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Zulily Zoetrope posted:"philosemite" Lindsey Graham had no problem invoking George Soros as the real reason Donald Trump was arrested for campaign finance crimes. Much of the Israeli right is highly anti-Soros, and philosemitic to the point of being actual Jewish supremacists.
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Nov 10, 2023 19:25
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Frankly I can't think of any consistent moral framework where it's no big deal for Hamas to kill a random Israeli civilian, but it is a big deal for someone sympathetic to Palestine to attack a random Jewish-American civilian (or any other American civilian). If any form of resistance is justified then any form of resistance is justified. Why should a civilian in the imperial palace be entitled to more safety than a civilian in the colony? And if a civilian having a sufficiently high probability of being economically or ideologically entangled in the state makes them an appropriate target, then Americans qualify as much as Israelis. The question of morality is off-base. It is more a question of geography, collateral damage, and goals. Hamas is fighting a just war against a genocidal and occupying force. Given they, by necessity, must fight a guerrilla war, the types of civilian casualties will be categorically different than Israel’s. Israel is not fighting a war, they are committing genocide based on a 60+ year campaign of ethnic cleansing.
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Nov 10, 2023 19:26
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punishedkissinger posted:this has been a thing for a while. Netanyahu once said that the Nazi's didn't want to do the Holocaust but Muslims convinced them to. Oh yeah I remember that but there's a big push on twitter now and British right wing dumbass Douglas Murray seems to have set it off with a piece he had published in the Jewish Chronicle where he claimed the Nazis were ashamed of what they were doing but Hamas is proud so they're worse. They're even doing poo poo like repeating the clean Wehrmacht myth (this is the guy who first pushed that that journalist was holding a grenade while riding with Hamas): https://x.com/DrEliDavid/status/1722723102944006421?s=20
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Nov 10, 2023 19:27
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ummel posted:What other western governments besides the US has donated weapons and ammo to Israel since 10/7? Germany was in talks to donate ammunition, though it's not clear whether that actually came through. I don't think there's much point in focusing on "donations", because Israel is a wealthy country and can afford to pay for its weaponry - assuming countries are willing to sell to them. And Germany is certainly willing, having approved 185 military equipment purchases by Israel in the last month: quote:German arms exports to Israel have surged in the past month, as Berlin steps up support for the Middle East country’s war against Hamas.
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Nov 10, 2023 19:31
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Mean Baby posted:The question of morality is off-base. ... Hamas is fighting a just war There's a contradiction here. Whether Hamas is "fighting a just war" is only an answer to a moral question, and only relevant to the resolution of moral questions.
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Nov 10, 2023 19:35
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Civilized Fishbot posted:There's a contradiction here. Whether Hamas is "fighting a just war" is only an answer to a moral question, and only relevant to the resolution of moral questions. You need to first answer that premise, correct. From there, the issue of killing civilians is more complex. Of course killing civilians is wrong, but that doesn’t necessarily nullify the morality of the war.
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Nov 10, 2023 19:38
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Much of the Israeli right is highly anti-Soros, and philosemitic to the point of being actual Jewish supremacists. The Israeli right (or at least Netanyahu) is also friendly with gentlemen like Viktor Orbán, Jair Bolsonaro and Donald Trump. They share the US right's view that anti-Semitism is perfectly cool so long as whoever's spouting it is on board with Israel specifically. I guess you could call that philosemitism, but at that point it becomes a third thing that is not opposition to anti-Semitism. E: and also the whole effort to sanitize literal Nazi Germany in order to paint Palestinians as somehow worse, which I am frankly struggling to believe is a tactic they're using even after seeing Bibi paint Hitler as a mufti puppet Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Nov 10, 2023 |
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Nov 10, 2023 19:46
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Groovelord Neato posted:Oh yeah I remember that but there's a big push on twitter now and British right wing dumbass Douglas Murray seems to have set it off with a piece he had published in the Jewish Chronicle where he claimed the Nazis were ashamed of what they were doing but Hamas is proud so they're worse. They're even doing poo poo like repeating the clean Wehrmacht myth (this is the guy who first pushed that that journalist was holding a grenade while riding with Hamas): Taking beats from Ordinary Men and using it to prop up clean wehrmacht/Nazis were really sad about it mythos is quite the move
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Nov 10, 2023 19:51
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BUUNNI posted:Besides, you know, the actual genocide of Palestinians this was my biggest fear and one of the reasons why it doesn't seem outlandish that the Zionists will eventually turn against the United States and the West when everything is settled. Not likely. Israel pols actually did some legwork in becoming more 'independent' back in 2010, after Obama very softly said settlements were not cool (while keeping the money and UN vetos flowing). The answer they got to was basically: They can't. US support is what keeps EU support going, and without those and the 4 billion a year worth of weapons, they'll be facing a big drop in quality of life, international litigation, and basically turn into Iran-lite. No wonder that they then literally had their PM travel to the US a few years later to address Congress and poo poo all over the party that -might- tell them to cool things down once in a blue moon.
