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Bodyholes posted:I am willing to entertain the argument that letting Trump win in 2016 had some positives. The left did gain some strength in Congress with the squad and justice dems and while Bernie didn't win in 2020, Biden has actually passed a decent chunk of Bernie's domestic platform. I just think that's too optimistic, bordering on Great Man. Trump didn't will the alt-right into being, and it wasn't bound to him until he did the impossible and toppled the Hildabeast. The far right had been building steam just from having a black man as president for eight years; Trump losing by the narrowest of margins would've sparked the stolen election narratives early in addition to her being the most hated woman in politics for decades, and that fire would been sustained for the next attempt...in 2020 as the pandemic rages and people are screaming about mask mandates and Applebee's being closed. 2000 is probably a better case, but I was 13 in 2000 and couldn't vote anyway, so if that was the inflection point, America's been a dead man walking for my entire adult life. Byzantine fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Dec 10, 2023 |
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Gripweed posted:And your position that Democrats aren’t Bad and don’t want to Hurt Muslims requires evidence. Do you have any sources supporting that? Democrats are not a monolith, believe it or not. Do you seriously think Omar is "Bad and wants to Hurt Muslims" to the point I have to provide evidence? The general publics majority sentiment is probably in favour of that, though. Also, losing the election over defecting votes due to Gaza is one thing, but you do realize its not actually a motivation if and of itself, from a purely practical selfish politician perspective, to change stances right? That would require the number of people they lost over the issue to be greater than the number of people they'd lose over switching stances on the issue, and I havent seen numbers that thats true anywhere in the US, it seems unlikely. There are at best seats where they can succeed despite it being tactically a bad decision. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Dec 10, 2023 |
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Dec 10, 2023 23:35
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e: eh posting annoyed, gl with the conversation all
Misunderstood fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Dec 10, 2023 |
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Dec 10, 2023 23:38
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mawarannahr posted:How does stopping funding lead to genocide? Without support, Russia eventually wins and ethnicly cleanses the country of "Ukrainians" because those are just brainwashed russians of course
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Dec 10, 2023 23:39
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mobby_6kl posted:Without support, Russia eventually wins and ethnicly cleanses the country of "Ukrainians" because those are just brainwashed russians of course And while it's not genocide let's not forget the increase attacks on Syrians and other nations when Trump became president.
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Dec 10, 2023 23:42
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Mooseontheloose posted:And while it's not genocide let's not forget the increase attacks on Syrians and other nations when Trump became president. The best Donald The Dove argument I encountered in personal circles was hilarious as hell in retrospect because it was based on the idea that Hillary's aggressive words about Russia (and Iran) would inevitably lead to global nuclear war.
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Dec 10, 2023 23:46
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Biden's position on Ukraine is kinda irrelevant because if he came out tomorrow and said he wants to withdraw all support from Ukraine, and told Putin to go hog wild, he'd still be 'better than Trump' and therefore you'd still vote for him. He could say that he had an epiphany and now will govern and appoint judges as though life begins at conception, and he'd still be better than Trump, and you'd still vote for him. In an election of Trump vs Trump-but-opposes-new-oil-drilling-leases, if you aren't vociferously campaigning for the latter, you also have a set of red lines you are not willing to cross, just as people can be unwilling to cross the supporting genocide red line. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 10, 2023 23:54
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theCalamity posted:I live in a red state. It doesn't matter. Where it does matter is a state like Michigan where Arab and Muslim American leaders are organizing to call for others to not vote for Biden because of his support of the genocide in Palestine. Are they selfish or childish? I mean, that's a way the hell more productive way to go about it than the nine hundred and fourteenth tedious internet argument about electoralism, even if they're notionally on the same topic. People organizing to protest and otherwise make their voices heard as pressure to dial back US support is a good thing. I remain unconvinced that "which option will lose me fewer votes that I need" is a calculation in our favor but publicly visible efforts will at least nudge that equation.
