Gundam Thread 5: That's no Anime, boy! No Anime!

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Gripweed: Nov 8, 2018; ASK ME ABOUT MY
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chiasaur11 posted:

Bright Noa found a cheat code for war crimes.

new thread title

# ? Sep 22, 2023 23:47

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# ? May 11, 2024 13:25

tsob: Sep 26, 2006; Chalalala~

Checking again, I'm pretty sure none of the things listed constitute actual war crimes as defined by the Geneva Convention, and the Rome Statutes of the International Criminal Court that basically superseded those conventions as I understand it.

The Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court posted:

Article 8
War Crimes

The Court shall have jurisdiction in respect of war crimes in particular when committed as part of a plan or policy or as part of a large-scale commission of such crimes.
For the purpose of this Statute, �war crimes� means: Grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, namely, any of the following acts against persons or property protected under the provisions of the relevant Geneva Convention:

Wilful killing

Torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments;

Wilfully causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or health;

Extensive destruction and appropriation of property, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly;

Compelling a prisoner of war or other protected person to serve in the forces of a hostile Power;

Wilfully depriving a prisoner of war or other protected person of the rights of fair and regular trial;

Unlawful deportation or transfer or unlawful confinement;

Taking of hostages.

Other serious violations of the laws and customs applicable in international armed conflict, within the established framework of international law, namely, any of the following acts:

Intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population as such or against individual civilians not taking direct part in hostilities;

Intentionally directing attacks against civilian objects, that is, objects which are not military objectives;

Intentionally directing attacks against personnel, installations, material, units or vehicles involved in a humanitarian assistance or peacekeeping mission in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, as long as they are entitled to the protection given to civilians or civilian objects under the international law of armed conflict;

Intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated;

Attacking or bombarding, by whatever means, towns, villages, dwellings or buildings which are undefended and which are not military objectives;

Killing or wounding a combatant who, having laid down his arms or having no longer means of defense, has surrendered at discretion;

Making improper use of a flag of truce, of the flag or of the military insignia and uniform of the enemy or of the United Nations, as well as of the distinctive emblems of the Geneva Conventions, resulting in death or serious personal injury;

The transfer, directly or indirectly, by the Occupying Power of parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies, or the deportation or transfer of all or parts of the population of the occupied territory within or outside this territory;

Intentionally directing attacks against buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals and places where the sick and wounded are collected, provided they are not military objectives;

Subjecting persons who are in the power of an adverse party to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are neither justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of the person concerned nor carried out in his or her interest, and which cause death to or seriously endanger the health of such person or persons;

Killing or wounding treacherously individuals belonging to the hostile nation or army;

Declaring that no quarter will be given;

Destroying or seizing the enemy's property unless such destruction or seizure be imperatively demanded by the necessities of war;

Declaring abolished, suspended or inadmissible in a court of law the rights and actions of the nationals of the hostile party;

Compelling the nationals of the hostile party to take part in the operations of war directed against their own country, even if they were in the belligerent's service before the commencement of the war;

Pillaging a town or place, even when taken by assault;

Employing poison or poisoned weapons;

Employing asphyxiating, poisonous or other gases, and all analogous liquids, materials or devices;

Employing bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core or is pierced with incisions;

Employing weapons, projectiles and material and methods of warfare which are of a nature to cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering or which are inherently indiscriminate in violation of the international law of armed conflict, provided that such weapons, projectiles and material and methods of warfare are the subject of a comprehensive prohibition and are included in an annex to this Statute, by an amendment in accordance with the relevant provisions set forth in articles 121 and 123;

Committing outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;

Committing rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution, forced pregnancy, as defined in article 7, paragraph 2 (f), enforced sterilization, or any other form of sexual violence also constituting a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions;

Utilizing the presence of a civilian or other protected person to render certain points, areas or military forces immune from military operations;

Intentionally directing attacks against buildings, material, medical units and transport, and personnel using the distinctive emblems of the Geneva Conventions in conformity with international law;

Intentionally using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare by depriving them of objects indispensable to their survival, including wilfully impeding relief supplies as provided for under the Geneva Conventions;

Conscripting or enlisting children under the age of fifteen years into the national armed forces or using them to participate actively in hostilities.

