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The vision quest provides some context. The moralintern state that one of their core policies is mutually assured destruction. They also explicitly state that they practice mass surveillance to such a degree that they have a file for each individual in Revachol. Trent and Sunday friend refuse to give a timeline for Revachol’s integration and laugh off the idea of other countries joining.
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Dec 19, 2022 07:54
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To me Kim doesn't read so much as a moralist because the ideals are appealing to him as much as he's de facto a moralist because that's the political system in place. He believes in his job and the things he can do directly. I wouldn't even call that incremental change necessarily because I don't think it's about gradual improvement -- it's about scope, the scope of one man.
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Dec 19, 2022 08:06
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Eiba posted:If you select the dialog options like "let's make things a little bit better one step at a time!" you get moralist points. Is that ever a dialogue option? I remember a lot of "I bet the truth is in the middle" but no call to action. Granted, our boy Harry's real bad at politics. His version of communism is being a tankie, his version of liberalism is the hustle grindset, his version of nationalism is crushing sexism with some racism for flavor. So substituting endless discussion for actual work would be very on brand for that alcoholic trash fire.
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Dec 19, 2022 08:32
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Fruits of the sea posted:They also explicitly state that they practice mass surveillance to such a degree that they have a file for each individual in Revachol. How does that even work in Martinaise? Most people don't even have a phone to tap, and I don't see an East Germany-style system of mass informants working there, or at least we never meet one, possibly apart from Gary.
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Dec 19, 2022 10:52
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I feel like the argument whether Kim is a moralist or not is sort of a dead end when the devs have openly referred to him as a representative of Moralism:quote:MORALISM In my view, he's a moralist in a loose sense: he wants to preserve order in Martinaise, dislikes extremism and thinks of himself as an apolitical person. That doesn't necessarily translate to personal support of the Moralintern, but he thinks of their dominance as a fact that he or anyone else can't do anything about to change. Then again, he thought the Insulindian Phasmid was a myth.
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Dec 19, 2022 11:06
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I mean Kim is not a very good person so this checks out. He is a nice person, however. Also all this talk about the moralist options being reasonable reminder me of reading about people who were in the resistance in western europe in ww2. They often were described as the unreasonable and not necessarely very nice people by their contemporaries even before the war. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 11:50 on Dec 19, 2022 |
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Dec 19, 2022 11:48
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Moralism is Centrism. The game is absolutely clear about that. And ultraliberalism is their version of neoliberalism or libertarianism. I know many people can not imagine that there is a difference between people who oppose any change to the status quo no matter what it is and people who would want to create the current system if it didn't already exist. Disco Elysium is one of the few pieces of fiction where that difference is treated as very meaningful.
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Dec 19, 2022 15:02
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Orange Devil posted:I mean Kim is not a very good person so this checks out. Not to get too personal here, but having been at the mercy of random strangers to save my life a time or two, I think Kim (of all the people in this game) is someone I'd want in the crowd. Surely that qualifies as some kind of good.
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Dec 19, 2022 16:19
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Kim is a Moralist disappointed with Moralism. But not disappointed enough to support change or even change his own lifestyle from his Moralist career. The same connection that Joyce has to ultra-liberalism. Leading to them both officially supporting nothing. Which is why they are both so appealing to the irony-poisoned who would never support anything.
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Dec 19, 2022 16:26
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Orange Devil posted:I mean Kim is not a very good person so this checks out. If Kim isn't a good person, who (in the game) is?
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Dec 19, 2022 16:40
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Kim is a person just trying to make the world around him a slightly better place to the extent he realistically can. He's the non-cynical expression of 'incremental change, yeah!'. Harry is also that if you want to play him as an uncomplicated cop.
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Dec 19, 2022 16:51
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I have found it extremely interesting that there's no in-game representative for anarchism as a political position. I think the only character who comes close to that is Cindy the SKULL? Maybe the devs are just above being completely political-compass-brained though.
