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mobby_6kl posted:Yeah I'm sure someone is keeping track, but by the time soviet stockpiles do run out, it would be too late to start training and setting up logistics. Which is why The point of keeping track is knowing when they will run out, so that they can start training on other stuff at the appropriate time. Assuming the people in charge of this stuff are incompetent and don't understand their jobs is sometimes right, but a bad way to bet.
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Nov 14, 2022 19:24
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Hasn't Russia and/or China gotten their hands on an export version of the Abrams via Iraq already?
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Nov 14, 2022 19:24
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mobby_6kl posted:That can't possibly be it, can it? The moment we run out of soviet era junk, that's it, Putin gets to walk into Kyiv? Sure and when that pilot gets deployed after 18 months they go to a squadron with a complete and experienced staff, an experienced flight lead, a full set of trained and experienced maintainers and other ground crew, working with controllers who are used to their equipment and it’s capabilities. I agree that at some point you have to pull the trigger on a NATO transition but every maintainer you pull off the line to learn how to fix an Abrams or F16 is a guy who isn’t fixing BMPs and Su-25s that are critical to the war effort right now. Plus, for ground vehicles it certainly appears that the UAF is offsetting quite a few losses through Russian equipment capture and refurbishment.
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Nov 14, 2022 19:26
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Kraftwerk posted:They should just start the training anyway, rotate out small amounts of soldiers or recruit some volunteers to go to Poland or the US to learn how to maintain and look after western platforms like Abrams or F-16 and then if they happen to come in handy 9 months later, great otherwise you now have a fancy new deterrent if the war stops and Russia thinks about trying this again. It's win-win no matter what happens unless Ukraine can't spare the men. But in this case a long-term play like this could be done with just new recruits who don't have experience yet. They probably have to unlearn some soviet era habits anyway. Haven't stories already come out about small groups of Ukrainians receiving NATO weapons training? It has almost been 9 months, there are probably a few F-16 ready pilots who are flying Migs until the time comes.
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Nov 14, 2022 19:52
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I doubt they would let their F-16 trained pilots both take the risk and switch back to their old machines. If there are Ukrainian pilots training somewhere in NATO countries and then they will stay there until the machines clear the border. The other thing is maintenance crews, unless airbase crews suddenly start talking with weird westerner Ukrainan accent that uninitiated would mistake for Polish..
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Nov 14, 2022 20:00
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alex314 posted:I doubt they would let their F-16 trained pilots both take the risk and switch back to their old machines. If there are Ukrainian pilots training somewhere in NATO countries and then they will stay there until the machines clear the border. Half the Russians assume proper Ukrainian is Polish anyway.
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Nov 14, 2022 20:02
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It may be that Ukraine doesn't have a pressing need for aircraft right now. Russia's air force is massive compared to Ukraine's they are not going to win air supremacy with a few dozen F-16. Ukraine has already done a fantastic job mostly neutralizing the RuAF with ground based air defenses but Russia also has a lot of that on their side which means neither side really has much ground attack capability except for long range stand off munitions which are very expensive and in limited supply (at least for Russia).
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Nov 14, 2022 20:03
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Pilots were just an example of what I'd assume one of the more most training-intensive roles. Same would go for e.g. Patriot operators, Deteriorata posted:The point of keeping track is knowing when they will run out, so that they can start training on other stuff at the appropriate time.
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Nov 14, 2022 20:10
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The time spent training a tank crew who can operate a T-72 today on the battlefield to operate a piece of equipment that they may never actually use is also potentially a waste. That crew could be in the field crewing a T-72 and actually accomplishing something short term useful for the UAF. Training isn't a frictionless and costless thing for the Ukrainians even if NATO is providing it gratis.
