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Who's your 2022 MVP? This poll is closed. |
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| Shohei Ohtani |
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50 | 59.52% |
| Aaron Judge |
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19 | 22.62% |
| Hey, the national league has an MVP too you know! |
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15 | 17.86% |
| Total: | 84 votes | ||
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When it comes to borderline cases like Andre Dawson, was he elite while he played, or was he really to pretty good for a very long time? I saw him as a compiler who came up short. He played for 20 years and still came up shy in all the milestones. At least with Rolen, you could argue he was (among) the best 3B of his era. Even then, he played at the same time as Beltre and Cabrera. After he got in, the most consistent justification I'd read was that he would've been legendary if his knees hadn't been destroyed by turf.
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Jan 25, 2023 20:49
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How many center fielders were better than Dawson during the 80’s, where he was an 8x All Star? How is he not among the best at his position during his career?
bawfuls fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Jan 25, 2023 |
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Jan 25, 2023 20:53
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I feel this is also relevant to this conversation, via Dan Szymborski. (Hi Dan!) https://twitter.com/DSzymborski/status/1618277136925597700
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Jan 25, 2023 20:57
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zoux posted:Dude if your theory has you saying things like "Ichiro was a borderline guy" If IKF is getting a roster spot then yeah I think Ozzie would too
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Jan 25, 2023 20:58
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IKF catching a lot of strays.
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Jan 25, 2023 20:59
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Hey we're comparing him to a Hall of Famer
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Jan 25, 2023 21:02
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FlamingLiberal posted:Put Ryan Braun in the Hall delete this
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Jan 25, 2023 21:04
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Put the lab guy Ryan Braun threw under the bus in the hall.
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Jan 25, 2023 21:09
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FlamingLiberal posted:Put Ryan Braun in the Hall not funny
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Jan 25, 2023 21:15
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If you aren't gonna put Bobby Abreu in the HoF how are you gonna put Ichiro in 
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Jan 25, 2023 21:15
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I'd like to see a zero-based hall approach where every member has to be re-voted in every year.
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Jan 25, 2023 21:17
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zoux posted:The Hall of Just Ted Williams. I don't know, he didn't play defense, never won a championship, had a...contentious relationship with the media and the fans. Are we sure he's a hall of famer?
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Jan 25, 2023 21:20
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howe_sam posted:I don't know, he didn't play defense, never won a championship, had a...contentious relationship with the media and the fans. Are we sure he's a hall of famer? On base percentage of .000 from 1942-46. Real ones get it done no matter the state of international geopolitics.
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Jan 25, 2023 21:21
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rickiep00h posted:Put the lab guy Ryan Braun threw under the bus in the hall.
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Jan 25, 2023 21:21
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zoux posted:The Hall of Just Ted Williams. IcePhoenix posted:The hall of only Mariano Rivera Put both at their peak in The Show and simulate 1000 at-bats. If Ted manages to hit .400 off Rivera, he gets to be the only guy in the Hall. Otherwise, it's the hall of Mariano, and Ted can have a bat in there with a little sign that said "Baseball also had players called 'hitters'".
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Jan 25, 2023 21:23
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Lumpy posted:Put both at their peak in The Show and simulate 1000 at-bats. If Ted manages to hit .400 off Rivera, he gets to be the only guy in the Hall. Otherwise, it's the hall of Mariano, and Ted can have a bat in there with a little sign that said "Baseball also had players called 'hitters'". only one of them had 100% of the votes sorry those are the rules
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Jan 25, 2023 21:35
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FlamingLiberal posted:Put Ryan Braun in the Hall If you disagree, you're probably an anti-Semitic Cubs fan 
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Jan 25, 2023 21:44
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mcmagic posted:It should be like completely obvious to everyone that a guy is a hall of famer imo I agree with this to a point, because if you just sort by WAR then pretty soon you're arguing for Evan Longoria in the Hall. 58 WAR, he's a borderline case! When no one ever thought of Longo that way. But I also don't think a guy has to put up insane Bonds/Trout/Kershaw/etc stats every year to be a Hall of Famer. Adrian Beltre wasn't an MVP candidate every year, but you look back on his career and he's clearly one of the best third basemen ever.
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Jan 25, 2023 21:45
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bawfuls posted:How many center fielders were better than Dawson during the 80’s, where he was an 8x All Star? How is he not among the best at his position during his career? Not many besides Kirby Puckett, perhaps. But a dearth of talent at a position doesn't mean the best at that position are necessarily elite.
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Jan 25, 2023 21:45
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How many people has Ted Williams killed and why is he not subject to character clauses? Just because he was at war he’s allowed to get away with it?
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Jan 25, 2023 21:46
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I think the fact that he posted only one WAR over a four year period is more of an indictment.