There's nothing there about the use of camoflague to shoot soldiers who don't realize the threat for instance. You could argue the Federation's use of Side 7 as a final testing facility for the V Project constitutes a war crime, since it's in the midst of a civilian populace, but even then, the colony was sparsely populated and the Federation sounded an alarm and told all the civilians to gather in shelters as soon as they knew a Zeon ship was in the area, so they weren't trying to use that population to protect them against attack. The reason any civilians are out and about to be killed during Gene's attack is because they want to get to the White Base for protection rather than hiding in the shelters. If you do hold that the use of Side 7 is a war crime though, then Gene's attack is definitely a war crime, since he's intentionally attacking and endangering a civilian area in pursuit of a non-immediate threat as well as, again, acting against orders. It's more likely it'd be deemed insubordination than a war crime though, honestly.

Also, while Judau was under 15, he'd also stolen the Zeta multiple times and involved himself in the fight regularly anyway, so it's kind of hard to hold Bright as conscripting him really. Hell, you could hold Kamille as ultimately responsible with his first interaction with Judau, where he seems to trying to bring Judau to his view using what facilities he has left at the time.

# ? Sep 23, 2023 00:27

chiasaur11: Oct 22, 2012

tsob posted:

Gene wasn't acting on legally acceptable duties because his orders were just to scout, and when Denim tried to stop him from attacking because it was outside their orders, Gene told him that he was emulating Char to make a name for himself. His actions were purely personal and driven entirely by ego, not orders. Which are not proof against war crimes anyway.

Corporal Gene acted against legitimate Federation targets of inestimable military value after making every reasonable good faith effort to verify that the area was free of civilians.

Tragically, stray rounds resulted in innocent fatalities, but that's the nature of war.

I know tempers run high in these situations, but it's no reason to libel a man who has committed no criminal act, a man who can no longer defend himself due to his tragic death in the line of duty.

# ? Sep 23, 2023 00:42

Stairmaster: Jun 8, 2012

chiasaur is engaging in nazi apologia while slandering those who defeated them. we have achieved peak liberalism

# ? Sep 23, 2023 01:06

Runa: Feb 13, 2011

Stairmaster posted:

chiasaur is engaging in nazi apologia while slandering those who defeated them. we have achieved peak liberalism

hmm

# ? Sep 23, 2023 01:17

Waffleman_: Jan 20, 2011; I don't wanna I don't wanna I don't wanna I don't wanna!!!

Okay but have you considered that the robots are cool

# ? Sep 23, 2023 01:19

That Works: Jul 22, 2006; Every revolution evaporates and leaves behind only the slime of a new bureaucracy

Gripweed posted:

new thread title

# ? Sep 23, 2023 01:22

Ohtori Akio: Jul 15, 2022

i kiss the anim� villains on the mouth. and no court will convict me

# ? Sep 23, 2023 01:23

SyntheticPolygon: Dec 20, 2013

Stairmaster posted:

chiasaur is engaging in nazi apologia while slandering those who defeated them. we have achieved peak liberalism

thats right

# ? Sep 23, 2023 01:36

chiasaur11: Oct 22, 2012

Stairmaster posted:

chiasaur is engaging in nazi apologia while slandering those who defeated them. we have achieved peak liberalism

I resent that!

Slander is spoken.

In print, it's libel.

# ? Sep 23, 2023 01:50

ImpAtom: May 24, 2007

I feel like discussing who did the most war crimes in the OYW is kind of pointless because Colony Gassing And Drop is going to be front and center.

# ? Sep 23, 2023 02:10

Ohtori Akio: Jul 15, 2022

One might say the text is implying that escalating crimes against humanity are an intrinsic feature of war.

# ? Sep 23, 2023 02:12

chiasaur11: Oct 22, 2012

ImpAtom posted:

I feel like discussing who did the most war crimes in the OYW is kind of pointless because Colony Gassing And Drop is going to be front and center.

The MSB podcast actually started with that, bringing up the doctrine of proportionality. Basically, the common law for war crimes says that, the bigger the legitimate military benefit, the more collateral damage is acceptable. So, since destroying Jaburo would have won the war...

OF COURSE IT'S A loving WAR CRIME!