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Dec 11, 2023 00:04
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theCalamity posted:I live in a red state. It doesn't matter. Where it does matter is a state like Michigan where Arab and Muslim American leaders are organizing to call for others to not vote for Biden because of his support of the genocide in Palestine. Are they selfish or childish? I don't know the specifics of what you're talking about, but my first guess would be that the leaders of that campaign are Republican which would imply selfish at least. edit: the usual pattern is that hardly anyone actually protest votes even if they talked about it (see Sanders primary voters) and the leaders of protest vote campaigns are grifting James Garfield fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Dec 11, 2023 |
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Dec 11, 2023 00:08
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celadon posted:Biden's position on Ukraine is kinda irrelevant because if he came out tomorrow and said he wants to withdraw all support from Ukraine, and told Putin to go hog wild, he'd still be 'better than Trump' and therefore you'd still vote for him. He could say that he had an epiphany and now will govern and appoint judges as though life begins at conception, and he'd still be better than Trump, and you'd still vote for him. So you are basically trying to get us to argue that what if Joe Biden wasn't actually Joe Biden but a sleeper Republican Joe Biden we'd still vote for him and crow about how he is the less bad option?
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Dec 11, 2023 00:10
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James Garfield posted:I don't know the specifics of what you're talking about, but my first guess would be that the leaders of that campaign are Republican which would imply selfish at least. According to Al Jazeera, Muslim Americans don't expect to be treated better than Trump, but they feel that denying Biden their vote is their only means of shaping US policy https://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/video/biden-losing-support-muslim-arab-american-voters-michigan-105533564 And here's a 4-minute video of some activists explaining why they no longer support Biden
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Dec 11, 2023 00:30
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I think the poster that pointed out the discussion we're repeatedly having and failing to resolve involves assumptions about deontology vs. utilitarianism and we're definitely not having the discussion on a level that will allow it to be resolved was right on the money. There are deep philosophical principles involved here and people are arguing without establishing what those principles are. Not that that's unexpected, this is just a dumb dead comedy forum and this discourse has lots of pitfalls to fall into at the best of times when people are aware of them and aren't prone to assuming an opposing position is a sign of moral failing. I'm not a philosopher either and if we were at that level of discussion I doubt there's much I'd be able to contribute, and I think that goes for a lot of my fellow posting warriors here. Anyway, for my contribution to perpetuating this slap fight: my approach is to remember to not let "the perfect" be the enemy of "the good enough" and that sometimes the best you can do is "not going to make it worse". A lot of decisions in life can get framed as a false dichotomy, but the election of US president is not one of them in my opinion. There is no predictable scenario where the candidate elected is not either a Republican or a Democrat. Despite his many many faults, I do not think anyone here believes Biden is somehow worse than Trump as a whole so please correct me if I'm wrong. Not-voting or voting 3rd party will not change that either Biden or Trump will be the next president, old-man-itis notwithstanding. In that way it really is the trolley problem, where you're either choosing to participate in complicity with some evil or choosing to not stop it. This is not a straightforward problem! Some people will find allowing five to die to be morally superior to personally choosing the death of one, and some will find that choice abhorrent. Sometimes there's no good option! The choices that will be offered to US citizens for President are only ever going to be bad ones, but there will always be a less bad one. In my moral calculus I try to save as many as I can, and then work furiously trying to change the rails before the next trolley comes through. I can sympathize with, even if I disagree, with an attitude that allows for multiple groups of five to get run over while trying to dismantle to trolley system. I do think it's an attitude that is prioritizing personal culpability over minimizing harm, but I can see the rationale. I can see how someone who views their