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n0tqu1tesane posted:It just seems to be adding an additional point of failure and complication where it isn't needed. Oh it absolutely is doing that but it's not against code, just absurdly over engineered.
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# ? Jan 9, 2023 23:12 |
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# ? May 25, 2024 14:54 |
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n0tqu1tesane posted:So you're making 30+ connections between the existing wire and your THHN in the pull box? Why not just land it in the actual breaker box onto the breakers? My only guess would be concern that the existing romex is too short to reach the new panel? It still seems like a silly thing to want to do but if he insists on doing the silly thing, DIN rail terminal blocks would be a much better and performatively overbuilt, because that seems to be the goal here, way of doing the silly thing than a rats nest of wagos
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# ? Jan 9, 2023 23:13 |
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shame on an IGA posted:My only guess would be concern that the existing romex is too short to reach the new panel? Yeah they probably would but aren't they excessively European? This is Amurrica I don't hold truck with no got dang European ...Wagos are European you say? Ah, well, nevertheless But yes the concern is that the existing Romex is far too short - there's already splices (which frankly look like they're just in-line-twisted-together-and-taped, no wirenuts and I highly doubt it's Western Union splice) in several of the runs in the existing panel and I really would prefer to take those out. The other advantage of this to my mind (especially with Wagos) is that the panel replacement is essentially prewired and the actual install time is thus greatly shortened since it's just running the old NM into the pullbox, stripping ends, connecting the Wagos and grounds into ground bar. As far as performatively overbuilt, I mean sure, I guess? It's more that I'm sick and tired of how badly everything is done in this house and seemingly California in general, and given that, again, it's not that expensive to overbuild in this case, I'd rather have it be something I never have to worry about again. I currently have FPE panels, i.e. closely related to the ones that set your house on fire, I've already had two cases of outlets scorching due to the lovely 1970s crimp connectors (you know, put two wires next to each other, fold a piece of tin around them and "crimp" with your linemans), and if I'm going to go to all the trouble of replacing all this poo poo I don't want to ever touch it again or be concerned about it burning my house down. But yes, other than novel length posts here I'm not performing for anyone, I'm not loving posting on social media "look at my electrical panel" or some poo poo, sorry it comes off as performative but that wasn't really the intent. Anyway I originally didn't want the pullbox and I completely agree that having all those connections is irritating and adding another point of failure, but unless I move the new panel up the wall two feet from where the old panel is I won't have enough slack to connect wires to breakers, and with my goal being to make that particular panel replacement as quick as possible (like, over a weekend) so that I can get the majority of the house powered again once power is run to the new panel, the pullbox seemed like the best choice. I'm completely open to suggestions if someone has them as to how to change that without moving the new panel up or taking a long time to replace the old panel. edit: since I didn't make it clear, even with all this performative overbuilding the parts and various tools have still cost me slightly less than just the amount I will be paying someone to hand-dig a 40 foot long x 4 foot deep trench and run conduit through it, never mind the rest of the work. DIY wasn't actually my original plan back in 2015 - I got bids from electricians, and where the Internet said "an electrician will charge 2 to 4 thousand dollars for this panel replacement and a few hundred dollars for 12 circuits", the cheapest bid I got for all that work was twenty-two thousand dollars, which did not include A) the 40 foot trench or B) replacing the existing garage subpanel. (One bid was $7k just to replace the main panel, literally just hang the new CSED on the wall outside). Perhaps people are not familiar with how stupid trades pricing is in the Bay Area... SyNack Sassimov fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Jan 10, 2023 |
# ? Jan 10, 2023 01:55 |
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SyNack Sassimov posted:Edit: this is a long post full of blithering, just so you're warned. I'm kinda surprised you don't really have any room for spare breakers there. If I were doing a panel swap, I'd definitely leave room for new circuits. You've got what, one open space? Did you do any planning for adding solar in the future? Even if you don't intend to do it now, leaving space/busbar capacity for it seems like a good idea.
