Wiring Thread: This stupid safety device started alerting that there wasn't safety!

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corgski: Feb 6, 2007; Silly goose, you're here forever.

n0tqu1tesane posted:

It just seems to be adding an additional point of failure and complication where it isn't needed.

Oh it absolutely is doing that but it's not against code, just absurdly over engineered.

# ? Jan 9, 2023 23:12

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# ? May 11, 2024 17:37

shame on an IGA: Apr 8, 2005

n0tqu1tesane posted:

So you're making 30+ connections between the existing wire and your THHN in the pull box? Why not just land it in the actual breaker box onto the breakers?

It just seems to be adding an additional point of failure and complication where it isn't needed.

My only guess would be concern that the existing romex is too short to reach the new panel?

It still seems like a silly thing to want to do but if he insists on doing the silly thing, DIN rail terminal blocks would be a much better and performatively overbuilt, because that seems to be the goal here, way of doing the silly thing than a rats nest of wagos

# ? Jan 9, 2023 23:13

SyNack Sassimov: May 4, 2006; Let the robot win.
��--Captain James T. Vader

shame on an IGA posted:

My only guess would be concern that the existing romex is too short to reach the new panel?

It still seems like a silly thing to want to do but if he insists on doing the silly thing, DIN rail terminal blocks would be a much better and performatively overbuilt, because that seems to be the goal here, way of doing the silly thing than a rats nest of wagos

Yeah they probably would but aren't they excessively European? This is Amurrica I don't hold truck with no got dang European ...Wagos are European you say? Ah, well, nevertheless

But yes the concern is that the existing Romex is far too short - there's already splices (which frankly look like they're just in-line-twisted-together-and-taped, no wirenuts and I highly doubt it's Western Union splice) in several of the runs in the existing panel and I really would prefer to take those out. The other advantage of this to my mind (especially with Wagos) is that the panel replacement is essentially prewired and the actual install time is thus greatly shortened since it's just running the old NM into the pullbox, stripping ends, connecting the Wagos and grounds into ground bar.

As far as performatively overbuilt, I mean sure, I guess? It's more that I'm sick and tired of how badly everything is done in this house and seemingly California in general, and given that, again, it's not that expensive to overbuild in this case, I'd rather have it be something I never have to worry about again. I currently have FPE panels, i.e. closely related to the ones that set your house on fire, I've already had two cases of outlets scorching due to the lovely 1970s crimp connectors (you know, put two wires next to each other, fold a piece of tin around them and "crimp" with your linemans), and if I'm going to go to all the trouble of replacing all this poo poo I don't want to ever touch it again or be concerned about it burning my house down.

But yes, other than novel length posts here I'm not performing for anyone, I'm not loving posting on social media "look at my electrical panel" or some poo poo, sorry it comes off as performative but that wasn't really the intent.

Anyway I originally didn't want the pullbox and I completely agree that having all those connections is irritating and adding another point of failure, but unless I move the new panel up the wall two feet from where the old panel is I won't have enough slack to connect wires to breakers, and with my goal being to make that particular panel replacement as quick as possible (like, over a weekend) so that I can get the majority of the house powered again once power is run to the new panel, the pullbox seemed like the best choice. I'm completely open to suggestions if someone has them as to how to change that without moving the new panel up or taking a long time to replace the old panel.

edit: since I didn't make it clear, even with all this performative overbuilding the parts and various tools have still cost me slightly less than just the amount I will be paying someone to hand-dig a 40 foot long x 4 foot deep trench and run conduit through it, never mind the rest of the work. DIY wasn't actually my original plan back in 2015 - I got bids from electricians, and where the Internet said "an electrician will charge 2 to 4 thousand dollars for this panel replacement and a few hundred dollars for 12 circuits", the cheapest bid I got for all that work was twenty-two thousand dollars, which did not include A) the 40 foot trench or B) replacing the existing garage subpanel. (One bid was $7k just to replace the main panel, literally just hang the new CSED on the wall outside). Perhaps people are not familiar with how stupid trades pricing is in the Bay Area...

SyNack Sassimov fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Jan 10, 2023

# ? Jan 10, 2023 01:55

devicenull: May 30, 2007; Grimey Drawer

SyNack Sassimov posted:

Edit: this is a long post full of blithering, just so you're warned.

Hello wiring thread! It's me, the guy replacing everything electrical in his 1970s house other than some Romex and a few outlets. I've been working at a speedy pace...for a glacier (pretty sure my first post about this was in 2013), and according to the time-honored equation of "parts = $, my time = $0, spending $themoon on parts makes sense because it's still cheaper than an electrician ", this project involves some overkill - 125A old main panel to new 400A main and assorted other "wtf you don't need that what is you doing" items.

