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Countzer posted:I really hope Hong Lu gets his poo poo kicked in. I don't hate him but it'd be immensely satisfying to have that smug prick who acts all ignorant just to flaunt his upbringing/hit nerves get got like that. In one of his IDs his grandmother literally sold him to K Corp so that could alter his body to be unable to survive long term outside his life support tube and the two things he's allowed to do from that point on are kill people and sleep, and he's so starved for any sort of stimulating experiences he gets really into killing people. Edit: Obviously you still don't have to like him and it's reasonable to find him grating, but it's actually a very essential part of his character that he is sincerely just that ignorant about how most people live, and basically is never trying to actually hurt someone's feelings or lord it over them, and before he left his family's compound he assumed everyone lived like he did, or lived like his family's employees did at worst. It's such an essential part of understanding his character it's part of his character file. At worst, he tries to make jokes to lighten the mood and they end up landing wrong because his context is different from everyone else's. And if you want him to get got, well, it's pretty strongly implied his childhood already did that. The thing about growing up so isolated is you have no way of properly judging if what's happening to you is abuse, or if it really is just what happens to everyone else and you need to get over it because you're not that special. PetraCore fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Dec 2, 2023 |
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Dec 2, 2023 00:10
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PetraCore posted:He is genuinely ignorant and just because his upbringing was wealthy doesn't mean it was good, it's been very strongly implied his family dynamics are absolutely rancid, and it's outright stated he literally can't comprehend the idea of a loving supportive family and he was put through intensive physical training from a young age to the point I'm pretty sure even just that part was child abuse in and of itself. If this theory is correct, then he's basically a living weapon made for Faust/Limbus Company to use. Hell, he might even be a homonculus of some kind, and possibly way younger than he appears. This would fit with what I've heard about his relation with the story he's from, where he's apparently an anthropomorphization of a rock rather than an actual character in the story.
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Dec 2, 2023 00:56
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"Hong Lu is a living weapon for Faust's personal use" would be a very funny way to justify why all his IDs are good.
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Dec 2, 2023 01:04
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Yinlock posted:that's how it's supposed to go, that chain of events happens when the boss hits half hp or so It is possible he hit half HP. Ishmael corroded and launched off a full-force Ardor Blossom Star that did 430+ damage at one point, and I kind of lost track of what happened after that.
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Dec 2, 2023 01:05
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Quackles posted:It is possible he hit half HP. Ishmael corroded and launched off a full-force Ardor Blossom Star that did 430+ damage at one point, and I kind of lost track of what happened after that.
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Dec 2, 2023 01:38
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GilliamYaeger posted:At this point I'm like, 90% sure that his family explicitly raised him as a weapon for Faust since he's not just being sold off, he's being deliberately sent to different groups that Faust is part of in different realities. This is almost certainly to generate identities he can use in the "prime" reality. It feels a lot like what people are suspecting that Faust is doing (joining different groups in different realities then sharing the information with her other selves so she can learn everything) and I don't think that's a coincidence, hence why I suspect that Hong Lu's family is explicitly working with Faust.
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Dec 2, 2023 01:41
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PetraCore posted:He is an actual character in the story and he is a living celestial rock, presuming his character is based on Jia Baoyu. Given his half-brother that hooked up with Hermann still uses the Jia family name, I assumed Hong Lu was a pseudonym Jia Baoyu was using, but now that I think about it, it's possible he could be some sort of construct based on or made out of Jia Baoyu...? Or maybe, more specifically, his special eye is that celestial rock and the rest of the body was grown. What if Hong Lu is a singularity or something from the Outskirts? Not useful in mass production but was used to create something specific? Or maybe the rest of him is normal, it's just the eye that was inserted at some point to see if it would enhance him? Granted, that all seems pretty unlikely but "Giant eyeball that spills tears that revert a creature to a previous state" would not have been my first answer for K-Corp's singularity. KobunFan fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Dec 2, 2023 |
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Dec 2, 2023 01:49
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KobunFan posted:Or maybe, more specifically, his special eye is that celestial rock and the rest of the body was grown. What if Hong Lu is a singularity or something from the Outskirts? Not useful in mass production but was used to create something specific? That said... Faust does say anything is possible in the Outskirts. If Hong Lu is based on Jia Baoyu, who is both a human from the Jia noble family and the jade stone he was born clutching, because he's actually a celestial entity made of jade who requested to live a lifetime as a human... my guess is something very weird involving the Outskirts happened for his family to obtain that 'piece of jade'. His Lui ID does tell Faust and Yi Sang it's not a prosthetic, so it's possible he was just born that way. I wonder if he was born with some strange power and his family immediately decided to weaponize him?
