|
We can't become a true Class-Dredd Megacounty if we aren't able to have exurban Los Angelinos tube in from Henderson in under 30 minutes!
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2023 03:42
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 23:11 |
|
|
Tuxedo Gin posted:They should just tunnel under it. Yeah, it's expensive, but others have done it. Taiwan's HSR starts with ~9 miles of tunnel under city denser than LA that lets them connect to Taipei Station. Both Taiwan and Japan are very mountainous and their high speed rail projects involved a lot of tunneling. The problem is, and will always be, that America is allergic to non-car infrastructure spending. It's also that for Howard Jarvis reasons the state is legally obligated to take the lowest bid on contractors
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2023 04:38
|
|
|
Tuxedo Gin posted:They should just tunnel under it. Yeah, it's expensive, but others have done it. Taiwan's HSR starts with ~9 miles of tunnel under city denser than LA that lets them connect to Taipei Station. Both Taiwan and Japan are very mountainous and their high speed rail projects involved a lot of tunneling. The problem is, and will always be, that America is allergic to non-car infrastructure spending. That's what CAHSR plans to do. Since the state is already planning to build it themselves, I doubt the vegas brighline is going to lift a finger to get into the city until the tunnel is done.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2023 04:42
|
|
|
Vincent Van Goatse posted:Watch out for Powder Gangers. I have never played fallout las vegas but maybe it'd make some good research I think I have a ps3 somewhere that still works...
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2023 08:16
|
|
|
Tuxedo Gin posted:They should just tunnel under it. Yeah, it's expensive, but others have done it. Taiwan's HSR starts with ~9 miles of tunnel under city denser than LA that lets them connect to Taipei Station. Both Taiwan and Japan are very mountainous and their high speed rail projects involved a lot of tunneling. The problem is, and will always be, that America is allergic to non-car infrastructure spending. yeah, your right, but it really is mind boggling how wide the full-on urban sprawl is in the la metro area. downtown la to rancho cucamonga is like 33 miles as the crow flies, and it's pretty much non-stop city the entire way honestly tunneling under the angeles mountains and using palmdale as a primary hub makes a lot of sense, every other direction is city for dozens of miles
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2023 08:31
|
|
|
GhostofJohnMuir posted:i mean, unless they convert an existing rail corridor it seems like there's no way in hell you get close to union station. connecting to an existing line out in the boonies is the only way to avoid the impassable morass of real estate purchasing and legal challenges you'd face trying to bulldoze through the urban sprawl You would need to acquire either the Metrolink Pasadena or San Gabriel subs. San Gabriel is a much straighter shot but it runs between the 10 and getting more track there would require an act of congress and ripping out some freeway. Idk if they plan for their HSR train to be able to run on standard but if it could then you could do 70 ish to union from some theoretical connection around upland.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2023 15:42
|
|
|
Dr. Fraiser Chain posted:Los Angeles doesn't have the density for rail. Consider that no-one would ride Cheyenne Wyoming to Manhattan Kansas, ergo it wouldn't work in SoCal If it's worth building a highway, it's worth building rail to transport those people.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2023 06:28
|
|
|
also los angeles already supports rail lol they built more transit infrastructure in the 2010s than any other big city in the us
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2023 07:16
|
|
|
gonna ride the super train to vegas ftw
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2023 09:27
|
|
|
Riding the bullet train all over Japan and then hearing folks complain about how impossible it is to do in CA is hilarious. Just like government healthcare, how in the world could the US do it even though it's already been done all over the world?
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2023 14:29
|
|
|
super train better have AC
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2023 15:21
|
|
|
Well, yeah, you'd lose too much voltage with DC
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2023 15:36
|
|
|
VorpalBunny posted:Riding the bullet train all over Japan and then hearing folks complain about how impossible it is to do in CA is hilarious. Just like government healthcare, how in the world could the US do it even though it's already been done all over the world? It's because the US is just a gigantic ponzi scheme masquerading as a country.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2023 17:55
|
|
|
VorpalBunny posted:Riding the bullet train all over Japan and then hearing folks complain about how impossible it is to do in CA is hilarious. Just like government healthcare, how in the world could the US do it even though it's already been done all over the world? Japan has 3.5x higher population density than California. I mean, we should still be able to do it. But there are important differences.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2023 18:12
|
|
|
The shinkansen has multiple stations in cities with under 40,000 people. Japan is dense on paper, because Tokyo is insanely dense.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2023 18:18
|
|
|
Muir posted:Japan has 3.5x higher population density than California. I mean, we should still be able to do it. But there are important differences. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2023 18:22
|
|
|
Muir posted:Japan has 3.5x higher population density than California. I mean, we should still be able to do it. But there are important differences. A cat saved a station from being closed and it ended up bringing in tons of tourist money and visibility to the ailing station. Lmao density FilthyImp fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Mar 6, 2023 |
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2023 18:27
|
|
|
Thanks for the thoughtful contribution to the conversation. Which part was wrong? That Japan has a higher population density than California? Or that we should be able to build high speed rail anyway?
