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Lysistrata posted:I am so, so enamored of the stuff being posted here! I wouldn't normally chime in, because I am an untreatable lurker, but I wanted to add something that y'all might not know-- the duel songs were not written for Utena, but they were also not slapped on after the fact. Apparently what the Be-Papas did was listen to the songs while writing and use certain songs to inspire certain characters. Basically vibes-based. The duel songs aren't going to have a 1:1 correlation with the characters, but there is a definite connection. i just want to say that vanna's always been right about akio. he works in the story because the pull of his beauty and personality is so strong and believable and real. he's lucifer, certainly in the sense of absolute evil, but even moreso in the sense of being gorgeous and tempting. if i ever put out an essay for you it'd be about akio as classic luciferian figure
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Nov 10, 2023 09:42
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I am pounding my table waiting for you to write that essay. Seriously, do it!
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Nov 10, 2023 11:01
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Lysistrata posted:I am so, so enamored of the stuff being posted here! I wouldn't normally chime in, because I am an untreatable lurker, but I wanted to add something that y'all might not know-- the duel songs were not written for Utena, but they were also not slapped on after the fact. Apparently what the Be-Papas did was listen to the songs while writing and use certain songs to inspire certain characters. Basically vibes-based. The duel songs aren't going to have a 1:1 correlation with the characters, but there is a definite connection. This is true, but only up to a point. Seazar did start writing songs for Utena eventually - and then never stopped. The OST is up to 13 volumes, currently.
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Nov 10, 2023 12:45
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Cavelcade posted:The OST is up to 13 volumes, currently. I'm sorry, what?
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Nov 10, 2023 12:53
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Ah, yeah, Seazer continued to compose and rearrange Utena tracks long after the series was finished-- I hope you'll forgive me, but after Barbara Dwarf Star Child Apocalypse I was a bit more focused on the musicals. Which are loving amazing by the way, genuinely a treat, even to the point of incorporating "I Am An Imaginary Living Body" as Mikage's duel in the second one, and I'm so upset that covid robbed us of a third musical. But yeah, absolutely, you're right, Seazer kept composing and rearranging Utena-esque tracks until... well, he hasn't stopped that I know of. We've tried to keep track of it here but we would so welcome any help!
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Nov 10, 2023 13:10
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Nanami's theme from the first (?) musical remains one of my favorite bits of Utena music.
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Nov 10, 2023 13:15
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Well now, this is an entirely new range of content I had no idea existed. Thanks for bringing it up, I'll have to find a way to watch the musicals at the very least.
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Nov 10, 2023 13:17
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Lysistrata posted:I am so, so enamored of the stuff being posted here! I wouldn't normally chime in, because I am an untreatable lurker, but I wanted to add something that y'all might not know-- the duel songs were not written for Utena, but they were also not slapped on after the fact. Apparently what the Be-Papas did was listen to the songs while writing and use certain songs to inspire certain characters. Basically vibes-based. The duel songs aren't going to have a 1:1 correlation with the characters, but there is a definite connection. I've been meaning to submit something to Empty Movement for years but have never been able to find an idea that I felt like I could really say anything new or interesting enough to justify it. That may have changed with this rewatch for the thread though, so I might finally be able to pull something together I feel good about submitting And the discussion of Seazer is interesting, I should listen to those new albums
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Nov 10, 2023 13:33
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From an academic standpoint, we have access to three musicals: the 1997 musical (Takarazuka style!), the 2018 musical which covers the StuCo arc, and the 2019 musical that covers the Black Rose arc. There are other musicals, such as the "Anthy machine guns down zombies" musical that we can only dream of. We've asked. We've had people contact the theatre. No recordings exist. As far as the musicals we have access to... ask and ye shall receive, and we'll probably even make a do out of streaming it seeing as we haven't done it in a while. And if you ever hear of that missing musical, loving let us know oh my god.
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Nov 10, 2023 13:56
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chrome line, something is hosed up with my awfulapp so I can't quote or message but please, please send something in to us. No one will ever experience Utena the way you will. No one will ever pick out the same details or make the same associations you will. This is an intensely personal show. Don't deprive us of your point of view.