Finally getting to the finish line, and managed to have everything in place for a rough inspection mid-December. And uh, well. Thing is, I'm doing my best to learn and know what I'm doing, and I'm one for details and making sure everything is 100% beyond reproach in correctness, but I'd sort of relied on the idea that at the end of the day the inspector would point out anything horribly wrong and in general verify the major items with me. Inspector showed up, spent 5 minutes looking at my plans, walked out to the main panel, looked it over for about 5 minutes, asked I think two questions, marvelled at the fact I'd used Cadweld for my ground rods (and took a picture "to show the guys"), and then said looks good, wrote "rough inspection passed" on the permit and walked off. He didn't look at the new wiring under the house, at the new outlets in the house, or ask any of the small detailed questions I was expecting or preparing for. For instance the fact that I'd bothered to get a raintight rigid terminal adapter for the old conduit stubbing up in the Christy box I'd put in to reterminate the run to the backyard panel (as opposed to an EMT TA) seemed utterly inconsequential since he barely even looked in the box (now that I think about it, he never looked at the new backyard panel either). I mention that part specifically because it was such a bitch to find - I would have thought a raintight rigid TA would be right next to the EMT one in HD or Lowe's but nope, and my local electrical supply would only order them in quantities of five. Pain in the dick. Speaking of ( ), my impression is that a better solution to "how do you properly terminate a conduit in a Christy box that wires are coming out of" is a bell end adapter? But as I recall that was even more expensive or hard to find (this was in July last year, I honestly can't remember). Those cables aren't rubbing on any sharp edges which is frankly what I think I need to care about, and the connections are in DryConns so should be good - I understand the new hotness is Polaris but oh well.

Anyway as far as that inspection, obviously my ego tells me "you did such a good job he had no complaints" but since I don't really want to trust that answer and because I'm ALREADY suspicious of how much of a poo poo anyone in California gives about any building or code related correctness, my guess is he's used to things being slapped together like complete poo poo barely meeting code and I managed to surpass that exceedingly low bar. So, instead of trusting that the inspector will catch any major mistakes much less minor ones, I'd rather check with the hivemind here for the remaining item I have, which is the replacement of the current garage subpanel (once new main panel is live - I'm not touching the currently live garage subpanel, no thanks).

Picture of current in-wall panel with drywall cut out to the size of the backing board I've cut for the new pull box and new panel:

Picture of pull box (top) and new panel:

The plan is to have this fully prewired (12 ga THHN individual hot & neutral wires from breakers through 1.25" nipple into pull box, plus hot/neutral 10 ga THHN for dryer, hot/neutral 8 ga THHN for range), with holes cut in back of pull box using Greenlee slugbusters, corresponding holes drilled in backing board behind that, various NM clamps mounted into holes, and pull box / panel mounted to backing board with mounting holes for lag screws drilled in backing board such that the replacement of the old panel consists of:

1. Disconnect wires (to be temp labeled with old and new circuit numbers first) from inside of old now-dead panel and pull up into wall. Remove old panel and go Office Space on it probably.
2. Brace new backing board/panel assembly against bottom of the drywall cut and slowly tilt into place while simultaneously:
3. Running wires through NM clamps in back of pullbox until backing board is tight to studs at which point:
4. Fasten board to studs with lags through predrilled holes and finish connecting wires in the pull box. (All connections there will be lever Wagos).
5. Get final inspection. Incidentals like caulk around drywall/backing board interface.

My thought is that since this new garage panel (Panel 2) is fed from not only a breaker but that breaker is in a separate subpanel (Panel 1A) underneath the main panel outside (Panel 1, which I purchased as a CSED with two 200-amp breakers instead of one 400-amp, didn't realize what that meant until I'd learned more "how to electrician" 3 years later at which point main panel had long been mounted on a wall I'd entirely rebuilt to do so, WHOOPS GUESS I'M ADDING ANOTHER SUBPANEL), I'd not only have that inside-Panel1A breaker be dead but also the CSED's breaker to Panel 1A dead and LOTOd until Panel 2 is wired and inspected. "Is that an acceptable plan" was another question I had for the inspector, but he basically walked off before I had a chance.

Anyway, I'd welcome comments / notes / "haha what the gently caress"s on this plan and the setup. A couple more notes/questions:

1. Backing board will be primed and then painted on all sides with intumescent paint. One of the only comments the inspector had was to also suggest using intumescent pads behind the panel/pullbox so I'll do that as well on top of the paint. Why would I use intumescent paint at $80/gallon? WELL YOU SEE, MY TIME IS WORTH ZERO SO....also at this point I HAVE the paint moldering in my cabinet so it's really an issue of "what can I paint with it, poo poo was expensive".
2. Should I drill individual holes in the backing board for the NM clamps, or just one large oval/rectangular hole? Latter would be easier but my suspicion is individual is better for board integrity and general "don't expose the wall cavity". By the way, this is absolutely the wall between the kitchen and garage. Hm, shouldn't that type of wall have insulation? ONE WOULD THINK. 1970s California builders, everyone - it's a pile of poo poo all the way down.
3. My plan is to ground all the wires coming into the pullbox with a grounding bar in the pullbox, shown at the left in the picture. Then what I haven't calculated but is probably a 4 or 6 ga wire to a small ground bar in the main panel where the feeder ground is terminated (I have the SquareD lugs to screw to the regular ground bar to accept a 3 gauge ground). Any concerns with that idea?
4. I believe pullbox is sized correctly for the number of junctions/wires (one 30A dryer, one 40A range, six 20A, nine 15A circuits), as should be the 1.25" nipple for the THHN wires (60% max fill as a nipple). Yes?
5. Originally pullbox and thus nipple was also going to have the 1-1-1-3 SE feeder cable but I changed how that's routed - it's now coming up at the bottom of the studbay the current panel's in and I'm thinking I'll just have it come in through the back of the new panel itself (another hole in backing board) and then up to the lugs which also allows me to incorporate a bit of a service loop.
6. The screw type NM clamps, and SE feeder clamp - OK to put clamp side in box, so I can tighten screws once panel is mounted to wall? Yet again something else I was going to ask inspector but didn't get a chance. Internet results seem to waffle on this.
7. Anyone hate the T&B plastic NM clamps I'm showing? They seemed faster and easier than the screw type, albeit presumably less solid. Each is rated for two 12/2 NM (and with six 20A and nine 15A circuits, 8 of these clamps should do it - the 1/2" screw clamp is for dryer 10 gauge and 3/4" screw clamp for range 8 ga). Closeup:

I'm sure there's other things I'm forgetting but since most people stopped reading five paragraphs ago I'm gonna stop now. Hope you enjoyed the novel.

One last note, having done the trenching out of the 5 foot run to the Christy box, the hole for that, and a 6 foot run from there to the post I put in the ground for the new AC disconnect: gently caress TRENCHING. I am never doing that poo poo myself again (which is why I will be paying a guy almost five loving figures to hand dig the 40 foot trench and run the conduit from the new main panel to the PG&E vault - money well spent in my view). On the plus side I'm pretty good with a jackhammer now so that's nice I guess?

I'm kinda surprised you don't really have any room for spare breakers there. If I were doing a panel swap, I'd definitely leave room for new circuits. You've got what, one open space?

Did you do any planning for adding solar in the future? Even if you don't intend to do it now, leaving space/busbar capacity for it seems like a good idea.

# ? Jan 10, 2023 02:07

SyNack Sassimov: May 4, 2006; Let the robot win.
��--Captain James T. Vader

devicenull posted:

I'm kinda surprised you don't really have any room for spare breakers there. If I were doing a panel swap, I'd definitely leave room for new circuits. You've got what, one open space?

Did you do any planning for adding solar in the future? Even if you don't intend to do it now, leaving space/busbar capacity for it seems like a good idea.

There's I think three open spaces in that panel, but A) I have a new 100-amp 24 space panel run elsewhere in the garage that's currently completely empty and B) there's 8 or so open spaces in the new main CSED outside, plus technically another 6 spaces or so in the subpanel outside under the CSED that I had to add because I hosed up and bought a (2) 200-amp breaker CSED instead of (1) 400-amp main and had already mounted it when I figured that out.

This replacement panel in the pictures is just to get rid of the existing Federal Pacific subpanel buried in the garage/kitchen wall so I just needed to provide enough spaces for those existing circuits - I don't intend to run any new circuits here. The new 100A subpanel will be for EV charger & other new garage circuits, and either that or the CSED would be where I land more general circuits - I already have 12 new circuits going into the CSED as part of this work.

Solar is in the future but that will be going into the CSED outside as well.

# ? Jan 10, 2023 02:13

H110Hawk: Dec 28, 2006

There is no kill like overkill. Live your best life.

# ? Jan 10, 2023 02:30

Pentecoastal Elites: Feb 27, 2007

Hello wiring thread, I somehow missed you before I posted my question in the home thread and got a suggestion to ask here:

Pentecoastal Elites posted:

quick question -- I'm in Chicago and have to do a bunch of electrical work in a (framed, but unfinished) basement. It's going to be expensive one way or another but the price difference between 12AWG and 14AWG and 3/4 and 1/2 metal conduit is, while not negligible, pretty small.

Cost aside, is there any reason I shouldn't get everything at 12AWG in 3/4ths conduit? It's not strictly necessary because it'll be new work on an otherwise unused 15A circuit (so I could get away with the 14, technically) but the price difference is small enough to where I wanted to double check to make sure I'm not missing something obvious.

the general consensus seems like "no" beyond 12 gauge being more difficult to work with, but wanted to triple-check before pushing forward with this project.
thanks!

# ? Jan 10, 2023 05:52

H110Hawk: Dec 28, 2006

If you can swing it 20a circuits are nicer than 15a. Is the space conditioned? If it's going to be cold someone in the future might love being able to run a space heater and something else. While the walls are open is the perfect time to pull cable once. Even 12awg. Engage your core while pulling.

# ? Jan 10, 2023 06:25

Slugworth: Feb 18, 2001; If two grown men can't make a pervert happy for a few minutes in order to watch a film about zombies, then maybe we should all just move to Iran!