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Dec 2, 2023 02:15
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Quackles posted:It is possible he hit half HP. Ishmael corroded and launched off a full-force Ardor Blossom Star that did 430+ damage at one point, and I kind of lost track of what happened after that. lol that'd do it e: KazigluBey posted:I was going to ask if that happened to any of the other baseline EGOs after their respective Cantos concluded. afaik nope
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Dec 2, 2023 02:44
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Speaking of theory, we know that Dante is the 10th Sinner, right? We also know that the Dieci Association use knowledge to power themselves (And lose this knowledge upon using it). Dieci is ten in italian. Dante was said to be big shot before their amnesia. What if Dante used all their memories to power up their clock so that they could revive the sinner? This would mean that they are part of Faust plan since she is the one to find the sinner one by one. Anyway, that's just some thought.
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Dec 2, 2023 02:52
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GilliamYaeger posted:At this point I'm like, 90% sure that his family explicitly raised him as a weapon for Faust since he's not just being sold off, he's being deliberately sent to different groups that Faust is part of in different realities. This is almost certainly to generate identities he can use in the "prime" reality. It feels a lot like what people are suspecting that Faust is doing (joining different groups in different realities then sharing the information with her other selves so she can learn everything) and I don't think that's a coincidence, hence why I suspect that Hong Lu's family is explicitly working with Faust. I don't think Faust has that kind of clout. I think he might be a sudden runaway or estranged somehow which is why he's so massively out of touch
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Dec 2, 2023 02:56
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PetraCore posted:Some of Hong Lu has to be human or he wouldn't be allowed in the City. Angela was possible to slip by for a time, but she also very specifically wasn't allowed to walk around like Hong Lu. A creation that was entirely artificial like Angela very specifically wouldn't be able to gain the experiences Hong Lu has that are vital to his effectiveness as a sinner. It has to be about mentality or psychology somehow, which Hong Lu would probably fit inside regardless of his origins. Yinlock posted:I don't think Faust has that kind of clout. I think he might be a sudden runaway or estranged somehow which is why he's so massively out of touch
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Dec 2, 2023 03:11
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GilliamYaeger posted:Angela almost counted as human in the Head's eyes before she threw it away the end of Ruina so clearly their definition of "human" isn't necessarily the obvious or sane one, and extrapolating from that there's clearly ways for things that aren't legally "human" in the Head's eyes to become legally "human." Additionally R Corp's clones are also humans - the law against cloning specifically prevents two instances of the same person existing for more than a week real time - so you don't need to be naturally born to count, and Sweepers and full-body cyborgs both count as human as well so the criteria can't be biological.
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Dec 2, 2023 04:20
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PetraCore posted:Hmmm, good points. I thought it was stated somewhere in Library of Ruina that full body cyborgs have to keep their brains somewhere in their body, though? I'm not sure how that works for Sweepers, but I assume there's something inside them encasing a human brain, even if that brain has been altered somehow.
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Dec 2, 2023 05:47
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PetraCore posted:He is genuinely ignorant- I will state, that a big part of my dislike of him is because I do not believe this particular point is true. I am aware of the rest. But the impression I have gotten is that his ignorance is acted up to give off and cultivate a particular image of him. That being, that he's a completely ignorant rich boy. I believe Hong Lu is much more cunning than he lets on. As an example, the times he sets off Heathcliff aren't accidental, I feel he does it because he gets amusement out of pushing Heathcliff's buttons. Also, you know, his base EGO is Land of Illusion. I feel it doubly reflects on his upbringing and on himself. The Hong Lu we see is an illusion to hide the real Hong Lu, probably because of the trauma of his hosed up upbringing. I may well be off the mark and should take him at face value. If it is genuine ignorance, then the reasons for my dislike are greatly diminished. We shall see when it's his turn on the spotlight.