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2023 18:30
|
|
|
Muir posted:Thanks for the thoughtful contribution to the conversation. Which part was wrong? That Japan has a higher population density than California? Or that we should be able to build high speed rail anyway? The reasons we can’t have nice things are entirely political and every other reason is a lie that’s been fed to you on purpose.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2023 18:34
|
|
|
Centrist Committee posted:The reasons we can’t have nice things are entirely political and every other reason is a lie that’s been fed to you on purpose. Muir posted:I mean, we should still be able to do it. Muir posted:Or that we should be able to build high speed rail anyway?
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2023 18:37
|
|
|
Your "but there are important differences" clause has left everyone waiting for you to drag out America's Love Affair with the Car or some other bullshit reason for why Japan can build rail but we can't.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2023 18:45
|
|
|
Because the density metric includes large swaths of California that won't be served by rail. No one is running a line from Mono Lake to Lassan. America is full of public land in the west that drives down population density numbers. The urban core of CA is plenty dense for rail up the coast and through the central valley.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2023 18:47
|
|
|
Weembles posted:Your "but there are important differences" clause has left everyone waiting for you to drag out America's Love Affair with the Car or some other bullshit reason for why Japan can build rail but we can't. Why are you waiting for me to say "but we can't" when I've literally said that we should be able to? I'm just tired of people gesturing at Japan or other places and leaving the rest as an exercise to the reader. The differences are important and pretending that there aren't challenges in California's population/geography is silly. Dr. Fraiser Chain posted:Because the density metric includes large swaths of California that won't be served by rail. No one is running a line from Mono Lake to Lassan. America is full of public land in the west that drives down population density numbers. The urban core of CA is plenty dense for rail up the coast and through the central valley. There's literally posters on this page touting Japanese rail service that benefited three people. Or a cat.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2023 18:51
|
|
|
Muir posted:There's literally posters on this page touting Japanese rail service that benefited three people. Or a cat. That's literally the point of their post, though - Japan could build HSR to benefit three people and a cat, while the USA sits back saying that it's too hard / not dense enough / whatever. To spell it out: Argument: "The USA isn't dense enough to make HSR doable." Rebuttal 1: "If you take Tokyo out of the calculation for Japan, the rest of the country isn't that dense and yet they still got it done. In fact, they served three people and a cat with HSR. What's our excuse?" Rebuttal 2: "You don't need to serve the low-density areas like Mono County (even though other countries can serve three people and a cat). Just serve the high-density areas and it's still better than what we currently have. What's our excuse?"
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2023 19:07
|
|
|
Muir posted:I'm just tired of people gesturing at Japan or other places and leaving the rest as an exercise to the reader. The differences are important and pretending that there aren't challenges in California's population/geography is silly. What are those challenges? Gesturing at California isn't an argument either. And as far as Geography, I'd urge you to look at the CAHSR route and then at Japan and Western Europe, or China.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2023 19:07
|
|
|
All right, I was wrong to imply that there are any real barriers beyond political will. I did find this report Congress prepared back in 2000 comparing the proposed California high speed rail to the Shinkansen (https://transweb.sjsu.edu/sites/default/files/pdfs/2000kagiyama.pdf) and this line made me want to cry: "In comparing the difficult mountainous and geologic terrain along the Shinkansen lines with the CHSRA alignment and physical terrain, the cost to construct the network should be less than the CHSRA’s estimate of $25 billion. Once in construction, the timetable to complete the segment between San Jose and Los Angeles should be less than the CHSRA business plan’s schedule of seven years. The Tokaido line was constructed in five years and in much more difficult terrain." What are people's thoughts on why our cost per mile is so much higher?
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2023 19:18
|
|
|
Muir posted:What are people's thoughts on why our cost per mile is so much higher?