There's actually a bit of chapter and verse for the specific violations committed in the colony gassing. It's kind of neat to hear it broken down like that. (It's a very long list.)

# ? Sep 23, 2023 02:17

I R SMART LIKE ROCK: Mar 10, 2003; I just want a hug.; Fun Shoe

Ohtori Akio posted:

One might say the text is implying that escalating crimes against humanity are an intrinsic feature of war.

in the face of annihilation various groups will resort to increasingly more deadly and disastrous choices to save their own skin. which honestly sounds pretty human

# ? Sep 23, 2023 02:30

Arc Hammer: Mar 4, 2013; Got any deathsticks?

chiasaur11 posted:

I resent that!

Slander is spoken.

In print, it's libel.

... you don't trust anybody, that's your problem.

# ? Sep 23, 2023 02:43

Motto: Aug 3, 2013

I don't know how many gundam podcasts there are and which is which, but they all sound bad

# ? Sep 23, 2023 02:57

Gaius Marius: Oct 9, 2012

The thought of people paying money to listen to some dorks discuss fictional warcrimes is stunning. Gundam has a ton of media out there, why not actually talk about one of the shows or manga's instead of trying to spitball a hottake out of a wiki article you skimmed and a layman's understanding of international treaties.

# ? Sep 23, 2023 03:07

haypliss: Oct 2, 2022

I dunno, this episode sounds a lot like what people sometimes spend days in here posting so obviously there's a market. Also I'm assuming it's one of the free main feed episodes anyway.

# ? Sep 23, 2023 03:11

Babysitter Super Sleuth: Apr 26, 2012; my posts are as bad the Current Releases review of Gone Girl

Its in the free feed and also the host who did this piece is a retired lawyer, so they actually can understand and explain the subject in more depth and specificity than some random dipshits who skimmed a wikipedia article

# ? Sep 23, 2023 03:23

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

And for NEO-SLOVENIA, the IDEOLOGY GUNDAM.

# ? Sep 23, 2023 04:23

chiasaur11: Oct 22, 2012

Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:

Its in the free feed and also the host who did this piece is a retired lawyer, so they actually can understand and explain the subject in more depth and specificity than some random dipshits who skimmed a wikipedia article

They also do pretty lengthy research in general. The only reason we're getting this stuff instead of standard episodes is that the hosts are translating the SD Gundam movie from scratch, there's been a lot of busting of old myths about Tomino using Japanese sources, and the depth of research on random topics is generally impressive, including a willingness to admit when they went down a blind alley.

Not saying it's everyone's tempo, but I like learning more about how the shows were made.

# ? Sep 23, 2023 04:35

haypliss: Oct 2, 2022

Fully admitting I only listened to some CCA and the ZZ finale, but the base concept of their 1:1 episode count ratio just seems dreadful to me. Especially with how much coverage there already is on the early series, having such a long wait for the less-covered stuff (should they ever get there) is a shame. Popping in where I did does reveal some of how you maintain that pace though: add a bunch of tangential content like a fanfic radioplay or reading the Tale of Genji...just getting a bit afield of what I thought the podcast was for. But they're not here to be just research robots for me, so whatever.

# ? Sep 23, 2023 05:00

Tae: Oct 24, 2010; Hello? Can you hear me? ...Perhaps if I shout? AAAAAAAAAH!

There's another podcast that did the entire gundam franchise in 3 years if you want the opposite pace

# ? Sep 23, 2023 06:43

TheKingofSprings: Oct 9, 2012

Whether or not Amuro committed a war crime will have to be decided in the International Criminal Court in Sydney

Hold on, I�m getting some breaking news

# ? Sep 23, 2023 07:26

Cleretic: Feb 3, 2010; Can't post for 6 days!

TheKingofSprings posted:

Whether or not Amuro committed a war crime will have to be decided in the International Criminal Court in Sydney

Hold on, I�m getting some breaking news

The true conclusion: nobody in the UC committed war crimes, because there is no longer a Geneva to state the conventions.

# ? Sep 23, 2023 07:30

That Works: Jul 22, 2006; Every revolution evaporates and leaves behind only the slime of a new bureaucracy

Motto posted:

I don't know how many gundam podcasts there are and which is which, but they all sound bad

MSB is fairly well done imo. Good enough for listening to while i cook or do other chores. Im only just getting through 0080 in their timeline. They find enough random trivia about all sorts of things and the hosts banter is generally chill that it�s more fun than annoying.