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Nov 14, 2022 20:19
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The X-man cometh posted:Haven't stories already come out about small groups of Ukrainians receiving NATO weapons training? It has almost been 9 months, there are probably a few F-16 ready pilots who are flying Migs until the time comes. No. There was lot of talk about talking about sending pilots and mechanics to the US for F-16 training and familiarization but if it was done it's being kept a strict secret. It's all been half measures so far like sending inoperable Migs to Ukraine for parts to get their existing migs running or some former Warsaw pact airframes sent instead. The closest they've come to any kind of change is jury rigging HARM missiles to the mig platform. I'm no diplomat but unless Ukraine can credibly build a powerful military capable of securing all of its pre 2014 borders and discouraging any further Russian attacks there will never be peace. There are no "negotiations" with the Russians that won't result in Ukraine being hosed over entirely. The price Ukraine has paid just to accept a treaty where Russia STILL occupies more Ukrainian land than they started with in Feb 2022 is still a victory for Russia and a crippling loss for Ukraine given how much they paid in lives. You might as well replay the Finnish Winter War and Continuation war all over again. This war doesn't end until Ukraine ejects the Russian military from within its borders and if the west starves Ukraine of modern weapons capable of providing the force multipliers necessary for Ukraine to offset their manpower and material disadvantages then the resulting peace (if any) will be bitter and resented by both sides. The last thing we want to do is hang Ukraine out to dry because that's how you get stab in the back myths and treaty of Versailles style bullshit that fuels right wing revanchism. As pro-democracy and pro-western as Ukraine is today it can very easily tilt in the opposite direction if they felt the West did gently caress all for them. Maybe they won't embrace Putin as father protector, but they can very easily turn against us when we left them hanging in their hour of need. It would be a PR disaster for "western values" and "democracy" if we can't even fight to defend it in a country that drank the kool-aid hook line and sinker. We don't even have to fight. We just pay out a bonus to the military industrial complex which we do ANYWAY and Ukraine will do the fighting for us. It's a loving sweetheart deal to take a major geopolitical enemy off the chessboard and basically "win" the Cold War 1.5 so we can free up our attention to fight Cold War 2.0 with China. Ukraine is the victim of a genocide right on Europe's doorstep. Just because Russia hasn't built a scientifically managed railway and factory infrastructure to massacre Ukrainians and delete their culture does not mean crimes against humanity have not taken place or should be ignored. That alone required some level of accountability in Russia and international condemnation and indemnification of the Russian government to right the wrongs committed. Failing that the bare minimum is the full restoration of all Ukrainian territory including the Crimea. Anything less is an affront to humanity. Kraftwerk fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Nov 14, 2022 |
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Nov 14, 2022 20:20
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mobby_6kl posted:Pilots were just an example of what I'd assume one of the more most training-intensive roles. Same would go for e.g. Patriot operators, My take on the article was that it's standard WSJ clickbait. A lot of "maybe," "might," and "could" without any real substance.
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Nov 14, 2022 20:40
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I too sometimes wonder why the west isn't doing some things differently in regards to helping Ukraine. Like the aforementioned lack of supplying and training of western aircraft and armor. But then I remind myself that actual experts on this subject are involved in the planning process and this is the course they have decided to go on so I have to assume it's probably the correct way to go.
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Nov 14, 2022 20:43
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Charliegrs posted:I too sometimes wonder why the west isn't doing some things differently in regards to helping Ukraine. Like the aforementioned lack of supplying and training of western aircraft and armor. But then I remind myself that actual experts on this subject are involved in the planning process and this is the course they have decided to go on so I have to assume it's probably the correct way to go. A lot of "experts" got us into this mess with their behavior in 2014/15; thankfully the current set only partially overlaps the previous one.
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Nov 14, 2022 20:56
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Charliegrs posted:I too sometimes wonder why the west isn't doing some things differently in regards to helping Ukraine. Like the aforementioned lack of supplying and training of western aircraft and armor. But then I remind myself that actual experts on this subject are involved in the planning process and this is the course they have decided to go on so I have to assume it's probably the correct way to go. Enough, but not too much to escalate, at least not faster than how Russia is escalating, to contain the war in the Ukrainian soil.