Pentecoastal Elites posted:

Hello wiring thread, I somehow missed you before I posted my question in the home thread and got a suggestion to ask here:

the general consensus seems like "no" beyond 12 gauge being more difficult to work with, but wanted to triple-check before pushing forward with this project.
thanks!

My only point of confusion is, would you be replacing all the components of the existing 15amp circuit? Because if so, sure, upgrade to 20/12. But if any part of that existing 15/14 circuit is still there, it's pointless/a potentially confusing/dangerous situation for a future owner.

# ? Jan 10, 2023 12:17

babyeatingpsychopath: Oct 28, 2000; Forum Veteran

Pentecoastal Elites posted:

Hello wiring thread, I somehow missed you before I posted my question in the home thread and got a suggestion to ask here:

the general consensus seems like "no" beyond 12 gauge being more difficult to work with, but wanted to triple-check before pushing forward with this project.
thanks!

No real need to go up to 3/4 pipe. You are allowed 10 (ten) #12 wires in a 1/2 conduit, that's a lot of circuits, even with travellers for 3-ways and other weirdness. Pulling #12 solid or stranded through 1/2" conduit is also very easy at residential distances, and the smaller physical conduit size helps with boxes, etc.

I'd do #12 to everything (solid or stranded, your preference), but keep trade size 1/2 conduit.

# ? Jan 10, 2023 14:46

Pentecoastal Elites: Feb 27, 2007

H110Hawk posted:

If you can swing it 20a circuits are nicer than 15a. Is the space conditioned? If it's going to be cold someone in the future might love being able to run a space heater and something else. While the walls are open is the perfect time to pull cable once. Even 12awg. Engage your core while pulling.

The space will end up conditioned, but nevertheless that's a good idea -- if I'm running the 12 anyway why not go for 20A right off the bat?

Slugworth posted:

My only point of confusion is, would you be replacing all the components of the existing 15amp circuit? Because if so, sure, upgrade to 20/12. But if any part of that existing 15/14 circuit is still there, it's pointless/a potentially confusing/dangerous situation for a future owner.

Everything I'm doing will be 100% new

babyeatingpsychopath posted:

No real need to go up to 3/4 pipe. You are allowed 10 (ten) #12 wires in a 1/2 conduit, that's a lot of circuits, even with travellers for 3-ways and other weirdness. Pulling #12 solid or stranded through 1/2" conduit is also very easy at residential distances, and the smaller physical conduit size helps with boxes, etc.

I'd do #12 to everything (solid or stranded, your preference), but keep trade size 1/2 conduit.

The box connection angle I hadn't considered, that's a good point. I'll triple check my layout but I'm sure that I'm well below the limit anywhere. I can save a few bucks on the conduit and reducers.

# ? Jan 10, 2023 18:15

slurm: Jul 28, 2022; by Hand Knit

For anyone looking to performatively over engineer, we've been having a lot of gremlins from spring terminals on din rails at the 17 year mark on this job

# ? Jan 10, 2023 21:40

Arsenic Lupin: Apr 12, 2012; This particularly rapid💨 unintelligible 😖patter💁 isn't generally heard🧏‍♂️, and if it is🤔, it doesn't matter💁.

Our house is old, and the upper floor has historically been unheated, or heated by a 1950s --at latest-- portable space heater that plugs into (I think) a NEMA 220-30 outlet. Picture below. I have worried about the safety of the heater for some time; my husband loves it because it heats up so fast. I asked the electrician who was coming to do other work to rewire it; he took it to his shop and said that in conscience he couldn't repair it, because it was unsafe. The plug was partly melted, meaning that either the wall wiring or the heater itself was faulty, and of course it had no tip-over protection. I was relieved to have the unsafety of the heater confirmed.

So. We have heavy-duty wiring up to the office. Is there an alternative other than a baseboard heater? I have searched extensively, and as far as I can figure high-amperage heaters are available in Europe, but not the US. There are garage-quality heaters, but they don't have tip protectors and aren't safe for household use.

If we do a baseboard heater, do they have to be under the window?

Constraints.
The house was built in 1931. All the walls are either painted beadboard or knotty pine; neither can be easily replaced if damaged by removal and reinstallation. There is no central heating, and no ductwork. The only gas service to the house is propane, and there's no line up to the second floor. Mini-splits would have to be installed 20 feet in the air, with long supply lines down to the ground.

Thoughts?

# ? Jan 11, 2023 02:06

tangy yet delightful: Sep 13, 2005

My non-wiring thought is could you just buy a heater from Europe? ebay.eu.com or whatever?

Assuming your electrician who attempted that re-wire says they could wire up the correct plug from a euro heater anyway.

# ? Jan 11, 2023 02:15

SyNack Sassimov: May 4, 2006; Let the robot win.
��--Captain James T. Vader

slurm posted:

For anyone looking to performatively over engineer, we've been having a lot of gremlins from spring terminals on din rails at the 17 year mark on this job

I wasn't actually going to change to DIN terminals but this is good to know. I wouldn't have trusted them anyway as the backstab debacle tells me I shouldn't have springs anywhere in my electrical system (thus lever-action Wagos not the stab kind).

