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Irony Be My Shield posted:I'm sure that taking out Hamas will be inconvenient for Israel. They will suffer casualties, their diplomatic standing will be damaged and their economy will take a hit (although the US is likely to have them covered there). This would explain why they have never launched a full-scale invasion of Gaza before. If Israel was capable of destroying Hamas, they would have done it long ago. They did once support Hamas to some extent to counterbalance the influence of peaceful groups, but they never wanted Hamas to win the elections in 2006, nor did they want Hamas to retain control of Gaza in the ensuing civil war. They've been trying quite seriously to destroy Hamas (or at least knock them out of power in Gaza) ever since. The problem is the same one that the US has had to deal with so many times: military force alone is not capable of completely destroying an insurgent movement relying on guerilla tactics and asymmetrical warfare. That's why Israel pulled out so quickly in its previous invasions of Gaza: the leadership were well aware that a ground invasion was largely pointless, they just sent in the troops to score political points and then pulled out before the troops took enough casualties to cause real political damage.
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 19:36 |
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# ? May 27, 2024 04:00 |
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https://twitter.com/MohanadHageAli/status/1717489376802807889 https://twitter.com/MohanadHageAli/status/1717489377725595752 https://twitter.com/MohanadHageAli/status/1717489378769920175 https://twitter.com/MohanadHageAli/status/1717571789465768124 The author of the
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 19:41 |
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Main Paineframe posted:If Israel was capable of destroying Hamas, they would have done it long ago. They did once support Hamas to some extent to counterbalance the influence of peaceful groups, but they never wanted Hamas to win the elections in 2006, nor did they want Hamas to retain control of Gaza in the ensuing civil war. They've been trying quite seriously to destroy Hamas (or at least knock them out of power in Gaza) ever since. It won't be any different this time except for more people probably die for no good reason.
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 19:47 |
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Within the country Hamas' attack is widely seen as an attempted second Holocaust. This just goes to show how insanely adrift from reality Israel's perspective has become. quote:I think the best case scenario (which to be clear, still massively sucks) would be Israel being convinced/pressured into a plan that removes Hamas from power and takes out their leadership, but which allows civilians to flee - a ceasefire combined with a genuine opportunity for Gazans to evacuate to somewhere, rather than just being vaguely told to avoid half of the strip with no instruction of where to go or what route to take. This would still be an absolutely horrible outcome that could result in permanent displacement but it's still better than the current trajectory of the war, which is tens or hundreds of thousands of Gazan casualties. Genocide is not a best case scenario.
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 19:52 |
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The Palestinian Ministry of Health put out a comprehensive list of the dead with name, age, and their ID number. Over 7000 dead with almost 3000 children dead. I wonder if this will change the language being used by the President in the US. I'm guessing it will be dismissed no matter what. https://twitter.com/AseelAlBajeh/status/1717588222845354231
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 20:04 |
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Main Paineframe posted:The problem is the same one that the US has had to deal with so many times: military force alone is not capable of completely destroying an insurgent movement relying on guerilla tactics and asymmetrical warfare. That's why Israel pulled out so quickly in its previous invasions of Gaza: the leadership were well aware that a ground invasion was largely pointless, they just sent in the troops to score political points and then pulled out before the troops took enough casualties to cause real political damage. Asymmetric warfare doesn't necessarily grant one immunity to sufficient brutality: ronya posted:An observation: One might observe some qualitative similarities to ongoing events, certainly. Google Jeb Bush pointed out that Colombo was ultimately amenable to national unification because Sinhalese held a landslide majority of the population (and this was never really in doubt); that's not the case in I/P. It's also the case that the Colombo successfully ordered aid agencies out of LTTE-controlled areas and tightly excluded journalists and media access to the ground, which was effective at cutting off support and limiting foreign anger (particularly in the post-War-on-Terror environment that was particularly harsh on such international funding). And of course the campaign there was launched on Colombo's terms, with prepared government forces and an unprepared LTTE, and not the other way around.
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 20:04 |
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Why are people so quick to believe anything the government says in Palestine? Honest question... Are they not all Hamas entities? They have EVERYTHING to gain from exagerating or straight up lying... Is the ministry of health somehow separate from the rest of the government? What am I not seeing here...
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 20:09 |
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As has been repeatedly shown, the Ministry of Health's numbers have been reliable for years in similar situations to the point that international bodies take them as such. Whenever they audit they find only minor discrepancies.