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Nov 10, 2023 19:51
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Sephyr posted:Not likely. Israel pols actually did some legwork in becoming more 'independent' back in 2010, after Obama very softly said settlements were not cool (while keeping the money and UN vetos flowing). I mean the Saudis and Turks treat the US and its citizens like utter poo poo but we still haven't our support for them, I think Israel will start lashing out in the same manner but we won't end our support of them either, especially the Evangelicals want Israeli Jews to trigger Armageddon or what have you. But I see your point. Unfortunately there is no easy way out of this for any of the parties involved. Just bad news all around.
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Nov 10, 2023 20:03
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On 10/7 litigation: I'm still firm on my prior stance, but it's fairly concerning just how much friendly fire appears to have happened on that day; we started out with that interview from a survivor alleging such & that a tank fired shells into hostage-filled houses, then we got that interview with a soldier who said that they didn't go in until tanks started firing off at the houses, then the helicopter pilots who say that they didn't have confidence in who was a Hamas soldier and who was a random person (the article framed "walking at a moderate pace" as an incredible feat of subversion), then the lot of cars that look immolated from above rather than hit from the sides by RPG's or conventional guns, and then most recently the helicopter footage. A part of me wonders if the private screenings of 10/7 footage come more from a desire to not have it scrutinized more than anything. I've not made it a secret how little I think of the IDF's ground forces, but I still doubt they were so incredibly incompetent that they managed to shoot 1100 civilians themselves, however each one of these revelations brings to mind the sequence of events around Operation Protective Edge: from "Hamas kidnapped and killed these teens" to "we have to destroy these tunnels so they cant do it again" to "it's alright that Palestinian homes are being burnt down because it's revenge" to "Perhaps Hamas delegated doing this to another group" to "turns out Hamas had nothing to do with it, we're still bombing Gaza & destroying vital smuggling tunnels though." As for the topic of war crimes, I've said before that I think it's important to differentiate into two categories; war crimes committed individually without orders to do so from commanding personnel, and war crimes planned by those in charge: The former is unavoidable in war and can mainly be judged on whether or not the force/government bothers to punish them. Soldiers by an large are young, willing to kill, mentally unbalanced, paranoid, often poorly disciplined, and often have significant freedom to do as they wish to civilians in "foreign" territory. The only way to avoid this is to not go to war in the first place, which for various reasons can end up not being a choice. Examples: There were countless instances of rape on both eastern and western fronts from the Allies in WW2, and there were countless instances of the USSR executing Nazi & Nazi collaborator PoW's, but neither were mandated by the generals who managed the war, and few would argue that WW2 shouldn't have been fought because of that; instead we denounce the governments that opted not to punish these practices as they were discovered. The latter cannot be deferred; it was a deliberate choice with all that entails. The only variable is in whether or not it had any tactical merit, and even that is obviously disputed as acceptable by many. The use of firebombing & nuclear weapons on Japan in WW2 was a war crime targeting civilians whos tactical merit was purely in not wanting the USSR to expand into the pacific. The mass-execution of Polish officers by the USSR was a war crime whos tactical merit was purely in trying to reduce Poland's future offensive capabilities through the brute-force slaughter of anyone who knew how to go to war. As it relates to I/P: The decision to breach the wall around Gaza was not a war crime, nor was the decision to go after military targets. Hamas alleges that they did not target civilians; we don't know this for sure, and if it turned out that they did, then that would fall into the latter category. If it was the byproduct of individual Hamas soldiers attacking civilians it would be the former. The decision to bomb Gazan civilian utilities, especially if there's no actual actual tactical benefit to this (we've no concrete proof whatsoever that Israel's rage-bombings have severely impacted the tunnel system, beyond the US State Department flippantly brushing off the refugee camp massacre as "they died because a tunnel collapsed and sunk in") would fall into the latter; jet pilots typically don't roam the countryside using their bombs as they see fit, they have targets assigned to them. The only way for this to not be the case would be if the IDF is at a level of incompetency not anticipated by any IDF skeptic ever, but if