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# ? Jan 10, 2023 02:07 |
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devicenull posted:I'm kinda surprised you don't really have any room for spare breakers there. If I were doing a panel swap, I'd definitely leave room for new circuits. You've got what, one open space? There's I think three open spaces in that panel, but A) I have a new 100-amp 24 space panel run elsewhere in the garage that's currently completely empty and B) there's 8 or so open spaces in the new main CSED outside, plus technically another 6 spaces or so in the subpanel outside under the CSED that I had to add because I hosed up and bought a (2) 200-amp breaker CSED instead of (1) 400-amp main and had already mounted it when I figured that out. This replacement panel in the pictures is just to get rid of the existing Federal Pacific subpanel buried in the garage/kitchen wall so I just needed to provide enough spaces for those existing circuits - I don't intend to run any new circuits here. The new 100A subpanel will be for EV charger & other new garage circuits, and either that or the CSED would be where I land more general circuits - I already have 12 new circuits going into the CSED as part of this work. Solar is in the future but that will be going into the CSED outside as well.
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# ? Jan 10, 2023 02:13 |
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There is no kill like overkill. Live your best life.
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# ? Jan 10, 2023 02:30 |
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Hello wiring thread, I somehow missed you before I posted my question in the home thread and got a suggestion to ask here:Pentecoastal Elites posted:quick question -- I'm in Chicago and have to do a bunch of electrical work in a (framed, but unfinished) basement. It's going to be expensive one way or another but the price difference between 12AWG and 14AWG and 3/4 and 1/2 metal conduit is, while not negligible, pretty small. the general consensus seems like "no" beyond 12 gauge being more difficult to work with, but wanted to triple-check before pushing forward with this project. thanks!
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# ? Jan 10, 2023 05:52 |
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If you can swing it 20a circuits are nicer than 15a. Is the space conditioned? If it's going to be cold someone in the future might love being able to run a space heater and something else. While the walls are open is the perfect time to pull cable once. Even 12awg. Engage your core while pulling.
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# ? Jan 10, 2023 06:25 |
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:Hello wiring thread, I somehow missed you before I posted my question in the home thread and got a suggestion to ask here:
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# ? Jan 10, 2023 12:17 |
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:Hello wiring thread, I somehow missed you before I posted my question in the home thread and got a suggestion to ask here: No real need to go up to 3/4 pipe. You are allowed 10 (ten) #12 wires in a 1/2 conduit, that's a lot of circuits, even with travellers for 3-ways and other weirdness. Pulling #12 solid or stranded through 1/2" conduit is also very easy at residential distances, and the smaller physical conduit size helps with boxes, etc. I'd do #12 to everything (solid or stranded, your preference), but keep trade size 1/2 conduit.
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# ? Jan 10, 2023 14:46 |
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H110Hawk posted:If you can swing it 20a circuits are nicer than 15a. Is the space conditioned? If it's going to be cold someone in the future might love being able to run a space heater and something else. While the walls are open is the perfect time to pull cable once. Even 12awg. Engage your core while pulling. The space will end up conditioned, but nevertheless that's a good idea -- if I'm running the 12 anyway why not go for 20A right off the bat? Slugworth posted:My only point of confusion is, would you be replacing all the components of the existing 15amp circuit? Because if so, sure, upgrade to 20/12. But if any part of that existing 15/14 circuit is still there, it's pointless/a potentially confusing/dangerous situation for a future owner. Everything I'm doing will be 100% new babyeatingpsychopath posted:No real need to go up to 3/4 pipe. You are allowed 10 (ten) #12 wires in a 1/2 conduit, that's a lot of circuits, even with travellers for 3-ways and other weirdness. Pulling #12 solid or stranded through 1/2" conduit is also very easy at residential distances, and the smaller physical conduit size helps with boxes, etc. The box connection angle I hadn't considered, that's a good point. I'll triple check my layout but I'm sure that I'm well below the limit anywhere. I can save a few bucks on the conduit and reducers.