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Dec 19, 2022 16:53
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Youremother posted:I have found it extremely interesting that there's no in-game representative for anarchism as a political position. I think the only character who comes close to that is Cindy the SKULL? Maybe the devs are just above being completely political-compass-brained though. Joke by communist authors. As Joyce explains it, the anarchists didn't just get shot, they were extremely shot.
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Dec 19, 2022 17:02
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Eiba posted:The social safety net is for the metropole. Revachol is the third world country that doesn't have its act together. That doesn't mean Moralism doesn't view the welfare state as an effective strategy. If only Revachol had been less radical, the Moralintern might lament, it might be able to support its own welfare state. Moralism does view the welfare state as an effective strategy to prevent unrest that could threaten their control. It also views airships in position to carpet bomb Revachol as an effective strategy to do that. It's also cheaper than a welfare state, so it's what they do. It is currently not viable to do that in the heart of the moralintern—but if it was they would do it there too. Means of social control are always developed in the periphery before being brought home. (Not that Revachol was peripheral before the coalition attacked it, of course.) Eiba posted:I feel like you're mistaking what they do for what they believe. Or else confusing Moralism with the Moralintern. The fact that they behave just as brutally as anything else is kind of the point. I'd say you're mistaking propaganda for what they actually believe.
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Dec 19, 2022 17:08
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Sierra Madre posted:I feel like the argument whether Kim is a moralist or not is sort of a dead end when the devs have openly referred to him as a representative of Moralism: It makes perfect sense he thought the Phasmid is a myth. The Phasmid symbolically represents the potential for revolution, an impossible miracle that could herald meaningful change. That is antithetical to his moralist leanings. Though I still maintain Kim is a moralist in the sense of the default, 'negative' moralism imposed systemically. Rather than the 'positive' moralists like Sunday Friend who genuinely believe in the project.
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Dec 19, 2022 17:22
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VictualSquid posted:In case someone isn't following them, Sea Power is putting out some disco videos. Thank you for this.
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Dec 19, 2022 18:13
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Moralism maps pretty exactly to real life center leftism in the west: supporting all the policies and structures of contemporary power and their resulting injustices, but feeling bad about it. and so long as you feel bad about it you’re still a good person. Incremental change in disco elysium, just like our reality, is a fairy tale to feel less bad. Hot take I guess but that’s my interpretation
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Dec 19, 2022 19:31
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Kim would probably be a good moralist if he didn't have to keep himself housed and fed by dealing with its failures. Sunday Friend and Joyce are there as sex/lecturing the proles tourist and observer, Kim actually has to live in it and keeping the line gets harder every day. It's a position a lot of people find themselves in and "It was either radicalize or go insane from rhetoric not matching reality" is a pretty common "how did you become a commie/fash" origin story Ultraliberalism always felt like just straight up Libertarianism to me. I don't think Moralism is center left because I don't think the game sees much difference between the center and center left in the context of Revachol. You're one or the other and which it is depends on how you act.
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Dec 19, 2022 20:11
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Epic High Five posted:sees much difference between the center and center left in the context of Revachol. There as in reality, is my take. Moralism and actual center leftism in the west is the rhetoric of “we’ll work to make it better” coupled with the actions of affirmatively supporting all the power structures (imf, western foreign policy, billionaires, capitalism, privatization) that impede any sort of incremental progress, and in fact work for incremental regression. I see moralism as a pretty direct take down of the western liberalism.