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Nov 10, 2023 14:00
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Ohtori Akio posted:i just want to say that vanna's always been right about akio. he works in the story because the pull of his beauty and personality is so strong and believable and real. he's lucifer, certainly in the sense of absolute evil, but even moreso in the sense of being gorgeous and tempting. if i ever put out an essay for you it'd be about akio as classic luciferian figure yep. actual sexual predators like him frequently have that sort of natural charisma and charm that helps them get away with it for so long
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Nov 10, 2023 21:45
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i think after the show wraps, i definitely want a movie week, but we should either keep the thread around for utenaposting and secondary content or goldmine everyone's writing on the topic and make a new one. utena will never die, to me
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Nov 10, 2023 22:02
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Lady Radia posted:yep. actual sexual predators like him frequently have that sort of natural charisma and charm that helps them get away with it for so long i think, even outside the charm that enables his predatory lifestyle, that charisma and charm and beauty and success is what pulls people into imitating him. we think of the devil as being a freaky little red man with horns but i feel the beautiful-devil depiction is much more useful.
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Nov 10, 2023 22:05
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Ohtori Akio posted:i think after the show wraps, i definitely want a movie week I'm up for continuing through the movie.
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Nov 10, 2023 23:04
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Ohtori Akio posted:i think after the show wraps, i definitely want a movie week, but we should either keep the thread around for utenaposting and secondary content or goldmine everyone's writing on the topic and make a new one. utena will never die, to me Honestly, you're not actually done watching Utena until you've gone back and rewatched it or discussed it thoroughly afterward anyway. Theres just way too much that only makes sense that way or that you may not know. There was a big thing I only found out about from looking some stuff up for this thread for instance. I'll admit that I'm not too hot on the movie though. I'm interested to seeing the reactions to it if nothing else though. Nephthys fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Nov 10, 2023 |
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Nov 10, 2023 23:54
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yeah, i enjoyed utena well enough the first time i watched it, but pretty much all of it went straight over my head.
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Nov 10, 2023 23:55
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i'll need an outlet to post blatant utena references until i die now that i'm utenapilled. like this
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Nov 11, 2023 00:01
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Lysistrata posted:I am so, so enamored of the stuff being posted here! I wouldn't normally chime in, because I am an untreatable lurker, but I wanted to add something that y'all might not know-- the duel songs were not written for Utena, but they were also not slapped on after the fact. Apparently what the Be-Papas did was listen to the songs while writing and use certain songs to inspire certain characters. Basically vibes-based. The duel songs aren't going to have a 1:1 correlation with the characters, but there is a definite connection. this website looks awesome, but i'm way too scared to click anything for the next 1.5 weeks
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Nov 11, 2023 00:02
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ohtori dot nu is eternal. you can hang on
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Nov 11, 2023 00:03
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Oh god ep 33 hosed me up real good the first time I saw it. I almost didn't want to watch the show anymore. I've heard stories about Akio types preying on Utenas all genders and its just way too sad. 
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Nov 11, 2023 05:17
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Alright! Episode 33! I'd been dreading it all week but that's fine I can do this, I have all day because it's veterans day and I didn't make plans. The opening narration over the distant amusement park at night brings it more into the real world. That's been happening a lot lately. In this particular instance it connects the prince's actions years ago to Akio's actions now, and makes this story we've heard before sound a whole lot sketchier. And then the windows shut around Anthy as she turns on the projector. She doesn't want to see the world around her, knowing what she's just done to Utena. She wants to hide behind an illusion, ignore the reality of what's happening. She says so herself, during the phone call that starts during the title card. This opening haunts me. It has ever since the first time I watched it. Break #1 starts as soon as Utena says she had fun that day while stretching. There's a pink and red bouquet of roses on a chair. I haven't talked much about color symbolism because I don't feel like I have much to say. What's interesting to me is that Utena is looking out at the amusement park from earlier. This makes me think that the narration is meant to be her thinking about her prince during the date earlier, or possibly just now as she's stretching, trying to find ways to make sense of what's going on by thinking of the most important moment in her life. The camera just looking at Utena when we know that Akio's there and is probably the pov is nightmarish. Utena is of course bringing up Anthy and wishing she was there, that it wasn't just the two of them now in a hotel together. She says "Have I ever mentioned that I'm an only child?" which does bring me a little joy in this episode because the answer is yes. Constantly. Clearly Utena started this show wanting a sibling, because nothing that she's been through on screen could possibly make someone want siblings. She turns to the