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Powered Descent posted:This. If you're going to continue watching, the B5 blind watch thread will be overjoyed to have your impressions of it, whether that means detailed reviews of each episode or just vague thoughts now and then. To be fair, Spacedock is similar in scale to Babylon 5, and if Spackdock isn't hollow, would be much larger in terms of population capacity. DS9 as a station was always actually meant to be relatively small and backwater. (Although so was Babylon 5, it was kinda strange we never really saw other stations at similar or larger scale. They should've recoloured and reused the Babylon 4 model as a station in orbit of Earth or something) Then again I've always subscribed to Spacedock being hollow and mainly a, well, spacedock. I do love a giant orbital habitat, though. Fuckin' love Starbase Yorktown. IShallRiseAgain posted:To be fair, the show is really bad at showing scale. We only get a handful of shots that show its a full fledged O'Neil Cylinder. It took me a very long time to realise the 'painting' on the back wall of all the offices was meant to be a view out over the interior of the station and not just a painting. It's kinda weird that there hasn't been that much art of the interior in the years since by fans that I can find, but maybe I'm just spoiled by Star Trek's fanbase. Fun fact: they got a decent way into building a miniature for the interior because they didn't think they could pull it off in computer, but had to abandon it because $$$.  
MikeJF fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Mar 13, 2023 |
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Mar 13, 2023 03:37
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MikeJF posted:To be fair, Spacedock is similar in scale to Babylon 5, and if Spackdock isn't hollow, would be much larger in terms of population capacity. DS9 as a station was always actually meant to be relatively small and backwater. (Although so was Babylon 5, it was kinda strange we never really saw other stations at similar or larger scale. They should've recoloured and reused the Babylon 4 model as a station in orbit of Earth or something) Babylon 5 can both be a massive orbital habitat by B5 galactic standards, and a backwater all at once. It's only got, what, a quarter-million people in it? My read is that large-scale orbital habitats simply aren't common in the B5 setting; most stuff is done either planetside, or in orbit around an inhabited planet. Babylon 5's a special case because it's meant to be neutral-ish* territory that happens to be relatively equidistant to more important locations. I think one or two of the early Babylon station attempts weren't even sabotaged, it just simply failed (I think "collapsed" is the term they used), and this makes sense to me if nobody's really bothered to build something that big before. *yes, the station and surrounding sector are EA territory, but it doesn't appear that there's really anything that happens around there that isn't the station itself
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Mar 13, 2023 05:06
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IShallRiseAgain posted:To be fair, the show is really bad at showing scale. We only get a handful of shots that show its a full fledged O'Neil Cylinder. I feel like a big part of this (and other scale issues, the Omegas just don't feel nearly as big to me as they allegedly are) is texture quality, which of course is largely a function of the memory available to their rendering computers.
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Mar 13, 2023 05:08
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Eh, it still didn't feel that big in Lost Tales. But one big thing that the lower detail and texture quality stops you on is it limits how close you can get, which means you can't easily do shots from near the surface with lenses that deliberately emphasise scale. (When they did do closeup shots I believe they tended to only be showing a smaller more detailed sub-area model).
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Mar 13, 2023 05:35
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cenotaph posted:I was very surprised at how much I enjoyed Babylon 5 when I finally watched it a few years ago. When I was watching it I was kind of dreading that it was going to be a childish good vs evil conflict and I was happy that it wasn't. I thought some of it dragged a bit, but that was mostly season one, iirc. I started a rewatch a few years back and burned/chickened out a little in season 4, cause it's 25 episodes a season and unlike Trek, I don't really feel like you can skip episodes, it feels like each episode pushes the story a little. Still really good though.
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Mar 13, 2023 07:47
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All this talk puts me in a mood of "We really need a sci-fi show set on an O'Neil Cylinder." The stories you could tell on a setting like this are endless, and we have the vfx tech to pull it off realistically. Of course in the era of "Modern TV" it would have to have some gimmick or overarching plot to the point where the setting became meaningless background. It would be daring in it's own way though to have a show that was just wide eyed optimism and futurism of "humans living in space" and have their travails and adaptations ne the focus of the plot.