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Dec 2, 2023 06:56
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Countzer posted:I will state, that a big part of my dislike of him is because I do not believe this particular point is true. I am aware of the rest. But the impression I have gotten is that his ignorance is acted up to give off and cultivate a particular image of him. That being, that he's a completely ignorant rich boy. I believe Hong Lu is much more cunning than he lets on. As an example, the times he sets off Heathcliff aren't accidental, I feel he does it because he gets amusement out of pushing Heathcliff's buttons. Also, you know, his base EGO is Land of Illusion. I feel it doubly reflects on his upbringing and on himself. The Hong Lu we see is an illusion to hide the real Hong Lu, probably because of the trauma of his hosed up upbringing. I agree that Hong Lu's probably more cunning and socially aware than he lets on, but I feel confident about two things. One, he's genuinely a effete dork with weird tastes*. Two, he genuinely enjoys literally every lifestyle possible more than living with his family. I don't have K Corp Hong Lu so I can't speak for that one, but in every other time he is so glad to not be there. So, I rank him a lot higher than you do. *He does act like a much more normal coworker in W Corp, which does agree with your point about him intentionally acting in ways to present the image he wants and all that, but he's enough of an unrestrained freak in Hook Office when he has the fewest social mores restricting him that I believe he's genuinely weird even when he isn't a serial killer with a license.
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Dec 2, 2023 08:38
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K Corp Hong Lu is considered mildly terrifying in the specific way his weirdboy behaviors emerge by the person he's talking to in that one bc he just wants to be decanted and start smashing (because it's the only time he gets to do anything but float in a tube, it's probably the least genuinely happy he is with the overall situation in an ID I've seen). He's just an offputting weirdo (affectionate) by default in most of his IDs but even at his most normal he still wants to see the faces of people horrified by learning the truth behind the warp trains. He's kind of a freak. E: misremembered the order of events slightly; K Corp Hong Lu is bored out of his mind when he isn't decanted for combat (which he enjoys bc novel experiences) or in suspended animation, and the fact that he immediately starts chatting when woken is remarked upon as unusual. He's also considered annoying as well as unsettling and weird by the scientist. Like Clockwork fucked around with this message at 08:59 on Dec 2, 2023 |
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Dec 2, 2023 08:53
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I'll admit to this Canto hitting me harder than the previous ones- I resonated pretty hard with Yi Sang, but to me a lot of this is about Ishmael learning to cope with the grief and guilt of losing Queequeg and the rest of the Pequod's crew. Her obsession with tracking down and killing Ahab was a way of coping with her loss, blaming Ahab for all of her pain- which, to be fair, Ahab absolutely was the reason everyone there died. Ishmael didn't have a "what next" for after she killed Ahab (or, what would've been a more realistic expectation, found the Mermaid she'd turned into and turned it into goulash). I can absolutely understand the feeling of just... not having a plan for the future because you don't expect to live that long. Ishmael was just as suicidal as Yi Sang; she just wanted to take someone with her first. Seeing her 'dead' KazigluBey posted:That's the one bit of Ahab I didn't really buy: I get the singular, focused obsession - it's the whole character she is. SO, why does she expend a not-insignificant amount of energy and (more to the point) focus on taunting Ishmael about other stuff? You would think with the Heart right there she would be singularly consumed, and the Limbus Krew would be seen at most as being in the way, but there's a lot of "you never listened/never followed orders" and "the theme of this Canto is we are the same Ismael, you're just like me, so killll meeee" which, idk, felt like it muddied the point a bit before slamming right back into the obsession as soon as Ismael refuses to take the bait and killsteals. For one, those taunts are Ahab's modus operandi, and she absolutely hit home- Ishmael blamed herself for not being able to save everyone, and suffered from intense survivor's guilt. I do think part of her self-destructive obsession was a way for her to atone for her failure, and Ahab immediately hit on all of Ishmael's true motivations and insecurities. That's how she gets you, she worms her way into your doubts and then makes herself the solution to all of your problems (that she caused), thereby making herself indispensable. Near the end, Ishmael was pretty close to just accepting Ahab's abuse, and that's where Ahab turns around, "forgives" her, and then assimilates her back into her crew- Or, alternatively, as other people have said, Ishmael kills her and becomes the next Ahab. Ahab wins either way. Though, a lot of this just may be projection from me, but I can't help reading all this from how Ishmael acted during the final acts of the Canto. Secondly, I