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2023 19:23
|
|
|
Muir posted:All right, I was wrong to imply that there are any real barriers beyond political will. Corporate capture of public agencies, the San Andreas fault, too much power in the hands of private land owners, pussy democrats
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2023 19:25
|
|
|
Muir posted:All right, I was wrong to imply that there are any real barriers beyond political will. Late stage capitalism. HS2 over in the UK is over cost, so is Japan's maglev project. The Shinkansen also ran heavily over when it was built and had the same kind of complaints. People always complain about major rail building costs. But yes, also grift, lots of grift.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2023 19:26
|
|
|
Muir posted:All right, I was wrong to imply that there are any real barriers beyond political will. federated government systems kinda suck for big projects. the unitary government of japan can say "municipality, we are building a rail line here, deal with it", whereas the US requires you to negotiate with every drat local government along the way, to a degree
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2023 19:46
|
|
|
Muir posted:What are people's thoughts on why our cost per mile is so much higher? The NYU Transit Costs Project just delivered a report on why smaller scale subways tend to be ridiculously more expensive per mile in the U.S. that you might find interesting. My main takeaway from their conclusions as it’s relevant to HSR is a lack of standardization and centralization of rail projects means that we constantly have to start from scratch when it comes to building up the institutions that can then deploy rail. If you’re constantly getting ready instead of staying ready (to paraphrase the immortal Chi Chi DeVayne), then you’re effectively creating bespoke solutions that are always going to be more costly than say if we had a U.S. High Speed Rail Authority that had built up expertise and staff over decades and had optimized the efficiency of technology development and deployment. The other reality I haven’t seen mentioned is the funding + inflation problem: the need to constantly go hat in hand to fund projects and/or wait for funding before you can begin work on the whole project’s actual construction reduces project efficiency as inflation quietly gobbles away at your spending power. Each time overrun thereby produces compounding cost overruns which then means waiting for more funding which means - etc. CA HSR still doesn’t even have the next tranche of funding it needs to even complete the project, so it can only plan and execute so far into the future before it’s running on pure hope that full funding materializes. Not efficient fuel for project construction. EDIT: Oh, and don’t forget that each time you need to pass the hat you look more incompetent AND the number of dollars you’re asking for has gone up by an inevitably inflated degree which seems extra scary and will always produce a more hostile political environment for your request. Which means more delays. Combed Thunderclap fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Mar 6, 2023 |
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2023 21:20
|
|
|
Sundae posted:That's literally the point of their post, though - Japan could build HSR to benefit three people and a cat, while the USA sits back saying that it's too hard / not dense enough / whatever. this is either a misunderstanding or a mischaracterization of what's been posted in the thread. japan did not build out high speed rail to serve areas with barely any people, it maintained some spur lines and seldomly used stations on the electric railway built back in the early 20th century. it's a good lesson for america on maintaining services in shrinking rural communities, but it's not really applicable to the conversation on california's attempt to build out hsr
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 01:38
|
|
|
It's really funny watching documentaries about the shinkansen because every single excuse paraded out to kill CA HSR was used to try to shut down the shinkansen project. But.... they built it anyway. And it is a fantastic system that continues to get expansion, though some expansions have been axed.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 02:16
|
|
|
It's also funny to me because going from north county san diego down to the city via the coaster is really pleasant, and I always see people taking the trains when I am (which, to be fair, is relatively rare). I far, far prefer taking the coaster down to san diego in lieu of parking because gently caress parking in the city. Give me more options for rail and I am all for using them. Hell, I'd love to visit more of LA, but driving there is a nightmare, so I just avoid it as a rule.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2023 03:07
|
|
|
The drive from LA to SF is just The Worst and really is a prime HSR candidate. Unless you take the 1 and then it's like a billion hours longer, but pretty.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2023 03:14
|
|
|
Dirk the Average posted:It's also funny to me because going from north county san diego down to the city via the coaster is really pleasant, and I always see people taking the trains when I am (which, to be fair, is relatively rare). I far, far prefer taking the coaster down to san diego in lieu of parking because gently caress parking in the city. Give me more options for rail and I am all for using them. Hell, I'd love to visit more of LA, but driving there is a nightmare, so I just avoid it as a rule. The coaster is the best. Not only because it’s useful and nice to ride but they’ve also resisted the post covid urge to cut back on service. Instead they increased frequency and, the last I heard, are going ahead with the plan to build a station for the fairgrounds.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2023 03:18
|
|
|
well japan did some pretty crazy stuff during ww2 so thnk about that before u talk about their epic super train system,,, hmm??
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2023 03:19
|
|
|
Well by that metric HSR super Ultra Mode only unlocks after the big one gives us a do-over on this whole "city" concept
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2023 05:25
|
|
|
my mans "big dick" gavvy is putting the boot to the panders and starting beefquote:“California won’t be doing business with @walgreens – or any company that cowers to the extremists and puts women’s lives at risk,” the Democratic governor tweeted. “We’re done.” https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/07/politics/gavin-newsom-walgreens-california-abortion-drug/index.html
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2023 07:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 23:11 |
|
|
incoherent posted:my mans "big dick" gavvy is putting the boot to the panders and starting beef Gonna be a whole lot of pissed off people if MediCAL suddenly makes people change pharmacies away from Walgreens
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2023 08:02
|
|