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Mar 13, 2023 08:29
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Set it on an O'Neill colony ship, you can have plenty of Prestige TV drama just from the challenges such a setting would provide and the exploration of the society. (Salty the Expanse stopped showing us the inside of Medina station, IIRC in the books they eventually fill out dirt and get the originally intended plants and stuff inside going after it becomes a static station instead of a colony ship. before it gets blipped out of existence by angry aliens) MikeJF fucked around with this message at 08:55 on Mar 13, 2023 |
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Mar 13, 2023 08:46
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BTW Michelle Yeoh got an Oscar for the Best Actress last night, so if the Section 31 series with her wasn't dead before, its definitely dead by now. So this leaves us only with the starfleet academy show for future after Picard and DISCO goes away?
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Mar 13, 2023 09:14
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Worf Show when, Coward Paramount?
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Mar 13, 2023 09:17
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Astroman posted:All this talk puts me in a mood of "We really need a sci-fi show set on an O'Neil Cylinder." I just want a proper, big screen version of Rendezvous With Rama that captures the absolute "holy poo poo!" feeling that the book did - but I feel the time for a film like that has passed. There's no way it would work with a modern audience and would need some bullshit drama inserted into the story because wide eyed wonder isn't enough for a film.
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Mar 13, 2023 09:17
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Dog_Meat posted:and would need some bullshit drama inserted into the story Rama sequels!
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Mar 13, 2023 09:33
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I love space habs of all sizes but I would love a show depicting something on a scale achievable with real technology to do rotating settlements more often in general. I loved The Expanse but I felt they never really pushed it.
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Mar 13, 2023 09:37
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Yeah, in civilian terms space in the Expanse was the slums, so there wasn't much in terms of neat habitats. Book spoilers: The nicer stuff would've come after the 20 year time jump between books six and seven, with the belters gaining political power as the transport union and building the Void Cities, which were large scale mobile rotating habitats with hundreds of thousands of residents. Although even with those we barely saw them, since Laconia cruised in and took the action away from the old Sol powers.
MikeJF fucked around with this message at 09:55 on Mar 13, 2023 |
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Mar 13, 2023 09:51
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Astroman posted:All this talk puts me in a mood of "We really need a sci-fi show set on an O'Neil Cylinder."
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Mar 13, 2023 10:50
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We believe that the minimum diameter for full comfort at 1G of spin gravity, totally eliminating corolis-induced issues from the effect's gradient, is about 400-450m or so, but that drops a fair bit if you're willing to go with somewhat lower gravities or possibly stomach moderate discomfort to get used to. We're not sure, though, either in terms of being certain about the numbers or if we can get used to it at smaller sizes. It's likely if we do ever build rotating gravity stations or craft our early ones will be dumbells and not rings, in order to get the necessary diameters. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 12:06 on Mar 13, 2023 |
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Mar 13, 2023 11:58
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Astroman posted:All this talk puts me in a mood of "We really need a sci-fi show set on an O'Neil Cylinder." *Another one  (They didn't show this kind of shot much because I imagine they wanted CGI time to be stuff that was necessary rather than just background detail) Dog_Meat posted:I just want a proper, big screen version of Rendezvous With Rama that captures the absolute "holy poo poo!" feeling that the book did - but I feel the time for a film like that has passed. There's no way it would work with a modern audience and would need some bullshit drama inserted into the story because wide eyed wonder isn't enough for a film. Denis Villeneuve is attached to direct one, which is probably the best chance of something like that we're going to get for the foreseeable
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Mar 13, 2023 13:12
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MikeJF posted:Rama sequels! I completely forgot that I read about half of the sequel and bailed out hard for that very reason. Christ, it was bad. Was it really Arthur C Clarke co-writing with some hack? Or did they just stick his name on it for legitimacy? (sorry - derailing - ignore me)
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Mar 13, 2023 14:42
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Probably the best glossy O'Neill cylinder imagery you're going to get is in the Gundam shows, although in a lot of cases those were just... landscapes, the way the shots were framed. Which makes sense, of course, with a big enough cylinder. This does mean that if they actually make a live-action Netflix Gundam or something, they might actually do the cylinder shots.