think the reason Ahab turns on Dante really is just a mix of pride and being a complete control freak. Ahab can't control Dante, because she can't even hear them talk, so she has no way to know how to manipulate them- And the Sinners listen to Dante, not Ahab. If Dante's there, she can't use the Sinners for her own ends, and the idea of that is so infuriating to her that she backfills some ridiculous excuse about Dante being a liability in combat (despite bringing Pip along, who's a literal child) and demands their head - all in spite of the fact that they've already gotten past all of the Whale's defenses and there was no threats left besides the ones in her head. Because not only can she not control Dante, if she gets the kill with Dante's help, then it wouldn't really be her kill, because she had someone else's help. Her crew doesn't count, obviously, since she sees them as extensions of herself- so, she has to get Dante out of the way first, and take control of the Sinners as well (or just crush them). Yeah, she made a very stupid decision by attacking Dante. That's the point. Ahab shot herself in the foot out of pride when she could have gotten exactly what she wanted, and got screwed out of the kill because of it. Also remember that Ahab's not just a foil to Ishmael, she's also a foil to Dante, who's entirely disgusted by her willingness to send her men to their deaths without feeling anything at all. This Canto really shows how far Dante's come as a leader. VinnyDonuts fucked around with this message at 09:24 on Dec 2, 2023 |
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Dec 2, 2023 09:19
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....you know what I want? I want "Pequod Crew Ishmael" Sinclair or Don Quixote ID. 
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Dec 2, 2023 12:14
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Countzer posted:I will state, that a big part of my dislike of him is because I do not believe this particular point is true. I am aware of the rest. But the impression I have gotten is that his ignorance is acted up to give off and cultivate a particular image of him. That being, that he's a completely ignorant rich boy. I believe Hong Lu is much more cunning than he lets on. As an example, the times he sets off Heathcliff aren't accidental, I feel he does it because he gets amusement out of pushing Heathcliff's buttons. Also, you know, his base EGO is Land of Illusion. I feel it doubly reflects on his upbringing and on himself. The Hong Lu we see is an illusion to hide the real Hong Lu, probably because of the trauma of his hosed up upbringing. It'd be interesting to go through and see if his rate of rancid remarks has decreased at all, I think he's gotten a bit more tactful over time because I don't remember anything he said that was particularly bad in Canto V, so I think he's probably learning...?
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Dec 2, 2023 15:13
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PetraCore posted:Yeah, that's my biggest criticism of Limbus Company's story, I think. I understand the intention to drop 3 Cantos at once and show off how that works, but it means Greg and Rodya got shortchanged and their Cantos are all set-up for larger story stuff with very little personal revelations for them. Sinclair's Canto is pretty good despite being from season 1, so I think if I were suggesting an alternative story pace with all that in mind, I'd have had the game release with Gregor and Rodya's Cantos but not Sinclair's, so they both get more focus and complexity. Huge agree here with the addendum that IMO Rodya's is by far the weakest. Gregor has most of his being setup, but the whole dungeon is an exploration of him with the interactions with the G-Corp soldiers and the trip into his memories is great. Rodya's...isn't. Like, it's funny and all, and the interactions where we get to see her beyond the facade like in the game with the gang leaders are great, but there's pretty much no story resonance despite the whole 'gambler in J Corp' thing, which makes sense because it's established that she has nothing to do with this place or anyone here except for that Sonya is active. Only Floor 3 really digs into her head, but even then it's almost an anti-catharsis. There isn't even a boss battle at the end, the Sinners just run away and Rodya goes back to deflecting and playing everyone's fun big sis as soon as they're out. I do think this was intentional. Rodya deflects and avoids like a pro and the end includes multiple characters, including pre-development Yi Sang and Vergilius questioning how fast she 'got over' this and why she's minimizing it so much. But it's really, really unsatisfying. It was unsatisfying when we had these big meaty chapters(and Gregor's) about the male sinners and it's still unsatisfying when Ishmael also got a really deep character dive instead of just 'I HAVE NO PROBLEMS WHATSOEVER LET'S RUN AWAY FROM THE BOSS BATTLE'. Also, I ADORED Canto V and I now absolutely understand all the hardcore Kromer/Yuri/Dongrang/Samjo fans because omg Ahab. She is SUCH a fun character and I really hope the inevitable Ahab Ishmael ID will give us more lore on her backstory with the Pallid Whale. Also, despite managing to make it through the abnos and the first bossfight pre-nerf, the post-nerf final boss was by far the toughest for me, significantly more than Dongrang or Dongbaek.
