatest sin is less seizing the harbor itself, a cool and good thing to do, but more directly explicitly planning on getting a shitload of his own people killed in the reprisal. I wouldn't consider the latter a forgone conclusion of the former. I think this bears repeating. He didn’t have to approve staging the lynching or politicize it. Although this really comes back to Klaasje ultimately anyways, she made it all possible
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Nov 7, 2022 19:36
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I think trying to tie the massacre down to the personal culpability of a single party is kind of missing the point anyway, as a violent confrontation between labour and capital of some kind was inevitable given the situation and the individuals involved just informed the specific shape the clash took
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Nov 7, 2022 19:41
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