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Dec 19, 2022 20:49
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Staltran posted:Moralism does view the welfare state as an effective strategy to prevent unrest that could threaten their control. It also views airships in position to carpet bomb Revachol as an effective strategy to do that. It's also cheaper than a welfare state, so it's what they do. It is currently not viable to do that in the heart of the moralintern—but if it was they would do it there too. Means of social control are always developed in the periphery before being brought home. (Not that Revachol was peripheral before the coalition attacked it, of course.) Discounting what they say as mere propaganda misses the point. Imagine they actually believe what they're saying and still find it reasonable to employ airships as an unfortunate necessity. The world isn't full of people plotting oppressive systems of control. It's full of well meaning and apathetic people who find establishing oppressive systems of control to be the path of least resistance. That is so much worse. Saying Moralism is just another flavor of Fascism, just one that overly lies to manipulate you, misses what's really horrible about it, and by extension elements of the real world. Epic High Five posted:I don't think Moralism is center left because I don't think the game sees much difference between the center and center left in the context of Revachol. You're one or the other and which it is depends on how you act. It's interesting from a US perspective because it almost comes off as aspirational. Wouldn't it be nice if living in the imperial center were more comfortable. But it's ultimately a scathing condemnation of all that.
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Dec 19, 2022 20:51
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the final cut shivers voice actor doesn't know the melody of "where the hood at"
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Dec 19, 2022 21:30
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Sardonik posted:It makes perfect sense he thought the Phasmid is a myth. The Phasmid symbolically represents the potential for revolution, an impossible miracle that could herald meaningful change. That is antithetical to his moralist leanings. I would refine that symbol further: the Phasmid is the successful revolution, the victory over the Coalition. Revachol already experienced one revolution and it was a cataclysmic failure - in this world, revolution is a fact, and it is their success that's seen as the impossibility that I think the Phasmid represents. What's interesting is that this interpretation is not flattering for Kim. He only believes in the Phasmid when he's looking directly at it, and refuses to entertain the possibility that it exists, because his understanding of the world does not include tall stick insects unfolding from the reeds. We may extend that also to a successful revolution in Revachol. In my view, Kim would be a counter-revolutionary out of fear and cynicism. He's seen the after-effects of actually existing revolutions, and as far as he's convinced all it amounts to are bombed-out ruins and dead parents. As long as any doubts still linger in his mind, he will default to what he thinks is the logical conclusion, backed by history and reality, and that will lead him towards siding with the Coalition. The Phasmid shows he could be a revolutionary, and he certainly has an interest in the aesthetics of revolution, but you would need to show him that all this struggle and bloodshed would be successful in the end - and that's going to be a tough sell for Kim Kitsuragi, who seems to dislike dangerous speculation and only believes in things that he knows (or believes) to be real.
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Dec 19, 2022 21:44
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Sierra Madre posted:
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Dec 19, 2022 22:56
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Sardonik posted:Though I still maintain Kim is a moralist in the sense of the default, 'negative' moralism imposed systemically. Rather than the 'positive' moralists like Sunday Friend who genuinely believe in the project. The harm from ideologies might be from their universalization. Kim as a moralist isn’t awful. Moralism universalized as the theonomous ruling ideology is monstrous and Sunday Friend is a representative of that. The difference is: I run my life by these principles. Vs The world is organized around and in support of these principles. All the ideologies were “shooting people in the head” during the war.
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Dec 20, 2022 00:18
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Kim fights at the tribunal. He will say the communist thing when the time comes because he won’t say the fascist thing and he’s already decided to not gently caress off.
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Dec 20, 2022 00:20
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Kim fights at the tribunal. He will say the communist thing when the time comes because he won’t say the fascist thing and he’s already decided to not gently caress off. Kim shushes Harry at the tribunal, taking account of the situation. Not rushing in and not making things worse most of all. This isn't someone who is cynical, he says "My plan is not to get killed. But we have to intervene." This is the soul of the Revochal People's Militia. Like the end slide said about my first play through with Harry, "When the time comes, he will side with the people." Both Kim and Harry have done so already.
