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boofhead posted:I think there's been a pretty concerted push for RU propaganda to time with what looks to be their latest offensive (or at least ramping up) rather than the usual Russian "throw everything out there and see what sticks" kind of propaganda. Especially in response to escalating Western aid with regard to tanks, which is also something I've been wondering about for a few weeks - I'm still waiting to see what happens this month but I'm wondering if the go ahead for tanks came because Russia is looking comparatively more dangerous than in previous months It's because this one pairs nicely with "Hunter Biden's laptop" bullshit so people who are already primed to buy whatever Putin is selling might buy it a little more eagerly
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Feb 7, 2023 02:30
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Cocoa Ninja posted:I’ve seen plenty of discussion of Ukrainian corruption over the last year, both in this thread as well as in popular videos like Perun as well as CivDiv and WillyOAM’s interviews with Ukrainian soldiers and international volunteers. The "Ukraine is corrupt" angle has been pushed by chuds ever since the war started. But they don't actually care about corruption. They didn't care about Trump's corruption, and they don't care about Russia's corruption. They're putting it out there with Ukraine to make the narrative seem like the US spending all it's money (in reality a incredibly low amount of our military spending) to militarily support a corrupt foreign country instead of spending it here at home which lol that was never going to happen anyway. Add to that chuds want Russia to win because it's a white Christian homophobic authoritarian hellhole and Ukraine is trying to move away from that and be more European and the chuds know if they can just turn off the military support then Ukraine is finished.
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Feb 7, 2023 02:59
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Most of the US money actually *is* spent at home, with US manufacturers to replace equipment that was sent, and a bunch goes to people selling shells all over the world. It even creates jobs: https://mobile.twitter.com/Mortis_Banned/status/1622686239152345098 I think financial help to Ukraine has mostly come from the EU.
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Feb 7, 2023 03:11
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I might be wrong but itd be easiest to solve corruption in ukraine if they werent under an existential invasion
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Feb 7, 2023 06:35
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Defenestrategy posted:I might be wrong but itd be easiest to solve corruption in ukraine if they werent under an existential invasion Would it? It seems this crisis is giving Zelenskyy political cover to go after some powerful people.
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Feb 7, 2023 08:28
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Never waste a good crisis. I mean that sincerely. A crisis weakens the status quo even if the crisis and the status quo are not immediately related. When people have to break out of old structures to deal with one crisis, they become much more likely to take a good look at other ossified structures as well. Entire revolutions have come from this. Guiding that process towards something productive is important, and Zelenskyy may have a political mandate to clean house, if only because of the desire to become an EU member. (I am not well-versed in Ukrainian politics, however)
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Feb 7, 2023 09:08
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Antigravitas posted:Never waste a good crisis. A lot of social improvements in Europe came after WW2, when not just physical but also social and political structures were in ruin. In the best of worlds, Ukraine could in a similar manner make strides in social development after a successful defeat of Russia. Also hopefully through a more responsible collaboration from the West than the cheerleading of Russian cronyism and oligarchs that you saw after the Soviet order fell.
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Feb 7, 2023 09:30
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lilljonas posted:Also hopefully through a more responsible collaboration from the West than the cheerleading of Russian cronyism and oligarchs that you saw after the Soviet order fell. Please god this. Watching the yuppie Street bros head to Moscow to advise on economic reform was a slow motion train wreck
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Feb 7, 2023 09:48
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cgeq posted:Would it? It seems this crisis is giving Zelenskyy political cover to go after some powerful people. You do have a point, in the earnest – Zelenskyy ran on an anti-corruption platform, but his performance until 2022 was nowhere near as inspiring comparatively. Now, however, between the Russian tanks and the western eyes, there's not at all much room for shadow left in the governance of Ukraine. Obviously, it's not without blemishes – the court thing was not fantastic and required some European screaming to straighten out, for instance – but to anyone invested into the factual reality, anti-corruption efforts in Ukraine are unquestionably at their recorded peak today.
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Feb 7, 2023 15:13
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Beffer posted:Please god this. Watching the yuppie Street bros head to Moscow to advise on economic reform was a slow motion train wreck The guys who openly complain about how much even the most pitiful democracy gets in the way of their profits might not be the best people to disentangle a complex system of economic and political codependency? Who could have known!
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Feb 7, 2023 15:15
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Germany is preparing to send 187 Leopard-1 tanks into Ukraine. Background: That's what the mysterious export licence granted by the government was apparently about. Two German companies are essentially unloading their entire mothballed inventory for this. But not everything is roses: Many of the 187 Leos are in bad shape and returning them back to combat-readiness will delay delivery of the first tanks to ca. June, at the earliest. There's also some disagreement about who is gonna pay for the refurbishment, and depending on the individual state of the tanks, many will probably end up as spare part depots for the others. At the end of the day though, it'll probably be still over a hundred tanks more for Ukraine.