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# ? Jan 10, 2023 18:15 |
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For anyone looking to performatively over engineer, we've been having a lot of gremlins from spring terminals on din rails at the 17 year mark on this job
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# ? Jan 10, 2023 21:40 |
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Our house is old, and the upper floor has historically been unheated, or heated by a 1950s --at latest-- portable space heater that plugs into (I think) a NEMA 220-30 outlet. Picture below. I have worried about the safety of the heater for some time; my husband loves it because it heats up so fast. I asked the electrician who was coming to do other work to rewire it; he took it to his shop and said that in conscience he couldn't repair it, because it was unsafe. The plug was partly melted, meaning that either the wall wiring or the heater itself was faulty, and of course it had no tip-over protection. I was relieved to have the unsafety of the heater confirmed. So. We have heavy-duty wiring up to the office. Is there an alternative other than a baseboard heater? I have searched extensively, and as far as I can figure high-amperage heaters are available in Europe, but not the US. There are garage-quality heaters, but they don't have tip protectors and aren't safe for household use. If we do a baseboard heater, do they have to be under the window? Constraints. The house was built in 1931. All the walls are either painted beadboard or knotty pine; neither can be easily replaced if damaged by removal and reinstallation. There is no central heating, and no ductwork. The only gas service to the house is propane, and there's no line up to the second floor. Mini-splits would have to be installed 20 feet in the air, with long supply lines down to the ground. Thoughts?
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# ? Jan 11, 2023 02:06 |
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My non-wiring thought is could you just buy a heater from Europe? ebay.eu.com or whatever? Assuming your electrician who attempted that re-wire says they could wire up the correct plug from a euro heater anyway.
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# ? Jan 11, 2023 02:15 |
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slurm posted:For anyone looking to performatively over engineer, we've been having a lot of gremlins from spring terminals on din rails at the 17 year mark on this job I wasn't actually going to change to DIN terminals but this is good to know. I wouldn't have trusted them anyway as the backstab debacle tells me I shouldn't have springs anywhere in my electrical system (thus lever-action Wagos not the stab kind). It might have gotten lost in my still absurdly long reply, so if anyone does have a better solution than "giant pullbox and 60 Wagos" for how to rewire a bunch of NM that I need to bring out of the wall and is already too short (and I don't want to move the new panel two feet up the wall), I'm all ears.
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# ? Jan 11, 2023 02:24 |
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The thing I was actually gonna post: my friend who lives in a much rainier section of CA sent me this photo. That is, in fact, water dripping OUT of his main breaker handle. As far as we can determine right now (limited ability to check because of continuing rain i.e. he doesn't want to be holding the panel open), it might be coming through the weatherhead and dripping down past the meter? But we don't know for sure. Raintight hub on the top of the panel looks relatively sealed. He found out because when PG&E supposedly restored his power, he was getting a zap by touching that plastic handle of the main breaker And this is why putting electrical panels outside, even supposedly raintight ones, is just loving stupid.
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# ? Jan 11, 2023 02:34 |
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tangy yet delightful posted:My non-wiring thought is could you just buy a heater from Europe? ebay.eu.com or whatever? I wasn't sure if rewiring the plug would be safe.
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# ? Jan 11, 2023 02:36 |
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tangy yet delightful posted:My non-wiring thought is could you just buy a heater from Europe? ebay.eu.com or whatever? You should probably not be giving advice in this thread. In fact looking at at your post history in this thread, I'm positive you should not be giving advice in this thread. Please refer to the thread title. Your suggestion is a good way to give a property insurance company a way out of paying your claim when the house burns down. Arsenic Lupin posted:I wasn't sure if rewiring the plug would be safe. Doing a proper job at changing a plug is fine. Importing a high current electrical heating device that is unlikely to have any relevant certifications for either electrical or heat producing devices in the US and installing it in your US home is a stupendously bad idea.
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# ? Jan 11, 2023 03:16 |
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There are UL Listed 240v portable heaters, like this one for example https://www.globalindustrial.com/p/dual-heat-240v-fan-forced-heater It needs a 6-20 plug instead of what you have, but it sounds like you should probably replace it anyway.
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# ? Jan 11, 2023 04:13 |
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tangy yet delightful posted:My non-wiring thought is could you just buy a heater from Europe? ebay.eu.com or whatever? Not even a little bit. Sorry but we're pretty strict on this in this thread. This is the sole warning. Domestic market, unmodified, with domestic market certificates are the name of the game for advice.