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Dec 2, 2023 19:46
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On an unrelated note what 2* IDs do we have that are actually decent for MD Hard? I've basically always been using LC Remnant Faust and Seven Ryoshu due to their absurd S3s, Faust's in particular. (Also LCR just fuels Fluid Sac with ease)
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Dec 2, 2023 19:58
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LCRFaust and KK HongLu are the only two 00's whom I don't mind bringing all the way through MD2H. LCRFaust is an amazing ID that's better then most 000's, and KKlu doesn't clash great but is fast and has his skill 2, which is hitting for 120 on an unblocked attack. Most 00's just don't have the clash power to stand up on the later floors though, so they die without babysitting. Edit: Forgot about Goutis, who's a great clasher once her sanity is up, and has a really good passive if you bench her. Onehandclapping fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Dec 2, 2023 |
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Dec 2, 2023 20:18
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PlasticAutomaton posted:On an unrelated note what 2* IDs do we have that are actually decent for MD Hard? I've basically always been using LC Remnant Faust and Seven Ryoshu due to their absurd S3s, Faust's in particular. (Also LCR just fuels Fluid Sac with ease) Those are really the two standouts IMO, they have enough clash power in S2/S3 to hang in there on the deeper floors without too much need for emergency EGO usage. Most of the other good 00s run into issues with their numbers falling short of the break points in MD2H.
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Dec 2, 2023 20:32
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t3isukone posted:Huge agree here with the addendum that IMO Rodya's is by far the weakest. Gregor has most of his being setup, but the whole dungeon is an exploration of him with the interactions with the G-Corp soldiers and the trip into his memories is great.
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Dec 2, 2023 20:47
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PlasticAutomaton posted:On an unrelated note what 2* IDs do we have that are actually decent for MD Hard? I've basically always been using LC Remnant Faust and Seven Ryoshu due to their absurd S3s, Faust's in particular. (Also LCR just fuels Fluid Sac with ease) All three Shi units are solid clashers and do work in MD2H to the very end, with Shi Don clashes being good even without the 50% HP gimmick (she has 10,16, 25 on her skills). Shi Ishmael is absolute monster under 50% HP, with to her S2 having 21 clash power, while also doing huge damage due to 4 coins and each coin giving 1 Poise Potency and Count so she can naturally maintain Poise stack and do crits the whole battle. Shi Heathcliff sucks until Uptie 4, at which point he has decent clashing under 50% health and does pretty funny damage (often 200+) with his S3 due to 2 Attack Weight and it doing 100% more damage at the cost of HP. The 50% HP gimmick seems daunting, but outside of the initial battle where you have to get them to 50% HP while keeping them from dying and still winning the battle, maintaining them there is honestly pretty easy and non-annoying. Outside of them and LC Faust, Seven Ryoshu and G Outis that were already mentioned, 00 Liu IDs are....decentish if you are going for Burn team, (00 Liu Hong Lu can keep up almost until the end when you stack Burn, Gregor and Meursalt....less so) and the new Middle Mersault has OK clashing (especially if you have his Regret EGO), amazing support for IDs with big Envy nukes (which includes W Don, W Ryoshu and R Heathcliff) and a pretty great passive if you have several IDs from the same unit (like Liu, or W Corp). There are also W Faust, who is OK in Charge Teams when you have her at Uptie 4 and W Hong Lu, who is OK in Charge Teams even without Uptie 4. That's about it, I think? If you want a TL:DR for the best 00 IDs for MD2H, it's L Faust, G Outis, Seven Ryoshu and Shi Ishamel in no particular order.