It might have gotten lost in my still absurdly long reply, so if anyone does have a better solution than "giant pullbox and 60 Wagos" for how to rewire a bunch of NM that I need to bring out of the wall and is already too short (and I don't want to move the new panel two feet up the wall), I'm all ears.

# ? Jan 11, 2023 02:24

SyNack Sassimov: May 4, 2006; Let the robot win.
��--Captain James T. Vader

The thing I was actually gonna post: my friend who lives in a much rainier section of CA sent me this photo.

That is, in fact, water dripping OUT of his main breaker handle. As far as we can determine right now (limited ability to check because of continuing rain i.e. he doesn't want to be holding the panel open), it might be coming through the weatherhead and dripping down past the meter? But we don't know for sure. Raintight hub on the top of the panel looks relatively sealed.

He found out because when PG&E supposedly restored his power, he was getting a zap by touching that plastic handle of the main breaker :shepface:

And this is why putting electrical panels outside, even supposedly raintight ones, is just loving stupid. :ca:

# ? Jan 11, 2023 02:34

Arsenic Lupin: Apr 12, 2012; This particularly rapid💨 unintelligible 😖patter💁 isn't generally heard🧏‍♂️, and if it is🤔, it doesn't matter💁.

tangy yet delightful posted:

My non-wiring thought is could you just buy a heater from Europe? ebay.eu.com or whatever?

Assuming your electrician who attempted that re-wire says they could wire up the correct plug from a euro heater anyway.

I wasn't sure if rewiring the plug would be safe.

# ? Jan 11, 2023 02:36

Motronic: Nov 6, 2009

tangy yet delightful posted:

My non-wiring thought is could you just buy a heater from Europe? ebay.eu.com or whatever?

Assuming your electrician who attempted that re-wire says they could wire up the correct plug from a euro heater anyway.

You should probably not be giving advice in this thread. In fact looking at at your post history in this thread, I'm positive you should not be giving advice in this thread. Please refer to the thread title.

Your suggestion is a good way to give a property insurance company a way out of paying your claim when the house burns down.

Arsenic Lupin posted:

I wasn't sure if rewiring the plug would be safe.

Doing a proper job at changing a plug is fine. Importing a high current electrical heating device that is unlikely to have any relevant certifications for either electrical or heat producing devices in the US and installing it in your US home is a stupendously bad idea.

# ? Jan 11, 2023 03:16

Qwijib0: Apr 10, 2007; Who needs on-field skills when you can dance like this?; Fun Shoe

There are UL Listed 240v portable heaters, like this one for example

https://www.globalindustrial.com/p/dual-heat-240v-fan-forced-heater

It needs a 6-20 plug instead of what you have, but it sounds like you should probably replace it anyway.

# ? Jan 11, 2023 04:13

H110Hawk: Dec 28, 2006

tangy yet delightful posted:

My non-wiring thought is could you just buy a heater from Europe? ebay.eu.com or whatever?

Assuming your electrician who attempted that re-wire says they could wire up the correct plug from a euro heater anyway.

Not even a little bit. Sorry but we're pretty strict on this in this thread. This is the sole warning. Domestic market, unmodified, with domestic market certificates are the name of the game for advice.

# ? Jan 11, 2023 04:41

movax: Aug 30, 2008

H110Hawk posted:

Not even a little bit. Sorry but we're pretty strict on this in this thread. This is the sole warning. Domestic market, unmodified, with domestic market certificates are the name of the game for advice.

tangy yet delightful posted:

My non-wiring thought is could you just buy a heater from Europe? ebay.eu.com or whatever?

Assuming your electrician who attempted that re-wire says they could wire up the correct plug from a euro heater anyway.

If you don't mind H110Hawk, might be worth explaining the reasoning behind why the suggestion is a potentially hazardous one...

Part of the reason your (tangy) suggestion could go awry is the specifics of how that voltage is developed. In North America, you get two lines and a single neutral to your house (generally speaking). Voltage from any line to neutral is 120 VAC, voltage between the lines is 240 VAC. 120 VAC plugs are wired with line and neutral. 240 VAC plugs are wired either line and line, or line, line and neutral. In Europe, they do not do this -- you get 220 VAC from line to neutral and that's that.

If your AC powered device has exposed metal, that is a potential hazard if it is energized (loose wire, chafed insulation, etc.). This caused enough fires / injured enough people that ground wires / protective Earths became the norm -- a 3rd wire that is equipotential (same relative voltage) with neutral, but routed completely separately (I think I have a post with more detail on this earlier in the thread). The point here is that you want a system where a protection mechanism (i.e., a breaker) is tripped if you energize the metal. If that metal is connected to Earth, it follows a separate conductor / path and trips the upstream protection mechanism, de-energizing the system.