that were the case it would fall into the former. In a sane world, where The International Rules Based Order was a real thing and not a joke about US hegemony, the Hamas generals/Hamas soldiers that massacred civilians would be on trial at the Hague, alongside the Israeli generals that bombed half of Gaza's buildings & every above-ground utility out of revenge, and the Israeli defense ministers aware of & condoning it. Anyways, to crosspost some actual content: Sancho Banana posted:New polls from Ma'ariv. I've not followed these to see where the direction has shifted, but at a glance it seems as if the IDF casualties, economic damage, ramping missile strikes, and international ostracization is having an effect on the less diehard Israelis; 59% support a ceasefire in exchange for hostages. If this is a credible poll then, amusingly (in a dark way) I think this means that just about every country in the entire world is majority in favor of some form of ceasefire. Shame the only opinions that matter in the world are Biden & Bibi. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Nov 10, 2023 |
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Nov 10, 2023 20:23
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Main Paineframe posted:Germany was in talks to donate ammunition, though it's not clear whether that actually came through. So not exactly BUUNNI posted:Yea but pretty much every single western government is still lining up to "donate" as many weapons and ammo they want to carry out whatever genocidal campaign his little Zionist heart desires. Thanks. Neurolimal posted:Hamas alleges that they did not target civilians; we don't know this for sure, and if it turned out that they did, then that would fall into the latter category. You have to be pretty deep in a media black hole to believe this. There's videos of green headband Hamas militants killing civilians at the festival.  bc I'm too lazy to screen the whole thread https://x.com/Osinttechnical/status/1711256232646897813 ummel fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Nov 10, 2023 |
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Nov 10, 2023 20:28
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quote:As for the topic of war crimes, I've said before that I think it's important to differentiate into two categories; war crimes committed individually without orders to do so from commanding personnel, and war crimes planned by those in charge: Nope. Absolutely not. They need to be treated the same and should be treated the same. It is the commanding personnel's job to prevent that from happening, not merely to not just command it. If they are in command it is their responsibility and if they can't do that then they are culpable for it. This is important both because the commander must be actively stopping these things, not merely not ordering them, and to remove any sort of defense of "I didn't TELL them to kill those people, they did it on their own."
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Nov 10, 2023 20:30
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Mean Baby posted:You need to first answer that premise, correct. TBH, I think there's also a huge difference in how civilians are killed. If they were explicitly targeted and murdered, that will almost always make me unsympathetic towards a group*. If a civilian was killed because, for example, they were by a military target that got destroyed, I could view that as anywhere from unacceptable to that's terrible but... (depending on power dynamics/etc) *In this case, both Hamas and Israel.
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Nov 10, 2023 20:38
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ImpAtom posted:Nope. Absolutely not. They need to be treated the same and should be treated the same. It is the commanding personnel's job to prevent that from happening, not merely to not just command it. If they are in command it is their responsibility and if they can't do that then they are culpable for it. This is important both because the commander must be actively stopping these things, not merely not ordering them, and to remove any sort of defense of "I didn't TELL them to kill those people, they did it on their own." There is a major difference between a rag tag guerrilla group breaking out from a concentration camp and (allegedly) massacring a rave as a crime of opportunity and an entire military apparatus regularly targeting hospitals, schools, refugee camps, maternity wards, homes, journalists, ambulances, etc. One is premeditated, the other is not. One is at a massive scale, the other is not.
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Nov 10, 2023 20:42
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ummel posted:You have to be pretty deep in a media black hole to believe this. I could believe that the generals didn't give orders to attack civilians. As you might have guessed from the post & prior posts I have a dim view on how the average soldier conducts themselves in war; a Hamas soldier is no different from any other in terms of violence. The claim that their soldiers didn't target civilians period would be bullshit, of course.