# ? Sep 23, 2023 08:30

Azran: Sep 3, 2012; And what should one do to be remembered?

yeah MSB is pretty great. Nina's research on how childhood was viewed historically and during WW2 and post-WW2 era Japan was fascinating. True, it's at most tangentially related to Gundam but it's interesting nonetheless!

# ? Sep 23, 2023 10:03

gimme the GOD DAMN candy: Jul 1, 2007

the geneva conventions are a decent, well thought out set of rules. they are also only used as a tool to punish the enemies of the western powers.

# ? Sep 23, 2023 10:19

Srice: Sep 11, 2011

I enjoy The Great Gundam Project, though admittedly I already liked Abnormal Mapping so hearing hosts I already liked talking about something else was an easy sell for me.

# ? Sep 23, 2023 11:30

tsob: Sep 26, 2006; Chalalala~

Cleretic posted:

The true conclusion: nobody in the UC committed war crimes, because there is no longer a Geneva to state the conventions.

The Antarctic Treaty is mentioned in both 0079 and Zeta as dictating at least similar terms in that it guaranteed the humane treatment of prisoners, with both one of Ral's men mentioning that provision once the White Base captures him and someone in Jaburo mentioning it in Zeta. The treaty became defunct after the One Year War as such, but given it's mention in both 0083 and Zeta, it probably stayed in the popular consciousness and it seems like some of the same stuff was carried over into the Granada Accords post war anyway. We have very little info on the actual meat of either though, just the high level "nukes bad" type stuff really.

# ? Sep 23, 2023 12:54

Warmachine: Jan 30, 2012

gimme the GOD drat candy posted:

the geneva conventions are a decent, well thought out set of rules. they are also only used as a tool to punish the enemies of the western powers.

I didn't say it, but "One world government Earth Federation wins war, refuses to prosecute own war criminals (because winner), puts a few Zeon up on pikes as a warning (because loser), and Paperclips the rest" is the lest surprising outcome ever.

# ? Sep 23, 2023 19:34

Babysitter Super Sleuth: Apr 26, 2012; my posts are as bad the Current Releases review of Gone Girl

Warmachine posted:

I didn't say it, but "One world government Earth Federation wins war, refuses to prosecute own war criminals (because winner), puts a few Zeon up on pikes as a warning (because loser), and Paperclips the rest" is the lest surprising outcome ever.

I mean 0083 makes it fairly clear that this is literally what happened

# ? Sep 23, 2023 21:38

drrockso20: May 6, 2013; Has Not Actually Done Cocaine

Well that and the fact that the people in the Federation most likely to commit War Crimes had a convoluted plan to ensure a bunch of the leftover Space Nazis would nuke most of the people in the Federation who were less likely to commit War Crimes and give them a reason to take over

# ? Sep 23, 2023 21:54

Hellioning: Jun 27, 2008

Mobile Suit Breakdown is a good podcast even if I skip a bunch of stuff each episode.

# ? Sep 23, 2023 22:00

Waffleman_: Jan 20, 2011; I don't wanna I don't wanna I don't wanna I don't wanna!!!

https://twitter.com/zeonicscans/status/1705690231826268444?t=pWrajlGfm5i9tygg5BQc-Q&s=19

This is adorable

# ? Sep 23, 2023 22:17

Hellioning: Jun 27, 2008

I am, perhaps, more amused than I should be that the only guy on there is Kamille.

# ? Sep 24, 2023 23:49

Regarde Aduck: Oct 19, 2012; c l o u d k i t t e n; Grimey Drawer

chiasaur11 posted:

The MSB podcast actually started with that, bringing up the doctrine of proportionality. Basically, the common law for war crimes says that, the bigger the legitimate military benefit, the more collateral damage is acceptable. So, since destroying Jaburo would have won the war...

OF COURSE IT'S A loving WAR CRIME!

There's actually a bit of chapter and verse for the specific violations committed in the colony gassing. It's kind of neat to hear it broken down like that. (It's a very long list.)

if they'd have won the war then it wouldn't be a war crime, it would have been a heroic action

# ? Sep 25, 2023 09:05