choices as between "genocide" and "extra spicy genocide" would refuse to engage with the system. I think it's a misguided view of the choice involved, but it's not my place to tell them how they see things. However, I'm curious if the posters who consider a vote for Biden equivalent to a vote for genocide are as black and white about other things in their life as well. They're posting on the internet, so they're almost certainly personally using electronics that have been manufactured using slave labor, in conditions that induce workers to commit suicide, made from materials that were extracted via means disastrous to the local environment, possibly also using slave labor, then shipped using means that contribute to our pending environmental disaster powered by a resource that overwhelmingly benefits governments that are interested in committing their own human rights atrocities, including genocide! My argument being: just as there's no ethical consumption under capitalism, there's no ethical voting under a representative democracy. My ethos is to just do the best I can, do the least harm I can, and work to change the rules of the game to make things that little bit better in the future. When it comes to purchasing things I try to find more-ethical or less-immoral producers assuming it's not something I can do without, while advocating for laws, policies, and politicians who will take steps against malefactor manufacturers. For politicians, I keep trying to nudge the ship closest to my ethos to be closer to it. As a democracy we have the chance to influence the course of our polity, however diffuse or remote, so I keep pushing against that boulder even if it's seemingly futile. This seems consistent to me, so I'm curious how others deal with this issue
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Dec 11, 2023 00:32
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GlyphGryph posted:Democrats are not a monolith, believe it or not. Do you seriously think Omar is "Bad and wants to Hurt Muslims" to the point I have to provide evidence? Oh yeah there are definitely some Democratic politicians who aren't Bad and don't want to Hurt Muslims. Not a lot, but some. If that was what you meant then I agree. As to your second point, I do think this is a flaw in blue side thinking that's extremely pervasive. The idea that policies are simple switches you flip and you lose a certain percentage and you gain a certain percentage and those percentages are set, you can read an opinion poll today and know how the election would turn out. That's simply not true. The government, especially the president, has some power over public opinion. If Congressional Democrats pushed to end military aid, or even just make it conditional, that act alone would change people's opinions on the issue. Unquestioning unconditional military support to Israel is only a bedrock of American politics because everybody in politics agrees on it. If one side changed, that would make the issue a debate. And a lot of Americans who just generally support Israel because that's the position that has been fed to them through cultural osmosis would start to question that position. Mooseontheloose posted:So you are basically trying to get us to argue that what if Joe Biden wasn't actually Joe Biden but a sleeper Republican Joe Biden we'd still vote for him and crow about how he is the less bad option? Oh yeah, because that's what happened. Joe Biden made his bones opposing busing. Joe Biden whipped in favor of the Iraq War. Joe Biden kept Trump's concentration camps up and running. Joe Biden provides material support to Israel's genocide in Gaza. And you support him because he's better than Trump.
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Dec 11, 2023 00:33
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Mooseontheloose posted:So you are basically trying to get us to argue that what if Joe Biden wasn't actually Joe Biden but a sleeper Republican Joe Biden we'd still vote for him and crow about how he is the less bad option? No, the position "It is morally necessary to vote for anyone who is better than Donald Trump for President, as that will lessen total harm" fundamentally means you'd vote for Mitt Romney if he was the Democratic candidate for president. And if you wouldn't do so, that means you do have red lines you would not cross. And then it becomes a discussion about whether certain red lines are more justifiable than others, which at least has the potential of being interesting or allowing for people to learn or explain why they are engaging with politics.
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Dec 11, 2023 00:34
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DarkHorse posted:[Excellent Words] Thank you for saying what I've been trying to say, in a nicer and more fully-explored way. I'll be honest, I'm terrified of the idea of another Trump administration, since I'm poor and on disability.