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 20:11 |
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It seems reasonable to me that airstrikes in civilian areas are probably killing civilians. You could quibble about exactly how many kids die when you drop an apartment building on their heads, but what's the point.
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 20:12 |
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Viller posted:Why are people so quick to believe anything the government says in Palestine? Honest question... When Netanyahu is saying "we have eliminated thousands of fighters" what reason would anyone have to not believe thousands of "not fighter" people are dead? They aren't in there doing door to door fighting. If they're killing "thousands of fighters" with bombing and artillery into a densely populated region, they're absolutely killing many times that in non-combatant casualties. This list seems like a pretty plausible outcome for this kind of campaign, I don't see why anyone has any reason to doubt it except at the margins. i.e. maybe it's 6,000 instead of 7,000 but ok.
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 20:13 |
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Viller posted:Why are people so quick to believe anything the government says in Palestine? Honest question... The Gazan Ministry of Health has had an excellent prior track record with reliably reporting deaths from prior IDF assaults on the Gaza Strip, with its numbers closely matching to those reported by independent observers like the UN. This is because Hamas is not just a terrorist organisation, but a national government, and it needs to know (and provide reliable data for its citizens on) who within its territory is alive or dead a lot more than it needs to exaggerate those numbers to appeal to the nonexistent sympathy of the countries that are funding the ongoing Palestinian genocide.
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 20:16 |
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Viller posted:Why are people so quick to believe anything the government says in Palestine? Honest question... Their numbers are based on death certificates from hospitals / morgues and have been shown to be accurate at the past. You need only look at the pictures of completely leveled neighborhoods in what is an area smaller and denser than the city of Chicago to understand the people who have not made it to morgues are probably a LOT higher than that number. It's not a tally that's a guess it's "these are the specific individuals who have been confirmed dead." All the people buried dead under rubble are not part of that figure. And it has to be a LOT.
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 20:17 |
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Viller posted:Why are people so quick to believe anything the government says in Palestine? Honest question... This has been explained in several posts in the past couple pages. They gain nothing from exaggerating as nobody cares as I posted yesterday. We know how many people died in previous Israeli bombings and attacks and how much greater the bombings have been over the past few weeks.
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 20:18 |
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I understand the point that we shouldn't take everything Hamas says at face value, but a list of dead citizens is the sort of thing that can be quickly and embarrassingly debunked if it was a complete fabrication. So, probably accurate?
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 20:18 |
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Viller posted:Why are people so quick to believe anything the government says in Palestine? Honest question... this isn't the first time Israel has indiscriminately slaughtered civilians, and in every past instance the numbers have been independently verified If they had ever lied about the numbers, we would be aware of it. if anything, the numbers are far too low, because they don't count all the indirect deaths from things like lack of access to health care or potable water, nor all the bodies that have yet to be recovered since the bombing is still ongoing
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 20:18 |
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Viller posted:What am I not seeing here... Gazans as human beings.
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 20:28 |
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Viller posted:Are they not all Hamas entities? They have EVERYTHING to gain from exagerating or straight up lying... Hamas is not just its military, and that's specifically why Hamas managed to beat the PA in the first place. It's not as simple as "Hamas forced the settlers to evacuate Gaza, and that was enough for them to win", they organized serious grassroots social programs and cultural institutions to legitimize themselves in the eyes of Palestinians. From the very start, their case against PA has been that they're significantly more competent than the cronies that Abbas surrounds himself with. To crosspost from a CSPAM thread: gradenko_2000 posted:fact-check: Hamas has done more for its constituents than the Democrat Party From the start, Hamas has fashioned itself as a serious government for the people. Maintaining professional institutions is a serious part of that, which is why they've bothered to have an institution whos reports are accurate within 5-10% of international efforts, rather than just saying "20 million Palestinians have just died!!!" like PA was wont to do: quote:On April 7, senior Palestinian official Saeb Erekat suggested to CNN that some 500 Palestinians had been killed in the camp. Five days later, when the fighting stopped, PA Secretary Ahmed Abdel Rahman told UPI that the number was in the thousands, hinting, along with other Palestinian figures, that Israel had snatched bodies, buried Palestinians in mass graves and under the rubble of ruined buildings, and otherwise conducted on a scale compatible with genocide." This is entirely foreign to most US citizens because we only hear about Hamas through Israel, or through news on the conflict, and reinforced even in leftist circles by the "Netanyahu Created Hamas" talking point, but they are, in fact, a government. Not just terrorists in tunnels. That's also something to keep in mind when Israel boasts about killing Hamas members; they often include bureaucrats. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Oct 26, 2023 |
# ? Oct 26, 2023 20:32 |
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It's very cool that both major candidates for president like to uncritically repeat foreign propaganda
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 20:32 |
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:this isn't the first time Israel has indiscriminately slaughtered civilians, and in every past instance the numbers have been independently verified There are also the dead/dying who are still under the rubble. They cannot find/rescue them because they don't have the equipment to dig for them. Those people would either be missing or dead depending on whether anyone knows they were in there at the time.