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Dec 2, 2023 21:08
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PlasticAutomaton posted:On an unrelated note what 2* IDs do we have that are actually decent for MD Hard? I've basically always been using LC Remnant Faust and Seven Ryoshu due to their absurd S3s, Faust's in particular. (Also LCR just fuels Fluid Sac with ease) Honestly these days if just throw in whoever fits overall team themes I'm going with. Rupture? Bring 7 Heath, LCCB Ish, Talisman Sinclair Charge? Throw in W Hong Lu and Faust Wacky Middle Envy A-Res shenanigans? Whoever has decent Envy EGOs and/or skills (hi LC Remnant Faust and 7 Heathcliff)
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Dec 2, 2023 22:26
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Alright, so, Little Sister Don's story was both hilarious and really creepy. I could totally imagine her beating someone to death, thinking about parties all the while.
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Dec 3, 2023 03:52
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PlasticAutomaton posted:On an unrelated note what 2* IDs do we have that are actually decent for MD Hard? I've basically always been using LC Remnant Faust and Seven Ryoshu due to their absurd S3s, Faust's in particular. (Also LCR just fuels Fluid Sac with ease) Any of Hong Lu's 00s are okay because he isn't allowed to have a bad ID ever, though they'll probably need to be replaced after floor 2 e: G Outis also isn't bad if she lives long enough to get her sanity up Yinlock fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Dec 3, 2023 |
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Dec 3, 2023 04:06
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KobunFan posted:Alright, so, Little Sister Don's story was both hilarious and really creepy. I could totally imagine her beating someone to death, thinking about parties all the while. Her mileage may vary.
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Dec 3, 2023 06:34
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t3isukone posted:Huge agree here with the addendum that IMO Rodya's is by far the weakest. Gregor has most of his being setup, but the whole dungeon is an exploration of him with the interactions with the G-Corp soldiers and the trip into his memories is great.
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Dec 3, 2023 10:34
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It's funny that despite Sonya calling Rodya out on wanting to stand out and feel special and important, girl is like deeply dedicated to fading into the background as the cool quirky big sis. The whole argument Sonya and Rodya had was deeply fascinating to me* because despite the fact that they still care about each other (Sonya gives Rodya the Bough after he can't recruit her, Rodya calls Sonya a close friend after all that poo poo, Sonya has clearly been thinking about her a lot and really wanted to see if she had the mark), they're kind of a trash fire, and I feel like a big part of that is they're projecting on each other the person they knew when they were both younger and both of them have changed a lot. Plus, there's so much trauma wrapped up in it they're also being unfair to each other. But yeah, if his barb that Rodya just wanted to feel special and stand out was ever true, it's not true anymore. She's flashy, but in a way that deflects. * That single conversation is the best part of Canto II to me and the part that has the most depth imo. PetraCore fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Dec 3, 2023 |
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Dec 3, 2023 17:04
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PetraCore posted:It's funny that despite Sonya calling Rodya out on wanting to stand out and feel special and important, girl is like deeply dedicated to fading into the background as the cool quirky big sis. The whole argument Sonya and Rodya had was deeply fascinating to me* because despite the fact that they still care about each other (Sonya gives Rodya the Bough after he can't recruit her, Rodya calls Sonya a close friend after all that poo poo, Sonya has clearly been thinking about her a lot and really wanted to see if she had the mark), they're kind of a trash fire, and I feel like a big part of that is they're projecting on each other the person they knew when they were both younger and both of them have changed a lot. Plus, there's so much trauma wrapped up in it they're also being unfair to each other. Dunno about Rodion but I do think Sonya is projecting super hard(Rodion consistently breaks the cool sis mask when it comes to issues of starvation and poverty