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Jan 25, 2023 21:52
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STAC Goat posted:IKF catching a lot of strays. Yeah, he does that his glove isn't really the point though
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Jan 25, 2023 21:53
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Red posted:Not many besides Kirby Puckett, perhaps. But a dearth of talent at a position doesn't mean the best at that position are necessarily elite. This is also an argument for objective stat based criteria, because you’re trying to compare across eras.
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Jan 25, 2023 21:54
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alpha_destroy posted:I feel this is also relevant to this conversation, via Dan Szymborski. (Hi Dan!) So many stars of the late 80/early 90s fell off the ballot due to allegations of steroid use
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Jan 25, 2023 21:54
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For a while I've been thinking about starting a thread where goons can submit ballots listing people they'd vote *out* of the Hall of Fame. Now seems like a decent time to actually follow through on it. I'm thinking no limit to the number of people listed on a ballot, and anyone on at least 75% of ballots gets voted out. Submitting a blank ballot would mean that you think everyone already in the Hall should stay in. Just like the actual Hall of Fame voting, you could vote a person out for any reason or no reason at all. Ballots would be sent in via PM, but goons would be allowed/encouraged to 'publish' their ballot in the thread. Any other guidelines people would want to see? Or a tweak to the threshold? I'll probably set it up when I get home from work tonight, with a ballot deadline of first pitch of the first spring training game (currently Feb 24th).
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Jan 25, 2023 21:55
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bawfuls posted:Then the stated criteria of “one of the best at his position for an extended time” is useless. Oh, agreed; if you ask me why Rolen is in, that's my explanation, but from my small hall perspective, I wouldn't have put him in.
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Jan 25, 2023 21:56
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Red posted:Not many besides Kirby Puckett, perhaps. But a dearth of talent at a position doesn't mean the best at that position are necessarily elite. What does elite even mean then? Especially in regards to premium positions like s catcher, shortstop, and center? Elite compared to what?
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Jan 25, 2023 21:56
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Paper Tiger posted:For a while I've been thinking about starting a thread where goons can submit ballots listing people they'd vote *out* of the Hall of Fame. Now seems like a decent time to actually follow through on it. There are 341 members of the HoF
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Jan 25, 2023 22:00
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I will officially be the first person to submit a blank "voting out" ballot. That's just mean.
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Jan 25, 2023 22:02
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STAC Goat posted:I will officially be the first person to submit a blank "voting out" ballot. That's just mean. Whoa huge Cap Anson fan over here
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Jan 25, 2023 22:04
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STAC Goat posted:I will officially be the first person to submit a blank "voting out" ballot. That's just mean. Yeah but on the other hand both Jack Morris and Bud Selig are huge pieces of poo poo who do not deserve to be in the hall so gently caress 'em, they're on my ballot.
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Jan 25, 2023 22:07
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Sydin posted:Yeah but on the other hand both Jack Morris and Bud Selig are huge pieces of poo poo who do not deserve to be in the hall so gently caress 'em, they're on my ballot. Wow, a perfect ballot
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Jan 25, 2023 22:10
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zoux posted:There are 341 members of the HoF And statistically not nearly enough Cubs.
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Jan 25, 2023 22:13
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Sydin posted:Yeah but on the other hand both Jack Morris and Bud Selig are huge pieces of poo poo who do not deserve to be in the hall so gently caress 'em, they're on my ballot. Objectively speaking, a huge number of HoF members are/were probably huge pieces of poo poo. to be clear, I'm not disagreeing that pieces of poo poo shouldn't be in the Hall, but we should be consistent
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Jan 25, 2023 22:13
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zoux posted:There are 341 members of the HoF Only 270 are players, but there's still easily some that could be removed without making the Hall any worse/less significant.
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Jan 25, 2023 22:17
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Yeah, I mean its the same problem all over again. If I start voting dudes out for being pieces of poo poo then I gotta create a Piece of poo poo standard line or something. Just more effort than its worth really. At least Cap Anson is dead.
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Jan 25, 2023 22:18
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STAC Goat posted:Yeah, I mean its the same problem all over again. If I start voting dudes out for being pieces of poo poo then I gotta create a Piece of poo poo standard line or something. Just more effort than its worth really. At least Cap Anson is dead. The Roberto Alomar line
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Jan 25, 2023 22:19
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And you know what will happen. We'll vote out all these horrible racists and rapists and then Harold Baines will have to take the elevator with them. That's just not fair.
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Jan 25, 2023 22:20
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No Safe Word posted:Only 270 are players, but there's still easily some that could be removed without making the Hall any worse/less significant. Rabbit Maranville comes to mind
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Jan 25, 2023 22:21
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Beltre is a lock next year but I'm curious to see how Mauer and Utley do. They're both pretty good examples of name recognition and positional dominance with the hardware to show for it but overall numbers that are a bit lacking
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Jan 25, 2023 22:22
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