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 20:38 |
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That last page is pretty relevant to another topic that often comes up in here, by the way; Gaza had an issue with families getting stuck in retaliatory cycles over perceived injustices that were never addressed by the ruling government. Hamas and the Islamic charities they [through the Muslim Brotherhood] embedded within, despite not yet being the government, would settle these disputes with reparations to the affected. A cycle of violence settled by reliably following through with giving the bereaved what they're owed. Huh! Cool trick! I wonder if they'll try to offer that on a larger scale when they become the de-facto government! Perhaps in some form of long-term offer! Perhaps they could call it the Decade Spanning Agreement.
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 20:50 |
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Hamas is poo poo and I hope the entirety of Hamas is destroyed (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 20:59 |
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Collapsing Farts posted:Hamas is poo poo and I hope the entirety of Hamas is destroyed It won't be sorry to be the one to burst your bubble.
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 21:01 |
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Hamelekim posted:The Palestinian Ministry of Health put out a comprehensive list of the dead with name, age, and their ID number. Over 7000 dead with almost 3000 children dead. I wonder if this will change the language being used by the President in the US. I'm guessing it will be dismissed no matter what. Biden et al probably won’t change their stance https://twitter.com/joshuaphilll/status/1717616124471218364 It’s nice to see our liberal administration engage in genocide denial
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 21:02 |
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That's been pretty standard.
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 21:03 |
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https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1717279204130037806 I wonder why the world sees you as the monster rather than Palestinians?
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 21:03 |
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As 7 October was apparently at least as bad as one hundred 9/11s, the one democracy in the Middle-East is bringing in an equally proportional equivalent of the Free Speech Zones. Live fire against internal protest. https://twitter.com/YaelBerda/status/1717616644204216492 I would say "I doubt Israeli police will fire on Jewish citizens", but recent witness statements have at the very least opened that up to some doubt.
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 21:10 |
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Regardless of how you feel about Hamas, there are undeniable facts about them: - They have respected just about every ceasefire they've signed off on, to a degree far greater than Israel itself. The only exceptions are when Israel commits acts seen by both Palestinian governments as an assault of Palestinians/Arabs (Raiding Al-Aqsa, invading refugee camps, lynching West Bank Palestinians with IDF support). - They do more than just fire rockets. - Their non-military administrations are serious entities with shockingly accurate and effective methods (especially considering their buildings get blown up every year). - They were legitimately elected, and the lack of further elections stems from Abbas being reluctant to hold Palestine-wide elections (because everyone knows he would lose, and that would jeopardize IDF-PA collaboration). None of this means you have to endorse them, approve of them, or hold your tongue when denouncing them, but you also can't deny any of these specific traits. If it helps you wrap your head around this, they're closer to Iran than they are to ISIS. Undeniably commit awful acts, but also genuinely administrate; you can denounce Iran without claiming that they don't do anything of value, you can do the same for Hamas.
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 21:10 |
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Israel dropped 6000 bombs on Gaza in the first few days according to their own statements and have been running at least hundreds of sorties and other strikes a day ever since. Honestly the death toll very likely is off by a lot and not in the direction Biden is suggesting. Like there's no world where you are convincing me that Israel went from dogshit, lazy, complacent intelligence to generating 10k high quality up to the moment targeting packages with rigorous collateral damage assessments in 2 weeks. poo poo is a humanitarian disaster and its all par for the course, particularly when bibi is well known for demanding quantity over quality wrt strikes. hell the real mystery is how Israel uses so many munitions to achieve so little tangible effect on hamas' capabilities and so much effect on civilians
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 21:11 |
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I mean, democracies love suppressing its citizens.