camera slowly, letting us see her lipstick and showcasing her dress. Thank god for the shadow play radio quiz show. They say the stars are beautiful tonight but we can't see them. Too much light pollution. All that's available is an illusion, whether it's the lights of the amusement park or the planetarium. We also get a definitive time period, this takes place in autumn. It was in fact mid-November when this episode came out, so that's probably to be expected. It's a night where couples can glimpse eternity. The shadow girls are as curious as I am what exactly this show thinks is eternal, but of course Akio is their first caller. We see him for the first time, his shirt unbuttoned and tie undone. He describes the whole duel-running thing (or possibly the child grooming) as a side job, which is a little funny. Unless he has another side job that just isn't ever shown onscreen, like he does art commissions or something. Is a diamond, a beautiful memory, or canned peaches eternal? Obviously the answer is canned peaches, because while diamonds will eventually break or get chipped away over the years and your memory will fade, canned peaches have a pretty good song about them that'll surely outlast my lifetime. Akio gets a call and heads to work, transforming into his End of the World outfit as he accelerates dramatically. The street lights slam into the camera over and over again, and I am reminded that this predates the porygon episode of Pokemon by about a month. The speeds written on the street become simply the word stop repeating over and over again as the episode transitions into clips from past episodes. The main things it feels are necessary to remind us of here are the fact that Touga and Saionji are super gay, that Saionji was the one seeking something eternal, and that Anthy has been trying to tell Utena something. We cut back to Utena watching tv, what sounds like boxing but is about gaining the title of grand champion imposter king. If you beat enough challengers you gain that title. Very clearly reminiscent of the duels, Utena turns off the tv to continue living in ignorance as she stretches and asks some questions about whether the champion will become the champion king, very clearly ignoring the lies inherent o the dueling as she wishes she could participate. I have good news for her. I'm glad the show still has a sense of humor even now, it does make this a little easier. The things the show finds important from Miki's duel are: Utena being jealous about other people having families, Anthy being Miki's mom (still no idea what that's about), and just Miki and Kozue's sibling dynamic generally. Utena changed into a robe after a shower and is complaining about her classes. She rambles about a teacher who has gone through many nicknames. I think Utena, much like myself, is trying to delay what we know is coming. Here's the eyecatch, with some jazz music that is WAY TOO CHEERFUL for this episode, and I take another break. Utena's body language here is really good. She's clearly nervous before she blurts out that she left the bread out from earlier and she hopes Anthy put it away before it started to smell. Though we know Akio is there, and might in fact be the pov for the shot, we don't see him. Instead we cut to Akio thinking about the Miki duel again. This time the most important thing is that time Kozue started making out with Anthy while driving. That is important, I'm always thinking about it. Akio gets called by the radio quiz again, as they ask him about miracles this time. Edison's inventions, meeting a prince, or canned coelecanth. I think canned coelecanth, because it's a miracle to see one at all and to have it killed and canned would be something else entirely. Akio instead just thinks about Ruka and Juri. Important things: Ruka's introduction, Shiori polishing Ruka's sword, and it being fake, and Juri's breakdown post the locket being destroyed. In the middle of the flashback we cut back to Utena playing go and talking about how bad she is at cooking, and how she can't even follow recipes quite right. While she was distracting herself she gets completely trapped by her opponent. Utena's hand reaches out from below frame to turn out the light. We see Utena, in bed, back to camera before she turns to face it. Back to Akio, not answering the question asked. Utena is visibly nude, though we see no more than the barest edge of her shoulder, and her face and hands. She's talking about how she has to make lunch for the next day, planning it from her leftovers, trying to move past the thing that's happening to her as she speaks. She bites her finger, then asks Akio his opinion. This close up shot while she talks about her meal planning is one of the most uncomfortable things I've ever seen. She gasps, closing her eyes and shaking some, the camera goes back to the STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP on the road as she asks what eternity means and it cuts to Akio's hand in hers. If you didn't realize until now what this episode was now's where you would. The show doesn't linger on it. Akio calls Anthy as we now see his side of the call from the start of the episode. We now see that Utena has been in the passenger seat this whole time as well, as Akio says the stars have been beautiful that night. We still haven't seen them, they aren't real. He looks very pleased with himself, she looks like she's unsure what's happening around her. She openly says she didn't want what happened to happen, and that all she'd been planning on doing was delivering the roses like Anthy asked. We get an atypical ed here where instead of still shots of Anthy and Utena embracing and kissing, we see Akio and Touga driving around. For the next time on, we see that we're going to learn more about Utena's encounter with the prince. Not much to say there, Anthy asks Utena who she is and Utena ignores it. I don't know how obvious it is but I've been writing more when the show itself is distressing, if this hadn't been a clip show I would have written even more. And what a clip show it was! If this was your first episode of Utena I cannot imagine what kind of experience that would be. You wouldn't understand anything. I'm excited for next week, there's some all time great scenes in there.
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Nov 11, 2023 10:53
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thank you for taking the time to write that. densest clip show of all time?