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# ? Jan 11, 2023 04:41 |
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H110Hawk posted:Not even a little bit. Sorry but we're pretty strict on this in this thread. This is the sole warning. Domestic market, unmodified, with domestic market certificates are the name of the game for advice. tangy yet delightful posted:My non-wiring thought is could you just buy a heater from Europe? ebay.eu.com or whatever? If you don't mind H110Hawk, might be worth explaining the reasoning behind why the suggestion is a potentially hazardous one... Part of the reason your (tangy) suggestion could go awry is the specifics of how that voltage is developed. In North America, you get two lines and a single neutral to your house (generally speaking). Voltage from any line to neutral is 120 VAC, voltage between the lines is 240 VAC. 120 VAC plugs are wired with line and neutral. 240 VAC plugs are wired either line and line, or line, line and neutral. In Europe, they do not do this -- you get 220 VAC from line to neutral and that's that. If your AC powered device has exposed metal, that is a potential hazard if it is energized (loose wire, chafed insulation, etc.). This caused enough fires / injured enough people that ground wires / protective Earths became the norm -- a 3rd wire that is equipotential (same relative voltage) with neutral, but routed completely separately (I think I have a post with more detail on this earlier in the thread). The point here is that you want a system where a protection mechanism (i.e., a breaker) is tripped if you energize the metal. If that metal is connected to Earth, it follows a separate conductor / path and trips the upstream protection mechanism, de-energizing the system. Where I'm going with this -- if you buy a European device, it expects the voltage between line and neutral. If you feed that device delicious North American 240 VAC, you have connected that device's neutral to line voltage. If the device has been designed with the exposed metal bits connected to a dedicated ground pin, it might not be an issue but isn't ideal. If the device has instead tied its metal bits to neutral, then you now have a hazard on your end -- in Europe, that metal would be at a low potential and you might get a mild tingle. In North America, that metal is now at 120 VAC and touching it will not be great for you. Voltage is a potential difference between two points -- what those two points are makes a huge difference. Plastic wall-warts that are 100.. 240 VAC / 47.. 63 Hz don't give a poo poo about this because of the way the internal transformer is tapped + plastic isn't conductive + the DC output is isolated via transformer anyways. e: as a follow-on, I want to put a 240 V plug in my kitchen for the express purpose of sourcing a kettle that can be made to safely run from 240 VAC L-L because I'm impatient and want to literally double the power I can deliver to boiling water for my pour-overs. Just grabbing a random kettle from a store next time in London wouldn't be a great idea without more diligence because of what I described above -- it expects 220 L-N. I found the j-box that currently hosts the plugs I used is actually where the MWBC enters my kitchen while replacing an outlet, so I got excited.... One could also argue that EU / 200 V countries have an existing leg up in EV adoption to some degree because their basic outlets can already support delivering more power than ours, assuming the wiring is of similar gauge and ampacity. movax fucked around with this message at 05:33 on Jan 11, 2023 |
# ? Jan 11, 2023 05:02 |
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Qwijib0 posted:There are UL Listed 240v portable heaters, like this one for example e: Thank you, movax. That was helpful in understanding. Arsenic Lupin fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Jan 11, 2023 |
# ? Jan 11, 2023 05:12 |
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Waaay too high-powered for indoor use, also no indication of tip protection. And we've thrown away the old heater. Is the problem sourcing a heater of an appropriate voltage or power? I wonder if an isolation transformer could help if it's got the appropriate taps. Weird use case though.
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# ? Jan 11, 2023 05:25 |
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The issue is that I wonder if there's a way to take advantage of the existing high-power line to feed a fast-warming heater. Otherwise we'll just stick with Vornado (in a different outlet) early in the day, to be turned off as the sun warms the room..
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# ? Jan 11, 2023 05:37 |
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movax posted:If you don't mind H110Hawk, might be worth explaining the reasoning behind why the suggestion is a potentially hazardous one... This is great, thank you for the in depth explanation. I always love seeing people in their depth talking about cool things. Truth is ac is witchcraft and I don't strictly understand all of the nuances about it. The fundamental part I do know is that when there isn't a universal transformer / rectifier in the way (the wall wart) and there is what amounts to a high continuous load (heating elements - heaters, curling irons, laser printers; chargers that lack said wart - generally tools) that it's a no-go. movax posted:
First they have their smug kettles, then they have their car chargers... But you are correct. Common circuits are 230v/16a which is a lot more juice than the 120v/20a garage outlets we get here. Whole extra 1.2kw of juice.