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Nov 10, 2023 20:50
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Nov 16, 2023 |
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Nov 10, 2023 20:59
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mannerup posted:lmao you are such an absolute sick piece of poo poo of a person There are 2 minutes of video evidence of an Israeli helicopters killing people fleeing from the rave. We don’t have all the facts of what happened. And last I saw, the count of children who died were, thankfully, very low. Edit: and just to be clear this is an annoying smear. The appeal to children dying while over 5,000 Palestinians have died, and likely directly targeted as part of their genocidal campaign, is abhorrent. As for what happened on 10/7, I place just as much blame for civilian and child deaths on Israel for running a concentration camp regardless of the circumstances of how they died. It is still worth uncovering the facts as they are important. Mean Baby fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Nov 10, 2023 |
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Nov 10, 2023 21:01
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Mean Baby posted:There are 2 minutes of video evidence of an Israeli helicopters killing people fleeing from the rave. We don’t have all the facts of what happened. Stop lying, we know what happened. Hamas was at that music festival and were the ones murdering/abducting people. They even released a video of a hostage that they abducted from there: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/16/world/middleeast/hamas-hostage-video-israel.html (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Kalit fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Nov 10, 2023 |
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Nov 10, 2023 21:06
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Nov 16, 2023 |
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Nov 10, 2023 21:11
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Kalit posted:Stop lying, we know what happened. Hamas was at that music festival and were the ones murdering/abducting people. They even released a video of a hostage that they abducted from there: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/16/world/middleeast/hamas-hostage-video-israel.html There is a pretty big difference between taking prisoners and murdering. And again, no one is debating that Palestinians killed Israelis and vice-versa. No one is debating that Hamas killed civilians. I don’t think anyone would debate that Israel also killed their own civilians at this point. The entire conversation around whether Hamas is fighting a just war is, perhaps purposefully, being obfuscated by a constant refrain to what happened on 10/7. It is as if history begins and ends on that date.
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Nov 10, 2023 21:22
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Mean Baby posted:There is a pretty big difference between taking prisoners and murdering. So, what happened? Was Hamas just abducting people while Israeli helicopters were supposedly Mean Baby posted:killing people fleeing from the rave And to be clear in what I'm objecting to, you seemed to have been trying to sow doubt in the fact of Hamas murdering civilians when you used the word "allegedly" in your previous post when stating Mean Baby posted:(allegedly) massacring a rave as a crime of opportunity
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Nov 10, 2023 21:32
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The State of Israel has long been completely happy to see their actions spark retaliation against uninvolved Jews living abroad; partly because it allows them to reinforce their claims of acting justly when they commit some new atrocity, but mostly because they are very much in favor of being seen by Jews globally as being the only safe place for Jews. If you can't walk around Buenos Aires or London or New York City safely, well, you can come to Israel because you will be safe in Tel Aviv. This is also part of their reaction to the attacks a month ago, because suddenly it showed that no you very much might not be safe in Israel. The need to restore that illusory belief in safety is one of the drivers of Israel's hideous crimes in Gaza.
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Nov 10, 2023 21:38
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Mean Baby posted:There are 2 minutes of video evidence of an Israeli helicopters killing people fleeing from the rave. We don’t have all the facts of what happened. This is incorrect. https://x.com/Osinttechnical/status/1722639021350776903 Mean Baby posted:That is fair. I used “allegedly” as I disagree with the usage of the word massacre as the primary description of what happened on 10/7 based on what we know. What word would you use instead of massacre? \/\/\/ ummel fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Nov 10, 2023 |
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Nov 10, 2023 21:39
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Kalit posted:So, what happened? Was Hamas just abducting people while Israeli helicopters was supposedly That is fair. I used “allegedly” as I disagree with the usage of the word massacre as the primary description of what happened on 10/7 based on what we know.
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Nov 10, 2023 21:39
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Ms Adequate posted:The State of Israel has long been completely happy to see their actions spark retaliation against uninvolved Jews living abroad; This is true but there is A LOT of very recent evidence that Israeli security forces have zero issues brutalizing Jewish communities within their Israel's own borders, such as the hassidic נָטוֹרֵי קַרְתָּא sect.
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Nov 10, 2023 21:41
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ummel posted:This is incorrect. Be careful with looking at the links in this tweet as they contain footage of dead people. Digging deeper into that footage and reading what others are saying, the helicopter footage may actually be of people entering and/or leaving Gaza. Its unconfirmed footage with no real good source on where it originated from.
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Nov 10, 2023 21:46
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ummel posted:This is incorrect. There is a different video, I don’t really want to post it. I tried to avoid that stuff, I don’t even watch Al-Jazeera. I think the word “killed” or “died” depending on the circumstances is fine. Massacre, in my opinion implies premeditation, fault, intent, and a single event. For the 1,400 people who died, not all, or potentially a majority, were massacred by a single entity. I think when we are talking about the full casualties on 10/7, it is too simplistic to be described in one word.