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Feb 7, 2023 15:29
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That's very good news. It's likely enough to equip three or four tank battalions. Given the IFV to tank ratios, I'm guessing Ukraine forms more mechanized brigades (two mech battalions and one tank battalion) than tank brigades (two tank battalions and one mech battalion).
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Feb 7, 2023 15:49
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Why even bother with Leo 1's at this point. Plenty of L2A4s lying around.
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Feb 7, 2023 15:50
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Leopard 1s don't even use the good ammo. My guess is they're trying to clear up inventory space.
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Feb 7, 2023 15:54
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MassiveSky posted:Why even bother with Leo 1's at this point. Plenty of L2A4s lying around. Lots of paper Leopards. Pun intended.
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Feb 7, 2023 16:03
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Nfcknblvbl posted:Leopard 1s don't even use the good ammo. My guess is they're trying to clear up inventory space. They're equivalent to the Soviet T-64 tank, so not much better than a death trap at this point.
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Feb 7, 2023 16:05
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SaTaMaS posted:They're equivalent to the Soviet T-64 tank, so not much better than a death trap at this point. Ukraine is still using T-64s
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Feb 7, 2023 16:16
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There are still plenty of battlefield situations where you're better off with a Leo 1 than no tank at all.
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Feb 7, 2023 16:21
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Libluini posted:Ukraine is still using T-64s In fact variants of 64BV are the main tank Ukraine started the war with, what with them having been built in Kharkiv, and with hundreds having been modernized some.
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Feb 7, 2023 16:30
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We cannot risk escalation by sending working tanks. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 7, 2023 16:55
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At least the T-64s have composite armor.
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Feb 7, 2023 17:01
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To be honest a lot of the stuff flying around to kill tanks in this conflict will absolutely kill a T-64 just as handily as a Leopard 1. It's not like a BMD where the average infantry rifle will be poking holes in it, it's basically an up-armored IFV by today's standards where stuff like 30mm autocannons and anti-tank missiles are the threat. It's also gonna kill the crew if the ammo cooks off - like the T-64. Depending on variant the Leopard 1 *does* have decently modern sensors, fire control, and ammunition. So it can find and shoot stuff in useful ways and will probably be pretty useful to have around. As opposed to something like the T-62 which is basically a refined WWII tank design, with at best a set of the cheapest upgrades the early 80's USSR wanted to give reserve division troops. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Feb 7, 2023 |
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Feb 7, 2023 17:11
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Nothing ever pleases you guys huh? When Germany sends 0 tanks you're crying about why they're not sending any. When they send a hundred or so you're crying about why they're not sending more. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 7, 2023 17:14
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Nfcknblvbl posted:At least the T-64s have composite armor. While the Leo1 is wet paper compared to most tanks the base model has over the years been upgraded with various kits which makes it a bit more armored. So depending on the version it might have a tile of composite armor bolted on somewhere!
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Feb 7, 2023 17:15
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It's also faster and has more range than a T-64. Though that depends on how many armor upgrades both of them got, and how much both of them were slowed down by the added weight 
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Feb 7, 2023 17:17
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Nfcknblvbl posted:At least the T-64s have composite armor. At least the Leopard-1 turrets don't blow sky high when hit
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Feb 7, 2023 17:41
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SaTaMaS posted:At least the Leopard-1 turrets don't blow sky high when hit Google "Leopard 1 ammo stowage" real quick lol Turkish 2A4s had turrets tossed when ammo detonated in Syria. Its not a phenomenon you can totally avoid, just make increasingly less likely. Dandywalken fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Feb 7, 2023 |
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Feb 7, 2023 17:42
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MassiveSky posted:Why even bother with Leo 1's at this point. Plenty of L2A4s lying around. There isn't an infinite amount of heavy boom boom in all locations, and if you don't have any [Or enough] AT even an older tank design is loving scary. When someone has a shitload of mediocre tanks you need the ability to hit them everywhere you are defending, or you risk them committing where you aren't ready and just breaking straight through. It's always best to have the absolute top equipment with the best trained troops and the most rock solid plan, but at the end of the day there is a bar called "Good enough" and if you clear it you win. Worst case you just....don't use equipment you don't need.
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Feb 7, 2023 17:45
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SaTaMaS posted:At least the Leopard-1 turrets don't blow sky high when hit Yeah, about that...
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Feb 7, 2023 17:55
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German defense minister visits Kiew, promises more tanks. -The 100+ Leo-1s are now fully confirmed, the Leo-2s are supposed to number 60, when all deliveries are made -The first Leo-2 has already arrived in Kiew Edit: It's not fully made clear, but the way the article is worded seems to say that the 187 Leopard-1s from industry stockpiles are in addition to that Libluini fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Feb 7, 2023 |
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Feb 7, 2023 18:06
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Libluini posted:Edit: It's not fully made clear, but the way the article is worded seems to say that the 187 Leopard-1s from industry stockpiles are in addition to that Scholtz's Cat is a classic quantum political thought experiment.