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Mar 13, 2023 14:48
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Dog_Meat posted:I completely forgot that I read about half of the sequel and bailed out hard for that very reason. Christ, it was bad. Was it really Arthur C Clarke co-writing with some hack? Or did they just stick his name on it for legitimacy? I wouldn't call Gentry Lee a hack--the man has done incredible work in the field of spaceflight (particularly Mars missions) and is a senior director at JPL--but, yes, he wrote the Rama sequels and Clarke just put his name on them to boost sales.
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Mar 13, 2023 14:56
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IShallRiseAgain posted:To be fair, the show is really bad at showing scale. We only get a handful of shots that show its a full fledged O'Neil Cylinder. I think one of the places where B5 really shines is in being willing to constantly show that the station is packed full of people with lots of crowd scenes full of extras in elaborate alien prosthetics. It definitely feels a lot bigger than DS9. Astroman posted:All this talk puts me in a mood of "We really need a sci-fi show set on an O'Neil Cylinder." This is one of those things where the Gundam series is Actually one of the most "realistic" sci-fi franchises out there, since they incorporate a lot of the old speculative ideas about living in space, no artificial gravity, just spinning colonies. On spaceships you often would see people floating by or needing the assistance of a little handle thing to help them scoot through hallways.   
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Mar 13, 2023 17:08
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SlothfulCobra posted:I think one of the places where B5 really shines is in being willing to constantly show that the station is packed full of people with lots of crowd scenes full of extras in elaborate alien prosthetics. It definitely feels a lot bigger than DS9. It does, and four episodes in it seems like Sinclair/Garibaldi are less in control of the underworld elements in B5 (e.g: the insectoid black market dealer that's popped up a couple of times) than Sisko. I actually kind of like that, because it makes for even more of an interesting atmosphere than DS9.
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Mar 13, 2023 17:10
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WFM seems to be set in centrifuge rings mounted on asteroids, though they haven't gone into the details much. I always wondered, how do you get in and out of such things? I guess you can build the structure so there's a hub with access ways, and then just make it so anything docking with the hub has to match rotation.
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Mar 13, 2023 17:57
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SlothfulCobra posted:This is one of those things where the Gundam series is Actually one of the most "realistic" sci-fi franchises out there, since they incorporate a lot of the old speculative ideas about living in space, no artificial gravity, just spinning colonies. On spaceships you often would see people floating by or needing the assistance of a little handle thing to help them scoot through hallways. At some points UC Gundam does hew pretty closely to the old "introduce one or two new technologies and see how the world changes" SF aesthetic, it's just that those two technologies - the Minovski Particle and Newtypeism - are heavily massaged to make space combat in giant human-shaped vehicles an attractive proposition I think other Gundam series did the other two High Frontier station types at some point, but Universal Century was always about the O'Neills. Even when they were being converted into staggeringly huge laser chambers or dropped on Australia.
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Mar 13, 2023 18:06
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I really haven't kept up on all the iterations of Gundam, but also it was hard to find shots of Gundam space colonies with visible Gundams inside. Space colonies are just too drat big.F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:It does, and four episodes in it seems like Sinclair/Garibaldi are less in control of the underworld elements in B5 (e.g: the insectoid black market dealer that's popped up a couple of times) than Sisko. I actually kind of like that, because it makes for even more of an interesting atmosphere than DS9. Yeah B5 has a very extensive underworld. There's people who came to the station and just hit hard times, and there's people who came to the station looking to score. On DS9 it feels like it's just Quark. Nobody's on DS9 who doesn't want to be, and even though Bajor is explicitly outside the Federation and going through hard times trying to recover from Cardassian occupation, something like Brown Sector is too distopian to exist in Star Trek.
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Mar 13, 2023 18:11
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Phy posted:At some points UC Gundam does hew pretty closely to the old "introduce one or two new technologies and see how the world changes" SF aesthetic, it's just that those two technologies - the Minovski Particle and Newtypeism - are heavily massaged to make space combat in giant human-shaped vehicles an attractive proposition SlothfulCobra posted:Yeah B5 has a very extensive underworld. There's people who came to the station and just hit hard times, and there's people who came to the station looking to score. On DS9 it feels like it's just Quark.