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Nov 14, 2022 20:59
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thats loving bleak. a friend of mine on discord put it like this. russia is playing chess and they know they will lose and should just concede the game but instead they will play a long pawn game as long as possible instead of facing reality.
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Nov 14, 2022 22:00
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Feels like there's a big misinformation campaign going on in the south near Kherson. I don't believe any of these rumours but this sudden uptick in crazy reports may indicate that they're trying to drown something significant out with noise https://twitter.com/WarMonitor3/status/1592259355663302656 https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1592220614290714624 https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1592199509152759808
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Nov 14, 2022 22:02
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Yeah, this feels like a slight-of-hand trick to draw attention away from elsewhere. The goal is probably to get Russia to bundle up a bunch of equipment and start shipping it west, so that it's not available when Ukraine attacks at Kam'yans'ke or someplace.
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Nov 14, 2022 22:08
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Yeah, Russia's just decided they can dragoon foreigners into their military now. https://twitter.com/MrbamNews/status/1592165273280430083
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Nov 14, 2022 22:46
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Not that anything is deserved, but I’m a bit curious what a nuclear engineering student was serving a 9 year sentence for.
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Nov 14, 2022 22:53
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Flappy Bert posted:Not that anything is deserved, but I’m a bit curious what a nuclear engineering student was serving a 9 year sentence for. drugs. but you can get 9 years for something many/most goons smoke every friday
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Nov 14, 2022 22:59
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i'd be really surprised if some ukrainians haven't been training western tank and plane stuff for months already in some nato country
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Nov 14, 2022 23:01
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Flappy Bert posted:Not that anything is deserved, but I’m a bit curious what a nuclear engineering student was serving a 9 year sentence for. Probably drugs while being African.
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Nov 14, 2022 23:03
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Wonder how many of these stories it would take to dent Russia's reputation in Africa as the anticolonialist crusader and savior of the global south.
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Nov 14, 2022 23:08
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Yeah, Russia's just decided they can dragoon foreigners into their military now. Not what it means at all. At least for now.
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Nov 14, 2022 23:18
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I remember there were a few Americans that went to fight for the DPR/LPR rebels during 2014-15. I remember one weird Texan in particular went over there so he could fight "fascists". Are there any Americans that have gone over to fight with the Russians since this war started? I would imagine at least a few chuds would do it if given the opportunity.
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Nov 14, 2022 23:24
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Flappy Bert posted:Not that anything is deserved, but I’m a bit curious what a nuclear engineering student was serving a 9 year sentence for. Britney Griner got the same sentence for 700mg of cannabis oil so it could very well be something incredibly minor
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Nov 14, 2022 23:29
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Charliegrs posted:I remember there were a few Americans that went to fight for the DPR/LPR rebels during 2014-15. I remember one weird Texan in particular went over there so he could fight "fascists". Are there any Americans that have gone over to fight with the Russians since this war started? I would imagine at least a few chuds would do it if given the opportunity. That piece of poo poo is still there, by the way. https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/russell-texas-bentley-putin-propaganda-ukraine-interview-1315433/
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Nov 14, 2022 23:30
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Edit: ^^^ answered before I even got it typed upCharliegrs posted:I remember there were a few Americans that went to fight for the DPR/LPR rebels during 2014-15. I remember one weird Texan in particular went over there so he could fight "fascists". Are there any Americans that have gone over to fight with the Russians since this war started? I would imagine at least a few chuds would do it if given the opportunity. I think that despite the rhetoric you get out of Trump, Fox News pundits and Alex Jones, the right is still mostly on the side of Ukraine. Didn't Trump even walk back his pro-Russia nonsense after he felt which way the wind was blowing? Hopefully, this translates into very few to none heading over there, but who knows. Do you have an article on the thing you're talking about?
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Nov 14, 2022 23:31
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Paladinus posted:Not what it means at all. At least for now. Glad to hear that, actually.