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Nov 10, 2023 21:54
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Mean Baby posted:For the 1,400 people who died, not all, or potentially a majority, were massacred by a single entity. Israel has lowered the death toll to 1200 quote:JERUSALEM, Nov 10 (Reuters) - A spokesperson for Israel's foreign ministry said on Friday that the death toll from the Oct. 7 Hamas attack in southern Israel had been revised to around 1,200 from a previous government estimate of 1,400. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-revises-death-toll-oct-7-hamas-attack-around-1200-2023-11-10/
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Nov 10, 2023 21:57
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Groovelord Neato posted:Israel has lowered the death toll to 1200 I was going to post that I keep seeing news sites claim the death toll was 1400, but Israel has not yet released the full list of victims, and has their own official number somewhere around 1100. Over 50% of the deaths were also police & military, and many of the civilians were armed, or had military training as well. So I don't know where the 1400 number originated from. As uncomfortable as it is, I think its very important that we acknowledge that much of the destruction, and even some of the deaths, were due to the IDF's own actions as well. It helps no one in the future for preventing these sort of attacks, to ignore that the IDF was not keeping anyone safe and that this was not their objective.
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Nov 10, 2023 22:00
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I said come in! posted:I was going to post that I keep seeing news sites claim the death toll was 1400, but Israel has not yet released the full list of victims, and has their own official number somewhere around 1100. Over 50% of the deaths were also police & military, and many of the civilians were armed, or had military training as well. So I don't know where the 1400 number originated from. As uncomfortable as it is, I think its very important that we acknowledge that much of the destruction, and even some of the deaths, were due to the IDF's own actions as well. It helps no one in the future for preventing these sort of attacks, to ignore that the IDF was not keeping anyone safe and that this was not their objective.
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Nov 10, 2023 22:04
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Mean Baby posted:There is a different video, I don’t really want to post it. I tried to avoid that stuff, I don’t even watch Al-Jazeera. OP was about the festival massacre, and now you've shifted the frame of reference to all casualties on 10/7 I said come in! posted:I was going to post that I keep seeing news sites claim the death toll was 1400, but Israel has not yet released the full list of victims, and has their own official number somewhere around 1100. Over 50% of the deaths were also police & military, and many of the civilians were armed, or had military training as well. So I don't know where the 1400 number originated from. As uncomfortable as it is, I think its very important that we acknowledge that much of the destruction, and even some of the deaths, were due to the IDF's own actions as well. It helps no one in the future for preventing these sort of attacks, to ignore that the IDF was not keeping anyone safe and that this was not their objective. Probably 1100 + 250+ (unconfirmed at the time, presumed dead until confirmed) prisoners = ~1400. Police killed during military action are generally considered civilians. I haven't seen anything like 50% of deaths being military personnel. I find that hard to believe. Edit- the current IDF death count is 354, including everything since 10/7, so ummel fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Nov 10, 2023 |
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Nov 10, 2023 22:10
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I missed that Israel is trying to blame the al-Shifa hospital strike on a misfired militant rocket. They really can't help themselves.
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Nov 10, 2023 22:12
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I said come in! posted:I was going to post that I keep seeing news sites claim the death toll was 1400, but Israel has not yet released the full list of victims, and has their own official number somewhere around 1100. Over 50% of the deaths were also police & military, and many of the civilians were armed, or had military training as well. So I don't know where the 1400 number originated from. As uncomfortable as it is, I think its very important that we acknowledge that much of the destruction, and even some of the deaths, were due to the IDF's own actions as well. It helps no one in the future for preventing these sort of attacks, to ignore that the IDF was not keeping anyone safe and that this was not their objective. Honestly the whole "had military training" thing as if it changes things has some pretty gross implications considering the number of countries that have or had conscription. Either they're active duty military or not. If they're not and they're unarmed they're civilians. You don't get to be "Oh they were trained in the military at some point so they aren't civilians". It's not like someone rolling into a legion hall and blasting a bunch of Korean War veterans would be anything but killing civilians. Or in an example involving younger people, if someone shot up a South Korean university you can't just go "Well technically all the men had military training because of conscription and *could* be called up maybe if North Korea invaded so they're not civilians." Sure a large number of the dead were active duty soldiers but trying to shoehorn in anyone with military training as if an unarmed person who completed mandatory conscription years ago is different than a civilian is wrong IMO. In countries with mandatory conscription that line of thinking gets dangerously close to "All military aged males (and females in Israel's case) are not civilians" and historically that's a one way road to war crime land. Mr Luxury Yacht fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Nov 10, 2023 |
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Nov 10, 2023 22:27
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:The Israeli right (or at least Netanyahu) is also friendly with gentlemen like Viktor Orbán, Jair Bolsonaro and Donald Trump. They share the US right's view that anti-Semitism is perfectly cool so long as whoever's spouting it is on board with Israel specifically. Yeah of course philosemitism is compatible with antisemitism, it's a whole Virgin-Whore complex. It all comes down to a basically theological view of the world where Jews are still the main character of history just like in the (Jewish or Christian) Bible. I don't think Lindsey Graham wants to see the streets run red with Jewish blood, and I don't think we need that to explain why he's 100% behind Israeli atrocities. He's 100% behind Israeli atrocities because his politics include fear and contempt toward Muslims and Muslim countries, and for this reason he believes in Diaspora Jews who need to be protected and Israeli Jews who need to be armed and encouraged.