Where I'm going with this -- if you buy a European device, it expects the voltage between line and neutral. If you feed that device delicious North American 240 VAC, you have connected that device's neutral to line voltage. If the device has been designed with the exposed metal bits connected to a dedicated ground pin, it might not be an issue but isn't ideal. If the device has instead tied its metal bits to neutral, then you now have a hazard on your end -- in Europe, that metal would be at a low potential and you might get a mild tingle. In North America, that metal is now at 120 VAC and touching it will not be great for you.

Voltage is a potential difference between two points -- what those two points are makes a huge difference. Plastic wall-warts that are 100.. 240 VAC / 47.. 63 Hz don't give a poo poo about this because of the way the internal transformer is tapped + plastic isn't conductive + the DC output is isolated via transformer anyways.

e: as a follow-on, I want to put a 240 V plug in my kitchen for the express purpose of sourcing a kettle that can be made to safely run from 240 VAC L-L because I'm impatient and want to literally double the power I can deliver to boiling water for my pour-overs. Just grabbing a random kettle from a store next time in London wouldn't be a great idea without more diligence because of what I described above -- it expects 220 L-N. I found the j-box that currently hosts the plugs I used is actually where the MWBC enters my kitchen while replacing an outlet, so I got excited....

One could also argue that EU / 200 V countries have an existing leg up in EV adoption to some degree because their basic outlets can already support delivering more power than ours, assuming the wiring is of similar gauge and ampacity.

movax fucked around with this message at 05:33 on Jan 11, 2023

# ? Jan 11, 2023 05:02

Arsenic Lupin: Apr 12, 2012; This particularly rapid💨 unintelligible 😖patter💁 isn't generally heard🧏‍♂️, and if it is🤔, it doesn't matter💁.

Qwijib0 posted:

There are UL Listed 240v portable heaters, like this one for example

https://www.globalindustrial.com/p/dual-heat-240v-fan-forced-heater

It needs a 6-20 plug instead of what you have, but it sounds like you should probably replace it anyway.

Waaay too high-powered for indoor use, also no indication of tip protection. And we've thrown away the old heater.

e: Thank you, movax. That was helpful in understanding.

Arsenic Lupin fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Jan 11, 2023

# ? Jan 11, 2023 05:12

movax: Aug 30, 2008

Arsenic Lupin posted:

Waaay too high-powered for indoor use, also no indication of tip protection. And we've thrown away the old heater.

e: Thank you, movax. That was helpful in understanding.

Is the problem sourcing a heater of an appropriate voltage or power? I wonder if an isolation transformer could help if it's got the appropriate taps. Weird use case though.

# ? Jan 11, 2023 05:25

Arsenic Lupin: Apr 12, 2012; This particularly rapid💨 unintelligible 😖patter💁 isn't generally heard🧏‍♂️, and if it is🤔, it doesn't matter💁.

The issue is that I wonder if there's a way to take advantage of the existing high-power line to feed a fast-warming heater. Otherwise we'll just stick with Vornado (in a different outlet) early in the day, to be turned off as the sun warms the room..

# ? Jan 11, 2023 05:37

H110Hawk: Dec 28, 2006

movax posted:

If you don't mind H110Hawk, might be worth explaining the reasoning behind why the suggestion is a potentially hazardous one...

Part of the reason your (tangy) suggestion could go awry is the specifics of how that voltage is developed.

This is great, thank you for the in depth explanation. I always love seeing people in their depth talking about cool things.

Truth is ac is witchcraft and I don't strictly understand all of the nuances about it. The fundamental part I do know is that when there isn't a universal transformer / rectifier in the way (the wall wart) and there is what amounts to a high continuous load (heating elements - heaters, curling irons, laser printers; chargers that lack said wart - generally tools) that it's a no-go.

movax posted:

One could also argue that EU / 200 V countries have an existing leg up in EV adoption to some degree because their basic outlets can already support delivering more power than ours, assuming the wiring is of similar gauge and ampacity.

First they have their smug kettles, then they have their car chargers...

But you are correct. Common circuits are 230v/16a which is a lot more juice than the 120v/20a garage outlets we get here. Whole extra 1.2kw of juice.

# ? Jan 11, 2023 06:31

slurm: Jul 28, 2022; by Hand Knit

SyNack Sassimov posted:

I wasn't actually going to change to DIN terminals but this is good to know. I wouldn't have trusted them anyway as the backstab debacle tells me I shouldn't have springs anywhere in my electrical system (thus lever-action Wagos not the stab kind).

Lever Wagos still rely on a spring though don't they, just with a camming latch that's easy to actuate without tools? The best connection is one that's accessible for maintenance like bolting to a bar where the torque can be checked on a schedule.