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Nov 11, 2023 11:04
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I drew attention to it at the time, but now I can do so again - in episode 26, Anthy refuses to explain Utena's words, so Akio violently grabs her and pulls her close, breaking a teacup. Her response is directly paralleled by Utena; Anthy dissociated talking about the broken cup in response to being assaulted, Utena dissociates and talks about food (and Anthy) in response to being raped even though, because Akio's grooming was so successful, she wouldn't describe it as rape. Also the game is actually Othello (which was recently computationally solved!) - and when Utena turned away, Akio must have cheated, because the game state is impossible.
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Nov 11, 2023 11:29
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Just a few little things that caught my eye on this watch. In 28-29, Ruka spends the majority of his time hellbent on his quest to cause the kind of natural disaster-level upheaval necessary to shake energy vampire Shiori out of Juri's orbit, and because of that most of his dialogue is very matter of fact or outright lies to an end. There's a few interesting glimpses at the kind of personality he might have beyond the surface though - he seems to delight in making dry little in-jokes for the enjoyment of a few that completely fly over the heads of others on the scene or even just for his own amusement  (technically the truth because that's not my goal and I'm also dying! Ha ha, you devilishly delightful Ruka, you've done it again) Also what feels half a dozen times when he goes whoa whoa I'm just a little sick boy, what can I hope to do. It's a parallel to Touga amusing himself with his machinations but with Ruka it's stupid little jokes. He would have fit in great with pre-car student council. Also in 31 there's this:   which to my memory feels like the only time we've seen Anthy genuinely socialize with a StuCo member, rather than as part of some passive-aggressive scheme.
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Nov 11, 2023 13:07
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Tonfa posted:Also what feels half a dozen times when he goes whoa whoa I'm just a little sick boy, what can I hope to do. It's a parallel to Touga amusing himself with his machinations but with Ruka it's stupid little jokes. He would have fit in great with pre-car student council. Like Akio his uniform is similar to the current council but just different enough to suggest that he was in fact a member of an earlier iteration.
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Nov 11, 2023 17:14
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The Akio's POV part makes me think they're saying Akio is in all of us. Our dads had to give our moms their Ohtori Akio at some point to give birth to us. And then that passes down to some degree to the offspring. Even though the Akio doesn't necessarily show all the time, unless you're Touga, he's still waiting to rear his head at the opportune moment. (I guess that implies Akio is mostly in males and not females by birth, but I'd be surprised if this 1997 show dug into that question too deeply.)
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Nov 12, 2023 14:00
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Oh unless that's the entire point of the show When Utena decided to be a "prince" and unknowingly awakened the Akio in herself. So like maybe all those scenes of Akio and Anthy sex it's actually Utena being Akio? Probably not though?
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Nov 12, 2023 14:13
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Are you saying that the show's message is "all sex is rape"?
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Nov 12, 2023 17:09
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Midjack posted:Are you saying that the show's message is "all sex is rape"? i think deeper analysis of the themes they're prodding at need some more episodes to really get at. i think this is an uncharitable but not inaccurate take given the information we have now.
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Nov 12, 2023 20:14
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We've seen a fair amount of sex at this point if you interpret the car scenes as such, and they're all at best questionable in consent. Several of them explicitly involve sexual assault. Such is the way of things with Akio Ohtori. Well, Ruka and Shiori were I think firmly not sexual assault but they have their own issues I don't fully agree with TwoStoryHouseCat but I think that's not an unreasonable read given what we've seen so far. There's still 2 weeks left, plus the movie, so there's time for the show's themes to evolve and crystallize
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Nov 12, 2023 20:27
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I agree that a lot of the sex alluded to or displayed in the show is coerced when it's not outright assault but I vehemently disagree thatTwoStoryHouseCat posted:Our dads had to give our moms their Ohtori Akio at some point to give birth to us. Come the gently caress on, this is removing agency from women to a repugnant extent and goes way beyond the boundaries of the show.