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Nov 10, 2023 22:47
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Oh, okay, I would agree with that. I must've misunderstood your original point.
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Nov 10, 2023 22:54
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As an aside - my mother sometimes uses 'anti-Semitism' as a broad term that describes discrimination against Arabs and Muslims, as well as the more specific bigotry against Jews. Is this unusual, extremely unusual, or more common than I think?
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Nov 10, 2023 23:08
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ungulateman posted:As an aside - my mother sometimes uses 'anti-Semitism' as a broad term that describes discrimination against Arabs and Muslims, as well as the more specific bigotry against Jews. Is this unusual, extremely unusual, or more common than I think? It's pretty unusual and, I'm sure your mom is great and all but we gotta be straight shooters here, pretty dumb. The origin of the term "antisemitism" is German attempts to re-envision hatred of Jewish people in particular from a religion thing to an more scientific-seeming ethnic-origin idea. So while in theory from looking at the word parts, it should mean "hatred of anyone who's semitic" in practice it has always meant "hatred of Jews specifically." Which is a reason not to use the word, but it's just annoying to use a word to mean what you've decided it ought to mean, even if you have a really good reason for feeling that way. It's like that joke about how people park in a driveway and drive down a parkway. That's not justification for an individual person to start using "driveway" to mean "road down which you drive" and parkway to mean "place where you park" because it just creates confusion. It's frustrating pedantry (when most people use it, I don't know your mom), so it makes sense I see it often on the internet but never in real life. It's equivalent to people who call Elon Musk an "African American" as if that term is not a functional synonym for "Black American" Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Nov 10, 2023 |
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Nov 10, 2023 23:13
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ummel posted:OP was about the festival massacre, and now you've shifted the frame of reference to all casualties on 10/7 It’s a challenge to talk about 10/7 because the visual images we have are primarily of the rave versus the much wider series of events. They are also just a few snippets which (not you) have been used to claim there were mass rapes, babies beheaded, etc. Even with the rave we don’t know most of the details. It also certainly wasn’t premeditated by Hamas. All that is to say, I think using words like “Massacre”, “savage”, “brutal”, “terrorism” create an emotional false equivalency between Hamas and the Israeli government to delegitimize the larger guerrilla campaign against apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and genocide.
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Nov 10, 2023 23:24
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Mean Baby posted:It’s a challenge to talk about 10/7 because the visual images we have are primarily of the rave versus the much wider series of events. They are also just a few snippets which (not you) have been used to claim there were mass rapes, babies beheaded, etc. I don't share, or understand, your idea that a massacre has to be premeditated. I googled some definitions - not to try to own you with the dictionary but because I hate to understand words wrong - and I couldn't find any definitions that had that element. Wikipedia says "A massacre is an event of killing people who are not engaged in hostilities or are defenseless." That sounds true to me and it happened in many places in Israel on 10/7. It's happening all over Palestine right now. I think words like “massacre”, “savage”, “brutal”, and “terrorism” are totally correct descriptions of any military operation where civilians are targeted or even killed with indifference. I think worrying about what words might trigger which politically convenient or inconvenient emotional responses should be left to politicians. It's our luxury as internet nobodies that we get to forego those worries and describe things as they are. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Nov 10, 2023 |
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Nov 10, 2023 23:37
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