so I don't think it comes down to her wanting to feel special. All of Sonya's talk about how only the enlightened can lead or whatever sure as hell seems like that) They don't seem to be on good terms at all though. Sonya seems okay with Rodion but that feeling does not seem mutual, the crux of Canto 2 was that their viewpoints are ultimately impossible to reconcile because Sonya is concerned with accuring political power for some nebulous future goal(which by sheer coincedence ends up with Sonya himself being extremely comfortable) while Rodion is concerned about the people who are starving to death. e: Legend of Ruina posted:Honestly in retrospect the funniest bit for Rodya’s dungeon and chapter is we didn’t even get any IDs linked to her in particular. On the plus side, now we can traumatize her with Middle IDs, but it took far too long. Yeah the most we get is Rime Shank which notably Rodion doesn't even change outfits for. tbf it does kinda tell the start of a story with What Is Cast representing Rodion's "crime" that brought the Head down on the slums and Rime Shank representing her distancing herself emotionally to deal with the guilt from that Yinlock fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Dec 3, 2023 |
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Dec 3, 2023 21:23
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GilliamYaeger posted:Faust as an individual may or may not have that clout, but Faust as an extension or representative of Limbus Company definitely does. She was the one who both recruited all the Sinners and led LCA while she recruited Vergil. She's not just a random nobody, she's got some kind of influence. She might even secretly be the owner of Limbus Company. I don't think she's the owner, her intro paragraph from the company is framed as them not really knowing what to do with her and touches on her arrogance which Faust would never do. if it was written by Faust it would be a 6 page treatise about how smart Faust is Yinlock fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Dec 3, 2023 |
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Dec 3, 2023 21:56
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Yinlock posted:I don't think she's the owner, her intro paragraph from the company is framed as them not really knowing what to do with her and touches on her arrogance which Faust would never do. Faust is absolutely the one most in the know about LC's goals still. But given the literary reference is it possible that we're missing the forest for the trees, and the real Mephistopheles is not the bus, but the bigwigs of LCA? Also Shower thought. We know in retrospective Ishmael was using Queelaag's name back in the early Canto because she used to be a Middle member in hopes it would give clout, but why when she was a "discharged" member who had to cut her tattoos and have brain surgery? Was it a sign of her encroaching madness, using a loved one as a tool for her objective? Was she hoping the Middle is insane enough that knowing a former member does give you some leeway? ALSO I made some surface level reading on Moby Dick's stuff (not American so wasn't required reading) and I was surprised IshmaelxQueelaag is apparently still a valid reading, and gay.
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Dec 3, 2023 22:16
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GiantRockFromSpace posted:Faust is absolutely the one most in the know about LC's goals still. But given the literary reference is it possible that we're missing the forest for the trees, and the real Mephistopheles is not the bus, but the bigwigs of LCA? Re-read the scene, Ishmael immediately explains that she didn't name drop Queequeg (not the Dark Souls boss) to get past the bouncer, but to bait out info on where the boss is. Queequeg is such a big deal the Boss would probably give them their personal attention, and from there it's likely the bouncer would spill that either the boss was here, or somewhere else.
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Dec 3, 2023 22:37
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GiantRockFromSpace posted:Faust is absolutely the one most in the know about LC's goals still. But given the literary reference is it possible that we're missing the forest for the trees, and the real Mephistopheles is not the bus, but the bigwigs of LCA? Could be that they're looking for information about Queequeg, or perhaps the Twinhook Pirates don't know a lot about the situation - and they did want her as a Big Sister. Not sure who this Queelaag person is?
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Dec 3, 2023 22:38
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fcuk.