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Nov 14, 2022 23:33
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Zelensky done a cool move by visiting Kherson. 1. Slap in the face to bullshit acession referendi 2. Once again visual difference from bunker-dwellers
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Nov 14, 2022 23:37
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Charliegrs posted:I remember there were a few Americans that went to fight for the DPR/LPR rebels during 2014-15. I remember one weird Texan in particular went over there so he could fight "fascists". Are there any Americans that have gone over to fight with the Russians since this war started? I would imagine at least a few chuds would do it if given the opportunity. Haven't seen any orbituaries. The weirdest oddball was some Irish guy fighting for LPR getting decapitated by a 120 mm mortar in Rubizhne back in March
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Nov 14, 2022 23:40
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Sekenr posted:Zelensky done a cool move by visiting Kherson. It's insanely historic having the country's leader show up in a liberated city within a day or 2 of enemy forces leaving. Like liberation of France historic. This guy was an actor a few years ago and now he's a permanent fixture of history textbooks.
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Nov 15, 2022 00:01
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Dumb question, with all of his public appearances why doesn't Putin just send a suicidal bomb drone?
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Nov 15, 2022 00:11
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Dumb question, with all of his public appearances why doesn't Putin just send a suicidal bomb drone? They’re publicised only after the fact, and in a deliberate manner. It would also be a bit counterproductive to Russia’s current messaging about the war to just take him out like that.
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Nov 15, 2022 00:13
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Dumb question, with all of his public appearances why doesn't Putin just send a suicidal bomb drone? I imagine videos of Zelenskyy, even from Kyiv, are only sent out after he has left the area. The war started with assassin squads trying to kill him and his family in Kyiv, and Ukrainian security services kept him safe. There's probably over a thousand people working to keep him safe these days.
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Nov 15, 2022 00:15
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the holy poopacy posted:Wonder how many of these stories it would take to dent Russia's reputation in Africa as the anticolonialist crusader and savior of the global south. "I'm very concerned," says the bought-and-paid-for African head of state as he gets into his private jet for a Paris shopping trip. As for Zelensky and another reason why he's still alive, I've never seen a live interview with him last for longer than 30 minutes or less. BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Nov 15, 2022 |
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Nov 15, 2022 00:24
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And even if Zelensky's appearance was broadcast live, there's a good chance Russia wouldn't be able to react in time. There have been multiple reports that Russian decision making chains for receiving intelligence on targets and then launching air/drone/artillery strikes, take much much longer than Ukrainian ones (and US in Iraq/Afghanistan). Have zero military knowledge and can't recall the precise details (so will happily defer to military goons), but it was something like it takes the Russians a day or more to receive intel, analyse it, make a decision, pass it along, launch the attack, etc, compared to hours in the case of the US/NATO, etc (the attack on the convoy in Libya that led to the death of Gaddafi comes to mind).
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Nov 15, 2022 00:26
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I also agree that to an extent Russian propaganda has made it harder to kill him. He's been built up to be a cross between Adolf Hitler and Satan, tricking the Little Brother Ukranians in to fighting their own kind! If you kill him, and Ukraine keeps fighting, and you further unify Ukrainian resistance while making him a martyr, what then? (Probably the normal Russian propaganda answer of "ignore everything you said before and abruptly change course" but the average Russian has to start asking some more questions at that point, I'd think)
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Nov 15, 2022 00:26
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:the average Russian has to start asking some more questions at that point, I'd think that doesn't sound very healthy to me
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Nov 15, 2022 00:39
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Orthanc6 posted:It's insanely historic having the country's leader show up in a liberated city within a day or 2 of enemy forces leaving. Like liberation of France historic. This guy was an actor a few years ago and now he's a permanent fixture of history textbooks. His appearance is indeed historic as gently caress. It just blows my mind how Zelensky the actor does so well as wartime president while Zaluzhny the general is somehow so good at war he just wins and wins wtf?
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Nov 15, 2022 01:06
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