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# ? Jan 11, 2023 06:31 |
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SyNack Sassimov posted:I wasn't actually going to change to DIN terminals but this is good to know. I wouldn't have trusted them anyway as the backstab debacle tells me I shouldn't have springs anywhere in my electrical system (thus lever-action Wagos not the stab kind). Lever Wagos still rely on a spring though don't they, just with a camming latch that's easy to actuate without tools? The best connection is one that's accessible for maintenance like bolting to a bar where the torque can be checked on a schedule. I mean of course here where we're having the rail terminal block issues we're also having issues with the wires themselves, loving wires slurm fucked around with this message at 12:53 on Jan 11, 2023 |
# ? Jan 11, 2023 12:50 |
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movax posted:Where I'm going with this -- if you buy a European device, it expects the voltage between line and neutral. If you feed that device delicious North American 240 VAC, you have connected that device's neutral to line voltage. If the device has been designed with the exposed metal bits connected to a dedicated ground pin, it might not be an issue but isn't ideal. If the device has instead tied its metal bits to neutral, then you now have a hazard on your end -- in Europe, that metal would be at a low potential and you might get a mild tingle. In North America, that metal is now at 120 VAC and touching it will not be great for you. All metal parts you can touch** need to always be connected to ground. Ground is likely to be connected to neutral somewhere in the installation, but the systems are designed in such a way that ground is always at the potential of the physical earth, and to minimize the risk of the ground wire being lifted in potential with reference to the physical earth. The devices are only safe if the case is connected to ground. The neutral wire is never a replacement for ground. Using such a device in the USA is safe, as long as you have a safe ground connection. After all, heater coils can fail and sag, and heating elements can get leaky over time. In all modern buildings the GFCI will trip, in old buildings the ground connection will keep potential at earth, and with a good earth your main breaker will trip if it's a hard short to ground. According to my national code, a neutral from a split phase system that's grounded at the transformer is NOT a replacement for a dedicated ground wire. In short: it can be done safely. However, although there are a bunch of eu market devices that are UL listed, you cannot assume it, and that can very well become an insurance issue if things do go wrong. gently caress around with insurance? Find out how expensive life can get! * some central gas fired heating systems use an ionisation probe that's sensitive to where you have live and neutral, but this not safety-related) ** Some devices with metal parts are double isolated, and are not allowed to be referenced to ground or neutral. Think about a mains powered drill with a plastic housing but a metal chuck. These have two factors of isolation: the varnish of the windings in the motor, as well as a non-conductive plastic shaft. LimaBiker fucked around with this message at 15:03 on Jan 11, 2023 |
# ? Jan 11, 2023 14:43 |
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Arsenic Lupin posted:The issue is that I wonder if there's a way to take advantage of the existing high-power line to feed a fast-warming heater. Otherwise we'll just stick with Vornado (in a different outlet) early in the day, to be turned off as the sun warms the room.. Honestly if it's at all feasible/logistically possible the best way to heat this is a mini split. Saves on power, works as AC/dehumidification as well, etc. Resistance heat is just not efficient.
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# ? Jan 11, 2023 14:49 |
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Motronic posted:Honestly if it's at all feasible/logistically possible the best way to heat this is a mini split. Saves on power, works as AC/dehumidification as well, etc. Resistance heat is 100% efficient! All the power you put in comes out at heat! However, heat pumps are usually 100% efficient in the worst possible case, and normally 200-300% efficient. For every watt of electrical power you put in, you get 2-3 watts of heating out.
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# ? Jan 11, 2023 16:40 |
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Motronic posted:Honestly if it's at all feasible/logistically possible the best way to heat this is a mini split. Saves on power, works as AC/dehumidification as well, etc. This the answer. I have a small house with steam radiators downstairs, and space heaters/window units for upstairs. I had two ductless mini-splits put in upstairs, it cost ~$5000, and took about 3 hours to install, and it's been great.
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# ? Jan 11, 2023 17:25 |
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With some clever eyeballing of the walls you could potentially grab the wires from that nema 220v outlet, pull them outside, and wire them into the minisplit local cutoff box. Replace the breaker though if it's not newish or oversized. Minisplits are heavenly.
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# ? Jan 11, 2023 17:41 |
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This is all very helpful, and I'll put it in my pocket until it comes time to deal with the upstairs heat. Right now, I am focused on the roof and the septic system . If you're wondering why we put up with all this, Arsenic Lupin posted:I didn't even mean that as a humblebrag. Sorry.