I mean of course here where we're having the rail terminal block issues we're also having issues with the wires themselves, loving wires

slurm fucked around with this message at 12:53 on Jan 11, 2023

# ? Jan 11, 2023 12:50

LimaBiker: Dec 9, 2020

movax posted:

Where I'm going with this -- if you buy a European device, it expects the voltage between line and neutral. If you feed that device delicious North American 240 VAC, you have connected that device's neutral to line voltage. If the device has been designed with the exposed metal bits connected to a dedicated ground pin, it might not be an issue but isn't ideal. If the device has instead tied its metal bits to neutral, then you now have a hazard on your end -- in Europe, that metal would be at a low potential and you might get a mild tingle. In North America, that metal is now at 120 VAC and touching it will not be great for you.

The statement in bold is never - literally never - the case in Europe, because many EU plugs are non-polarized so everything on the market here is fine with putting the hottest wire on either connection of the device*. The live and the neutral have to be equally well isolated from any metal parts. In some very rare cases, you can actually find houses in which you get two live wires from an ancient 3x 110-130v phase to neutral system to get you an approximate 220v as a cheap way to convert the block from 130v to 220v in the 1960s. This likely is the case with the person who asked about his weird electricity situation in Spain, a few pages back.

All metal parts you can touch** need to always be connected to ground. Ground is likely to be connected to neutral somewhere in the installation, but the systems are designed in such a way that ground is always at the potential of the physical earth, and to minimize the risk of the ground wire being lifted in potential with reference to the physical earth.
The devices are only safe if the case is connected to ground. The neutral wire is never a replacement for ground.

Using such a device in the USA is safe, as long as you have a safe ground connection. After all, heater coils can fail and sag, and heating elements can get leaky over time. In all modern buildings the GFCI will trip, in old buildings the ground connection will keep potential at earth, and with a good earth your main breaker will trip if it's a hard short to ground.
According to my national code, a neutral from a split phase system that's grounded at the transformer is NOT a replacement for a dedicated ground wire.
In short: it can be done safely.

However, although there are a bunch of eu market devices that are UL listed, you cannot assume it, and that can very well become an insurance issue if things do go wrong. gently caress around with insurance? Find out how expensive life can get!

* some central gas fired heating systems use an ionisation probe that's sensitive to where you have live and neutral, but this not safety-related)

** Some devices with metal parts are double isolated, and are not allowed to be referenced to ground or neutral. Think about a mains powered drill with a plastic housing but a metal chuck. These have two factors of isolation: the varnish of the windings in the motor, as well as a non-conductive plastic shaft.

LimaBiker fucked around with this message at 15:03 on Jan 11, 2023

# ? Jan 11, 2023 14:43

Motronic: Nov 6, 2009

Arsenic Lupin posted:

The issue is that I wonder if there's a way to take advantage of the existing high-power line to feed a fast-warming heater. Otherwise we'll just stick with Vornado (in a different outlet) early in the day, to be turned off as the sun warms the room..

Honestly if it's at all feasible/logistically possible the best way to heat this is a mini split. Saves on power, works as AC/dehumidification as well, etc.

Resistance heat is just not efficient.

# ? Jan 11, 2023 14:49

babyeatingpsychopath: Oct 28, 2000; Forum Veteran

Motronic posted:

Honestly if it's at all feasible/logistically possible the best way to heat this is a mini split. Saves on power, works as AC/dehumidification as well, etc.

Resistance heat is just not efficient.

Resistance heat is 100% efficient! All the power you put in comes out at heat! :pseudo:

However, heat pumps are usually 100% efficient in the worst possible case, and normally 200-300% efficient. For every watt of electrical power you put in, you get 2-3 watts of heating out. :science:

# ? Jan 11, 2023 16:40

Super-NintendoUser: Jan 16, 2004; COWABUNGERDER COMPADRES; Soiled Meat

Motronic posted:

Honestly if it's at all feasible/logistically possible the best way to heat this is a mini split. Saves on power, works as AC/dehumidification as well, etc.

Resistance heat is just not efficient.

This the answer. I have a small house with steam radiators downstairs, and space heaters/window units for upstairs. I had two ductless mini-splits put in upstairs, it cost ~$5000, and took about 3 hours to install, and it's been great.

# ? Jan 11, 2023 17:25

H110Hawk: Dec 28, 2006

With some clever eyeballing of the walls you could potentially grab the wires from that nema 220v outlet, pull them outside, and wire them into the minisplit local cutoff box.

Replace the breaker though if it's not newish or oversized. Minisplits are heavenly.

# ? Jan 11, 2023 17:41

Arsenic Lupin: Apr 12, 2012; This particularly rapid💨 unintelligible 😖patter💁 isn't generally heard🧏‍♂️, and if it is🤔, it doesn't matter💁.

This is all very helpful, and I'll put it in my pocket until it comes time to deal with the upstairs heat. Right now, I am focused on the roof :aaaaa:

and the septic system :ohno:

.

If you're wondering why we put up with all this,

Arsenic Lupin posted:

I didn't even mean that as a humblebrag. Sorry.
e: Living room.

# ? Jan 11, 2023 18:27

Powered Descent: Jul 13, 2008; We haven't had that spirit here since 1969.