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Dec 3, 2023 22:52
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Yinlock posted:Dunno about Rodion but I do think Sonya is projecting super hard(Rodion consistently breaks the cool sis mask when it comes to issues of starvation and poverty so I don't think it comes down to her wanting to feel special. All of Sonya's talk about how only the enlightened can lead or whatever sure as hell seems like that) I don't see Sonya as a person that doesn't care about others, necessarily, but he's a long-term, big picture thinker, and he's also fallible and arrogant and thinks the best way to obtain the future he's genuinely convinced will be the best for everyone is to be in charge, at least during the transition. It's sort of a recurring theme in Project Moon that ignoring little injustices and failures in terms of a nebulous bigger picture gives you a poisoned foundation, and I don't think it's different with Sonya, but it's also true that just rushing in impulsively is a flawed approach that risks worse consequences than before, as Rodya found out the hard way. Sonya justifies his past inaction and current 'little injustices' by blaming Rodya entirely for the massacre, but he ignores the fact that Rodya wouldn't have been driven to the point of axe murder if Sonya had taken her concerns about starvation seriously and turned his big organizational brain to figuring out a way to at least tide people over through the winter. I also find it interesting that when Rodya is punching back at Sonya, her retort is that if he's so smart and knows her so well he should have known what she's going to do and stopped her, because she would have listened to him if he'd told her the information she was missing. I think it says a lot about the state of their relationship that she's not focusing on the fact he was ignoring starving people because they'd already gone over that and she knows he wouldn't listen to her anyway, but she pushes back at the fact that he's not as in control and doesn't know as many things as he acts like he does. So yeah, there's a lot of things wrong with Sonya but in the end, Rodya is still worried about if he's gotten out okay. I'm interested to see where his plot goes, we know basically nothing about what he's up to, except that he's started using his group to gather resources by force 'for the greater good' and Rodya pretty rightfully points out that he's not even doing that with people who are hoarding money, which I think she'd be a lot more okay with given the pawnbroker she killed, and that he was willing to work with Hermann, which doesn't speak well for his morals, but he also gave the Bough to Rodya, which means whatever agenda he has isn't Hermann's but his own, but also he's confident enough that he can piss Hermann off and survive it. I think he probably does think he's working for the greater good, but also we all know that ain't going to work out like he wants. He's interesting! EDIT: Also I wasn't accusing Rodya of not caring when I said maybe she really did want to feel special in the past. There's nothing wrong with wanting to feel special, the thing that drove Rodya to tragic desperation wasn't the need to feel special but the fact that people she cared about were actively starving and one had already died because he tried to eat garbage. My point was more, Sonya seems to have a pretty rigid but shallow understanding of what it means to be community minded, with his emphasis on working with a group, for a group, as a member of that group, not going off on your own, and that disdain for individuality might cause him to interpret Rodya's arguments, disagreements, and eventual action in the frame of her acting out 'just to act out', and then tagging that with another trait he might have noticed in her to make it a nice, neat narrative that conveniently absolved him of all blame. This isn't just speculation on my part, he does it in front of our faces where he presents Rodya with a vision of a world where everyone is fed and comfortable and given a chance to thrive, and then interprets her rejecting joining him as her rejecting the possibility of that world because she doesn't want that world to begin with. When it's like... maybe she just doesn't trust you, dude, because she's seen the ways you're a lovely leader, and despite caring for you she knows you well enough to not jump back into following you on a glorious promise you're providing no detail of your path to reaching. None of this makes him a more likable person, but I do think it makes him more interesting. Dude's got his head up his rear end! Rodya's got a lot of flaws, sure, but in a lot of ways she's more practical and grounded than he is, and while she's not going to lead a Glorious Revolution I think she's got a lot better chance of making the world a better place even if it's in smaller, more personal ways. She's pretty consistently someone that tries to show support for other Sinners and reach out to them with distractions or with sympathy. PetraCore fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Dec 4, 2023 |
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Dec 4, 2023 01:22
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GiantRockFromSpace posted:Faust is absolutely the one most in the know about LC's goals still. But given the literary reference is it possible that we're missing the forest for the trees, and the real Mephistopheles is not the bus, but the bigwigs of LCA? It was nothing about clout like it was was explicitly shown in the flashbacks that despite everything she did the Middle still wanted Queequeg super dead and Ishmael knew this, but Ishmael also figured Queequeg died at sea and the Middle was not aware so her name dropping her meant the Middle thought they could get what they were looking for with 0 risk to Ishmael
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Dec 4, 2023 03:04
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