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# ? Jan 11, 2023 18:27 |
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Hey there thread, wiring noob needs a bit of advice. My ancient 1980s dishwasher had died long ago, so the last time I had a handyman in the house for something unrelated, I had him rip it out for me. The dishwasher, being 40-ish years old, was hardwired to electrical power, so we were left with the flexible armored cable snaking out of the wall, with the wire ends covered by electrical tape. Obviously not ideal, but hey, it was only until we got a new dishwasher, right? Well, since I was already accustomed to doing dishes by hand, getting a new dishwasher hasn't been a priority, and it got put off again and again, and in fact I've gotten to like the little freestanding shelf unit I put in the dishwasher hole. This would be fine except for the live wires still coiled up behind it. (Well, okay, they aren't actually live, the dishwasher has its own circuit and it's turned off at the breaker box. Still, over time, my leaving the wires out like this has gradually become straight up negligence.) So... what do I DO with this thing? Is there at least a way to cap the wires off that wouldn't be a dangerous hacky building code violation, or can I do something like hook it into a new power outlet box that I'd then screw to the back wall of the cabinet? Perhaps even a power outlet that could serve a future dishwasher, when and if I ever actually get one? Only red and white wires, no green. Does the cable armor itself serve as the ground or something?
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# ? Jan 11, 2023 18:46 |
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Have an electrician install an outlet for a potential future dishwasher. It will be cheap, quick and safe. Hard part will be getting someone OUT there. If the circuit is off there is no hazard to leaving it exactly how it is.
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# ? Jan 11, 2023 18:49 |
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It's so simple a handyman could do it really, or you. You basically need a metal box, outlet cover, self grounding (gfci?) outlet, a bushing for that screw on connector, and a couple screws. It's basically this but using the correct parts for your job: https://www.familyhandyman.com/list/working-with-metal-clad-mc-cable/ The hard part of getting the MC in the right place etc is already done.
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# ? Jan 11, 2023 19:08 |
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Thanks to both of you; sounds like I've been overthinking it. I'll check the tutorials and such on how to wire up an outlet, and then decide whether to attempt it myself or chicken out and call the handyman back in.
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# ? Jan 12, 2023 01:08 |
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Powered Descent posted:Only red and white wires, no green. Does the cable armor itself serve as the ground or something?
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# ? Jan 12, 2023 01:37 |
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I was pointed here by the house thread. Here's what i've got going on: I've got a 50's house where none of the outlets are grounded. There are GFCI outlets in the kitchen and bathroom, but all the other outlets are original 2 prong ones without grounds. I'm thinking of getting the breakers replaced with GFCI breakers (to prevent anyone from getting electrocuted), and then maybe also adding one of those whole house surge protectors at the panel (to cover any of the electronics), then replacing all the two prong outlets with 3 prong for convenience. Is that a solid plan? Obviously it would be best to run a ground to all the outlets, but that's going to be cost prohibitive right now. I think this gets me in a better spot in terms of safety without going crazy. *Will add a photo of my panel here shortly*
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# ? Jan 12, 2023 05:47 |
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GFCIs help prevent you from getting killed if you touch the metal case of a faulty device. They will not trigger until you have actually already been the pathway for the current to ground, if you use outlets without ground. If they intervene, it is within an extremely short time so it's pretty unlikely you die - but you get zapped nonetheless. It is better than nothing, but it's far from ideal. The benefit of GFCIs is that they also protect you when using devices without ground, as long as the neutral is connected to a good ground at your distribution transformer or fuse board, before the breakers. I highly recommend putting in GFCI breakers. I do not know USA code, but where i live, it's absolutely not up to code to put in outlets that have a ground terminal, but are not actually connected to ground. Because that can give people the idea that they're plugging their device into a grounded outlet while they're actually not. So my personal opinion is to never ever install 3 terminal outlets if there's no ground wire running to them.
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# ? Jan 12, 2023 08:14 |
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# ? May 25, 2024 14:54 |
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LimaBiker posted:. US code allows three prong outlets with no ground wire IF they are protected by a GFCI device AND have a sticker applied to the faceplate
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# ? Jan 12, 2023 16:24 |