Hey there thread, wiring noob needs a bit of advice.

My ancient 1980s dishwasher had died long ago, so the last time I had a handyman in the house for something unrelated, I had him rip it out for me. The dishwasher, being 40-ish years old, was hardwired to electrical power, so we were left with the flexible armored cable snaking out of the wall, with the wire ends covered by electrical tape. Obviously not ideal, but hey, it was only until we got a new dishwasher, right?

Well, since I was already accustomed to doing dishes by hand, getting a new dishwasher hasn't been a priority, and it got put off again and again, and in fact I've gotten to like the little freestanding shelf unit I put in the dishwasher hole. This would be fine except for the live wires still coiled up behind it. (Well, okay, they aren't actually live, the dishwasher has its own circuit and it's turned off at the breaker box. Still, over time, my leaving the wires out like this has gradually become straight up negligence.)

So... what do I DO with this thing? Is there at least a way to cap the wires off that wouldn't be a dangerous hacky building code violation, or can I do something like hook it into a new power outlet box that I'd then screw to the back wall of the cabinet? Perhaps even a power outlet that could serve a future dishwasher, when and if I ever actually get one?

Only red and white wires, no green. Does the cable armor itself serve as the ground or something?

# ? Jan 11, 2023 18:46

Motronic: Nov 6, 2009

Have an electrician install an outlet for a potential future dishwasher. It will be cheap, quick and safe.

Hard part will be getting someone OUT there.

If the circuit is off there is no hazard to leaving it exactly how it is.

# ? Jan 11, 2023 18:49

H110Hawk: Dec 28, 2006

It's so simple a handyman could do it really, or you. You basically need a metal box, outlet cover, self grounding (gfci?) outlet, a bushing for that screw on connector, and a couple screws. It's basically this but using the correct parts for your job:

https://www.familyhandyman.com/list/working-with-metal-clad-mc-cable/

The hard part of getting the MC in the right place etc is already done.

# ? Jan 11, 2023 19:08

Powered Descent: Jul 13, 2008; We haven't had that spirit here since 1969.

Thanks to both of you; sounds like I've been overthinking it. I'll check the tutorials and such on how to wire up an outlet, and then decide whether to attempt it myself or chicken out and call the handyman back in.

# ? Jan 12, 2023 01:08

Slugworth: Feb 18, 2001; If two grown men can't make a pervert happy for a few minutes in order to watch a film about zombies, then maybe we should all just move to Iran!

Powered Descent posted:

Only red and white wires, no green. Does the cable armor itself serve as the ground or something?

The conduit *can* act as the ground, but it's an assumption based on a bunch of ifs.

# ? Jan 12, 2023 01:37

frogbs: May 5, 2004; Well well well

I was pointed here by the house thread. Here's what i've got going on:

I've got a 50's house where none of the outlets are grounded. There are GFCI outlets in the kitchen and bathroom, but all the other outlets are original 2 prong ones without grounds.

I'm thinking of getting the breakers replaced with GFCI breakers (to prevent anyone from getting electrocuted), and then maybe also adding one of those whole house surge protectors at the panel (to cover any of the electronics), then replacing all the two prong outlets with 3 prong for convenience.

Is that a solid plan?

Obviously it would be best to run a ground to all the outlets, but that's going to be cost prohibitive right now. I think this gets me in a better spot in terms of safety without going crazy.

*Will add a photo of my panel here shortly*

# ? Jan 12, 2023 05:47

LimaBiker: Dec 9, 2020

GFCIs help prevent you from getting killed if you touch the metal case of a faulty device. They will not trigger until you have actually already been the pathway for the current to ground, if you use outlets without ground. If they intervene, it is within an extremely short time so it's pretty unlikely you die - but you get zapped nonetheless.
It is better than nothing, but it's far from ideal. The benefit of GFCIs is that they also protect you when using devices without ground, as long as the neutral is connected to a good ground at your distribution transformer or fuse board, before the breakers.
I highly recommend putting in GFCI breakers.

I do not know USA code, but where i live, it's absolutely not up to code to put in outlets that have a ground terminal, but are not actually connected to ground. Because that can give people the idea that they're plugging their device into a grounded outlet while they're actually not. So my personal opinion is to never ever install 3 terminal outlets if there's no ground wire running to them.

# ? Jan 12, 2023 08:14

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# ? May 11, 2024 17:37

shame on an IGA: Apr 8, 2005

LimaBiker posted:

.

I do not know USA code, but where i live, it's absolutely not up to code to put in outlets that have a ground terminal, but are not actually connected to ground. Because that can give people the idea that they're plugging their device into a grounded outlet while they're actually not. So my personal opinion is to never ever install 3 terminal outlets if there's no ground wire running to them.

US code allows three prong outlets with no ground wire IF they are protected by a GFCI device AND have a sticker applied to the faceplate

# ? Jan 12, 2023 16:24

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Hobbies, Crafts, & Houses > Wiring Thread: This stupid safety device started alerting that there wasn't safety!

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