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Dec 20, 2022 00:40
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 Bar Ran Dun posted:Kim fights at the tribunal. He will say the communist thing when the time comes because he won’t say the fascist thing and he’s already decided to not gently caress off. Kim fights at the tribunal because it's necessary to maintain order in Martinaise; that's his job, and he does his job well and in accordance with Moralist precepts. A revolution against the people that "legitimise" his job is an entirely different matter. This also reminds me that Harry's assumed to be on the side of Revachol by the hidden revolutionaries regardless of whether he's been saying the communist or fascist thing, so maybe that won't matter. I wonder if the second revolutionary wave would look like the early Kuomintang - a big tent nationalist movement against the Coalition, albeit one that's guided by leftists descending from the ICM rather than the poo poo-show that was the historical KMT.
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Dec 20, 2022 00:53
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Sierra Madre posted:I would refine that symbol further: [spoiler]the Phasmid is the successful revolution, the victory over the Coalition. Revachol already experienced one revolution and it was a cataclysmic failure - in this world, revolution is a fact, and it is their success that's seen as the impossibility that I think the Phasmid represents. This is kinda neat because Harry's old partners were almost elated at its existence and wanted to publicize it. Was pretty dang weird to be honest but this puts it in a new light.
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Dec 20, 2022 01:12
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Bar Ran Dun posted:The harm from ideologies might be from their universalization. Kim as a moralist isn’t awful. Moralism universalized as the theonomous ruling ideology is monstrous and Sunday Friend is a representative of that. I don't think you can meaningfully separate moralism from its hegemony. Moralism couldn't exist in the form it does without that hegemony, and anything similar to moralism would be massively different.
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Dec 20, 2022 01:49
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I think a central thesis of the game is that taking a politically cowardly stance like “incremental change” means you inherently end up supporting the status quo, and all the brutality that comes with it.
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Dec 20, 2022 01:53
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Fruits of the sea posted:This is kinda neat because Harry's old partners were almost elated at its existence and wanted to publicize it. Was pretty dang weird to be honest but this puts it in a new light. RCM = ICM theory.
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Dec 20, 2022 02:07
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Staltran posted:I don't think you can meaningfully separate moralism from its hegemony. Moralism couldn't exist in the form it does without that hegemony, and anything similar to moralism would be massively different. Another way of thinking about things is that any idea raised to ultimacy is demonic. This is from theology that is based on Hegel’s ideas. Moralism is the ideology that got raised to be the hegemony. As a theonomy it produces itself as the default conclusion. You can separate it as the ideology that is the dominate hegemony from the beliefs of some of the individuals that participate in that ideology. Here’s how: Let’s say Sunday Friend is at the tribunal? Does he interfere? (No) Kim does. That’s a way one differentiates the goats from the sheep.
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Dec 20, 2022 02:09
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Another way of thinking about things is that any idea raised to ultimacy is demonic. This is from theology that is based on Hegel’s ideas. Moralism is the ideology that got raised to be the hegemony. As a theonomy it produces itself as the default conclusion. You can separate it as the ideology that is the dominate hegemony from the beliefs of some of the individuals that participate in that ideology. Or as Mickey Mouse said, "Will You Fight? Or Will You Perish Like a Dog?"
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Dec 20, 2022 02:13
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The Sunday Friend's Encyclopedia is probably so Godly that he would somehow get the mercenaries interested in facts as a way of deescalation([like what your Encyclopedia tries to do]if he participated in the tribunal) IMO
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Dec 20, 2022 02:14
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King Carnivore posted:I think a central thesis of the game is that taking a politically cowardly stance like “incremental change” means you inherently end up supporting the status quo, and all the brutality that comes with it.
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Dec 20, 2022 02:29
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Also on the topic of the Sunday Friend and perhaps Moralism in general:
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Dec 20, 2022 02:32
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EorayMel posted:Also on the topic of the Sunday Friend and perhaps Moralism in general: Never had such a dilemma between 1 and 3.
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Dec 20, 2022 02:59
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:If Kim isn't a good person, who (in the game) is?
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Dec 20, 2022 03:12
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Rogue AI Goddess posted:Dolores Dei. She's a loving weirdo
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Dec 20, 2022 03:13
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She cracked a lot of eggs to make the omelet of modernity
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