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Mar 13, 2023 18:15
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I watched Civil Defense yesterday and Dukat said something like "are you willing to sacrifice the lives of 2,000 people" rather than grant a Cardassian garrison on DS9. Also is Civil Defense a comedy episode?
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Mar 13, 2023 18:28
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Dukat is very funny so yes
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Mar 13, 2023 18:34
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Civil Defense is imo in the same vein as TNG’s Disaster. That is, they are both hilarious.
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Mar 13, 2023 18:45
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Mar 13, 2023 18:48
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I can't even unicycle normally and Gates McFadden is there doing it in heels and stirrup pants. That's some King poo poo
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Mar 13, 2023 18:49
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She was the director of choreography for Labyrinth and Muppets take Manhattan, she is indeed cool as poo poo
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Mar 13, 2023 18:57
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zoux posted:I watched Civil Defense yesterday and Dukat said something like "are you willing to sacrifice the lives of 2,000 people" rather than grant a Cardassian garrison on DS9. It should be. The moment where Dukat tries to leave and the computer starts broadcasting the "I knew you were going to abandon your post like a bitch" message was pure Curb Your Enthusiasm gold.
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Mar 13, 2023 18:57
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This is how she practiced for the Muppets. By unicycle. e: I'm looking for a woman who can choreograph Muppets and sing and dance and ride a unicycle in heels and stirrup pants. The mayor: If she can balance the budget, I'll hire her!
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Mar 13, 2023 19:05
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SlothfulCobra posted:I really haven't kept up on all the iterations of Gundam, but also it was hard to find shots of Gundam space colonies with visible Gundams inside. Space colonies are just too drat big. The Federation pre and post-Dominion war is also several multipliers of ten ahead on the power curve against "beaten to the level of non-existence" Earthforce just a decade or so (?) prior to B5 taking place. And everyone knows that the cool underworld is in Qo'noS, not anywhere where the feds run the show.
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Mar 13, 2023 21:17
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Der Kyhe posted:And everyone knows that the cool underworld is in Qo'noS, not anywhere where the feds run the show. Qo'noS has giant courtrooms just FULL of Klingons. They're not lawless, they have all sorts of laws!
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Mar 13, 2023 21:19
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Der Kyhe posted:The Federation pre and post-Dominion war is also several multipliers of ten ahead on the power curve against "beaten to the level of non-existence" Earthforce just a decade or so (?) prior to B5 taking place. I'm presuming that later on in the series we'll get some kind of explanation for why it was that the Mimbari suddenly pulled out and spared the human race.
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Mar 13, 2023 21:25
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:I'm presuming that later on in the series we'll get some kind of explanation for why it was that the Mimbari suddenly pulled out and spared the human race. in general when JMS sets something up he will pay it off even if it takes a few seasons
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Mar 13, 2023 21:31
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:I'm presuming that later on in the series we'll get some kind of explanation for why it was that the Mimbari suddenly pulled out and spared the human race. You most definitely will. And its a wild ride when it hits you and you get the full implications of what just happened. EDIT: If you are first watching B5, just do as told by this thread and do not watch the In the Beginning tv-movie before you are done with S4. Follow the first airing dates like it was court-ordered decision. JMS did the series in the exact order you should watch it, he actually wrote most if not all of it before the first episode was filming, and unlike some occasions, B5 actually needs you to follow the episode order also outside the main series. Der Kyhe fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Mar 13, 2023 |
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Mar 13, 2023 21:34
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SlothfulCobra posted:I think one of the places where B5 really shines is in being willing to constantly show that the station is packed full of people with lots of crowd scenes full of extras in elaborate alien prosthetics. It definitely feels a lot bigger than DS9. 
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Mar 13, 2023 23:15
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In the episode I watched this afternoon (1x04), the archaeology guy's assistant was wearing slacks with a belt that looked straight out of a 1994 JC Penney catalog. Being a Star Trek fan, though, I don't know how much room I have to talk about bad costuming.
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Mar 14, 2023 00:42
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