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Feb 7, 2023 18:17
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I can see the T62's and Leo1's being used counter battery resistant mobile short range arty. You have to hit them bang on to stop them retreating out of counter battery fire and likely resist smaller loitering munitions that is messing up the likes of the M777 and other towed arty. Maybe also to do a bit of overwatch from 5 km back where only missiles and PGM have enough whack to take them out effectively.
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Feb 7, 2023 18:22
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All this talk about old tanks has me thinking, what is Russia using in dedicated AT roles? We've seen all the videos of Ukraine using a hodge-podge of infantry level AT weapons, including western designs. What is Russia using? Do they have a gun assigned to the role by doctrine? What are their infantry level AT weapons?
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Feb 7, 2023 18:29
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RPG7 still has nasty warheads. Plenty of deicated ATGMs. There are def going to be dead Abrams/Leopards, but thats peer warfare for you. Hopefully they are effective enough to make a difference.
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Feb 7, 2023 18:32
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Charliegrs posted:The "Ukraine is corrupt" angle has been pushed by chuds ever since the war started. But they don't actually care about corruption. They didn't care about Trump's corruption, and they don't care about Russia's corruption. They're putting it out there with Ukraine to make the narrative seem like the US spending all it's money (in reality a incredibly low amount of our military spending) to militarily support a corrupt foreign country instead of spending it here at home which lol that was never going to happen anyway. Add to that chuds want Russia to win because it's a white Christian homophobic authoritarian hellhole and Ukraine is trying to move away from that and be more European and the chuds know if they can just turn off the military support then Ukraine is finished. I think they (the chuds) are just mindlessly repeating what the man on the television says and trying to "own" democrats. They are very much ok with "European" values like murdering refugees in the Mediterranean, beating up the survivors at the land borders, and the ever increasing amount of far right governments (Sweden and Italy being the most recent). Can't also forget the rampant TERF propaganda exported from the UK (with the help of the US). Mulva posted:There isn't an infinite amount of heavy boom boom in all locations, and if you don't have any [Or enough] AT even an older tank design is loving scary. When someone has a shitload of mediocre tanks you need the ability to hit them everywhere you are defending, or you risk them committing where you aren't ready and just breaking straight through. It's always best to have the absolute top equipment with the best trained troops and the most rock solid plan, but at the end of the day there is a bar called "Good enough" and if you clear it you win. Yeah, quantity has a quality of its own; better to have another +180 armored (as light as they are) guns available than not. And depending on how deep the relatively "well stocked" parts of the Russian lines go, after an initial breakthrough a Leo 1 will kill rear echelon infantry as good as anything else.
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Feb 7, 2023 18:36
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Pook Good Mook posted:All this talk about old tanks has me thinking, what is Russia using in dedicated AT roles? We've seen all the videos of Ukraine using a hodge-podge of infantry level AT weapons, including western designs. What is Russia using? Do they have a gun assigned to the role by doctrine? What are their infantry level AT weapons? Much of the same as Ukraine, more or less. They lack western fire-and-forget missiles like NLAW and Javelin but otherwise they have some very capable ATGM's and RPG's. There's lots of the stuff at every level, ranging from lightweight disposable launchers that can take out an IFV to heavy tandem warheads that will make any tank hurt.
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Feb 7, 2023 18:40
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There's no announced delivery date for the Leo1s yet are there? Are there even training/maintenance packages discussed or are they just going to ship them and hope they aren't needed? Would be interesting to see what the Ukrainians are actively using by this time next year.
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Feb 7, 2023 18:44
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They've got a whole bunch of RPG models (single shot disposable launchers) that are nastier than RPG-7, with tandem warheads to deal with active defenses and stand of armour, but the main issue should be ATGMs, the most modern is the Kornet, which is at the base a late Soviet design, but only produced since the late 90s and updated in 2010s. It's been used a bunch by the Iraqi army, ISIS, Syria, Hezbollah... It was used against Iraqi Abrams tanks as well. Well, that means pretty much everybody has used it in the Middle East against everybody else because Russia sucks at export controls, so it should be a well known quantity to Western experts for a number of years.
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Feb 7, 2023 18:48
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steinrokkan posted:They've got a whole bunch of RPG models (single shot disposable launchers) that are nastier than RPG-7, with tandem warheads to deal with active defenses and stand of armour, but the main issue should be ATGMs, the most modern is the Kornet, which is at the base a late Soviet design, but only produced since the late 90s and updated in 2010s. It's been used a bunch by the Iraqi army, ISIS, Syria, Hezbollah... It was used against Iraqi Abrams tanks as well. Well, that means pretty much everybody has used it in the Middle East against everybody else because Russia sucks at export controls, so it should be a well known quantity to Western experts for a number of years. Its weird we havent seen more Kornet tbh. I was expecting it to be common, but Konkurs soldiers on. I guess thats kind of a theme at this point though
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Feb 7, 2023 18:49
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Libluini posted:
https://mobile.twitter.com/oleksiireznikov/status/1622981742368854016
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Feb 7, 2023 18:51
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