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Nov 12, 2023 20:53
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traditionally the take "all sex is rape" is less so about the kinds of horrifying coercion we see in episode 33 or the planetarium and more about the environment or world a sex act occurs in not being one where genuinely free consent can occur. within that framing, no sex act at Ohtori Academy except maybe when Akio gets with the milves can be said to be consensual
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Nov 12, 2023 21:15
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I wouldn't go so far as "all sex is rape" but more alluding to what other commenters said about Akio being a kind of Lucifer figure which can represent a host of different things, foremost being selfishness at the expense of others So when they push sex onto, and/or coerce sex from others for selfish reasons or as a means to an end, like gaining power or status, that's when they're Akio. And that's easy to have in the setting they're in, where there are limited ways to cement their influence over peers (if that's their goal), and Akio's way has proven to be extremely effective in furthering that goal for some characters Said characters aren't always Akio and I think it's easy to point at the Akio appearances and say "this character is an evil villain 100% if they were ever Akio even once" but I don't really subscribe to that, I lean toward the take that he's in all of us, maybe dormant most of the time yes, but there still, and something individuals have varying degrees of self awareness toward. And some may even embrace that side despite knowing all about it which yeah could help paint that individual as a villain I apologize for the "dads and moms" off the cuff comment which I wrote way past midnight, but at the same time I still see what I was getting at, that procreation is inherently selfish (touched on by this show too). Even if both parties want it, well, we don't know how that'd be depicted in this show (yet?), so I just assumed there's a little bit of Akio showing up even then
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Nov 12, 2023 22:02
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I'm going to regret smashing this can of worms open even wider, but I gave some more thought to the dads and moms scenario. Sorry to those whom this rubs the wrong way, but I actually think Akio fits here better than I thought (This is going far off the rails and I apologize for that, but I feel the need to point it out, and salvage some thinking points from my earlier bad comment) Right now we're laser focused on the sex aspect, but if we stepped back and looked at the procreation part as a whole, it's really easy now IMO to see how Akio fits into the picture Let's compare the dad's and mom's mental calculus: Dad: - Do I want the sex? Yes/No - Do I want a child? Yes/No Mom: - Do I want the sex? Yes/No - Do I want a child? Yes/No - Do I want to strap a boulder to my body for many months? Yes/No - Do I want to experience the excruciating pain of childbirth? Yes/No - Do I want to risk irreversible and painful changes to my most sensitive physiology? Yes/No - Do I want to lose a year of my professional and social life? Yes/No Back to Dad: - Is it easy to disregard Mom's sacrifices and fail to pull my own weight as a companion alongside her? Yes/No So IMO that temptation is always going to be there. The unfairness is kind of baked into the process by nature or God or what have you, and I'm obviously not suggesting every father will run out, or desires to, but the fact that the option exists for him and not her means that Akio is lurking
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Nov 12, 2023 23:08
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I feel like when you say "Akio is in all of us" you really mean "Akio is in all men". None of this really applies to Utena's feelings for Anthy since procreation is off the table in that sense. But even still it wouldn't apply to Akio and Touga, so this is purely about "Akio is in all men who have sex with women."
Nephthys fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Nov 13, 2023 |
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Nov 12, 2023 23:55
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i just don't really see much parenting in utena. honestly this show has like the least amount of moms and dads i've ever seen for an anime partially about growing up. sex in utena seems to be all about power, control, temptation, and the fear of the unknown. maybe you can extrapolate something nicer from some of the bed scenes that don't involve akio or touga thinking about it more as i type, sex as obligation or some kind of performative duty could also be a theme with mikage, so i guess that is somewhat related to parenting at least.
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Nov 13, 2023 00:31
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Yeah parents are mentioned, but iirc the only times we see them are when Akio fucks Kanae's mom or when the Kaoru father is remarrying Anthy. Parenthood not really a theme of the show, though there's obviously a bunch of bits that are at least adjacent. Mikage feeling heteronormative pressure to settle down and Nanami with her egg especially
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Nov 13, 2023 00:46
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So I guess I have a fluid and nonspecific interpretation of Akio (convenient for goalpost moving and shoehorning him into my arguments  ) but I'm not expressing it well. IMO he doesn't represent one single thing like "rape" nor specifically "desire to reproduce at the expense of another".To me he's broadly an embodiment of general temptation/coercion and using that to gain influence over others, along the lines of what Big Leg said. Keep in mind he's been revealed as End of the World at this point, and has had at least an indirect influence on every single character in the show. So I don't think it's limited by gender. I think it's very possible for even someone as noble as Utena to have some Akio in the depths of her psyche. I absolutely do have Mikage in mind with a lot of where these thoughts are coming from, as I interpreted his arc as relating to reproduction specifically. Reproduction as an ultimate goal for many humans is how I took it, and that is why sex in particular has an outsize power when wielded as such, as people and society are programmed around sex to some degree. That's why Akio manifests as this sex object so often, but I don't think he always has to be, it's just a reflection of how humans are
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Nov 13, 2023 01:33
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let's talk about 34, 35, and 36! the final three episodes are next week. i suggest watching them in one sitting.
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Nov 13, 2023 18:58
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| # ? Jun 4, 2024 21:06 |
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Episode 34 might be the most important episode of the show to this point. Actual thoughts to come later, but this blew my mind the first time I watched Also seconding Akio that you should watch the last 3 in one sitting. I couldn't have taken a break in the middle of them if I'd tried.
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Nov 13, 2023 19:23
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