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 21:13 |
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they really are going all in with the mcarthyism huh https://twitter.com/StopAntisemites/status/1717560807322452053
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 21:14 |
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Neurolimal posted:Regardless of how you feel about Hamas, there are undeniable facts about them: Thank you for the level headed response, they are hard to come by nowadays. I just dont see how this stops while Hamas is still in power, its hard to believe for me that the population actually wanted stuff like October 7th to happen. An election supervised by a 3rd party not named Israel could change my whole view of the conflict, I'm sure I am not the only one also...
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 21:22 |
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:As 7 October was apparently at least as bad as one hundred 9/11s, the one democracy in the Middle-East is bringing in an equally proportional equivalent of the Free Speech Zones. Live fire against internal protest. Relative to the population size, Oct 7th was 20 9/11s and it seems the réponse in Israel is proportional. The media and populace becoming very jingoistic and hawkish, repression of any dissenting thoughts, and lots of lots of quick decisions being made with support across the board that will have repercussions for decades.
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 21:24 |
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Nov 5, 2023 |
# ? Oct 26, 2023 21:31 |
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kiminewt posted:Relative to the population size, Oct 7th was 20 9/11s and it seems the réponse in Israel is proportional. The media and populace becoming very jingoistic and hawkish, repression of any dissenting thoughts, and lots of lots of quick decisions being made with support across the board that will have repercussions for decades. Indiscriminately killing your prison population because part of that population broke out of prison and killed people is never a proportional response.
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 21:41 |
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punishedkissinger posted:they really are going all in with the mcarthyism huh IMO, you probably shouldn't be giving this tweet any more publicity. This is an extremely lovely thing for antisemitism.org (or whatever) to do and giving it any more attention seems like a terrible thing.
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 21:42 |
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Kalit posted:IMO, you probably shouldn't be giving this tweet any more publicity. This is an extremely lovely thing for antisemitism.org (or whatever) to do and giving it any more attention seems like a terrible thing. You're not wrong. Digging further, as suspected the framing in that tweet is utter bullshit. https://patch.com/new-york/new-york-city/jewish-students-cooper-union-library-werent-danger-nypd-says quote:But Chell cast a slightly different portrait of what happened.
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 21:45 |
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punishedkissinger posted:You're not wrong. Digging further, as suspected the framing in that tweet is utter bullshit. this sounds like DnD arguments but in real life VitalSigns posted:Doesn't Taiwan still claim to rule all of mainland China. Not arguing the general point either way but the only reason why Taipei keeps a claim on mainland China is because Beijing pressures them to do it: since China consider dropping said claim to be tantamount to a declaration of independence Typo fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Oct 26, 2023 |
# ? Oct 26, 2023 21:50 |
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HonorableTB posted:It's not a great sign when the only power that can reign in Israel at all straight up doesn't believe the number of Palestinians killed: These days I find myself thinking back to the time right before the Iraq war a lot. Everybody in Europe and around the globe was protesting. The us and uk just kept on coming up with dumb ‘proof’ of WMDs that nobody here took seriously (I guess a lot of people in the US did believe it). But in the end, it didn’t matter what people thought. They were gonna invade and nobody was gonna stop them. And like you said, the only people who can stop Israel now are gonna let it do whatever it wants and cover their back with 2 carriers worth of planes, so nobody disturbs them while doing so.
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 22:09 |
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Kalit posted:IMO, you probably shouldn't be giving this tweet any more publicity. This is an extremely lovely thing for antisemitism.org (or whatever) to do and giving it any more attention seems like a terrible thing. What’s your strategy for ending this practice besides putting your head in the sand?
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 22:13 |
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# ? May 27, 2024 04:00 |
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mrfart posted:These days I find myself thinking back to the time right before the Iraq war a lot. Everybody in Europe and around the globe was protesting. The us and uk just kept on coming up with dumb ‘proof’ of WMDs that nobody here took seriously (I guess a lot of people in the US did believe it). But in the end, it didn’t matter what people thought. They were gonna invade and nobody was gonna stop them. At some point countries in the region will have to take military action against Israel when Israel goes into Gaza and the deaths increase. The people in those countries will riot and threaten to overthrow their autocratic rulers if they don't. There is a reason that leaders in the region have backed away from normalization with Israel, and it has nothing to do with a change of heart.
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# ? Oct 26, 2023 22:14 |