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Dec 11, 2023 00:40
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Google Jeb Bush posted:I mean, that's a way the hell more productive way to go about it than the nine hundred and fourteenth tedious internet argument about electoralism, even if they're notionally on the same topic. People organizing to protest and otherwise make their voices heard as pressure to dial back US support is a good thing. You're the moderator. You're the one responsible for iteration 914 of "arguments that are in effect contraptions specifically designed to make dialogue and deliberation impossible." celadon posted:No, the position "It is morally necessary to vote for anyone who is better than Donald Trump for President, as that will lessen total harm" fundamentally means you'd vote for Mitt Romney if he was the Democratic candidate for president. And if you wouldn't do so, that means you do have red lines you would not cross. And then it becomes a discussion about whether certain red lines are more justifiable than others, which at least has the potential of being interesting or allowing for people to learn or explain why they are engaging with politics. As GJB has noticed, this is a very old argument, and that is because the opposite shift is what actually occurs- whatever the candidates are, whatever the beliefs are, the claim will be that participation is still impermissible; the red line expands indefinitely, governed by "fighting" and "material." The point of the argument is to ruin discussion. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 00:46 on Dec 11, 2023 |
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Dec 11, 2023 00:42
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Gripweed, this is poster hat not mod hat, but I'd like you to post receipts on Biden "keeping Trump's concentration camps up and running". When people specifically try to get dunks about kids in cages (or when I personally feel like looking things up) I've been posting updates of ORR statistics, to a resounding chorus of crickets until the next time someone tries to land an own. Summary of last time: kids do not appear to be in cages, emergency influx camps are basically gone, it doesn't *seem* like they're just fiddling with labels, and placement times are... mediocre but improved. I've had more trouble finding recent cbp etc detention numbers and durations, so it's possible those still suck, but at this point I'm not willing to accept one liners and gut feelings. So if you please, what precisely are you referring to? Discendo Vox posted:You're the moderator. You're the one responsible for iteration 914 of "arguments that are in effect contraptions specifically designed to make dialogue and deliberation impossible." I'm bothering the other mods because it is traditional for us not to moderate an argument we are actively in
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Dec 11, 2023 00:49
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Electoralism keeps coming up because the left spent four years making zero-tolerance arguments against Trump voters, and can’t apply the same standards without a bunch of cognitive dissonance. Irredeemability for thee, not for me.
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Dec 11, 2023 00:51
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TheDisreputableDog posted:Electoralism keeps coming up because the left spent four years making zero-tolerance arguments against Trump voters, and can’t apply the same standards without a bunch of cognitive dissonance. Irredeemability for thee, not for me. I know a lot of things have come through here that make not a lot of sense, but this is an extra level above. What do you even mean and what's wrong with having a certified zero tolerance policy for trump voters? I an separate from them for real good reasons
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Dec 11, 2023 01:01
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Biden could put some conditions on aid to israel, and not repeat gratuitous propaganda like 40 decapitated babies. He went all in on israel unconditionally, so its really no surprise that a lot of muslim voters feel totally devalued by him and arent going to vote for him
OctaMurk fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Dec 11, 2023 |
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Dec 11, 2023 01:01
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TheDisreputableDog posted:Electoralism keeps coming up because the left spent four years making zero-tolerance arguments against Trump voters, and can’t apply the same standards without a bunch of cognitive dissonance. Irredeemability for thee, not for me. I’m too lazy to provide receipts for D&D specifically, but electoralism arguments in general have been around for as long as I can remember, which was the 2000 election. Definitely much longer than since 2020. So I expect the same is true for here too
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Dec 11, 2023 01:02
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Google Jeb Bush posted:Gripweed, this is poster hat not mod hat, but I'd like you to post receipts on Biden "keeping Trump's concentration camps up and running". When people specifically try to get dunks about kids in cages (or when I personally feel like looking things up) I've been posting updates of ORR statistics, to a resounding chorus of crickets until the next time someone tries to land an own. Summary of last time: kids do not appear to be in cages, emergency influx camps are basically gone, it doesn't *seem* like they're just fiddling with labels, and placement times are... mediocre but improved. In fairness I haven’t been paying much attention to the issue since it fell out of the news. If they have shut down the concentration camps, good for him. I’ll take it out of the list.
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Dec 11, 2023 01:02
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TheDisreputableDog posted:Electoralism keeps coming up because the left spent four years making zero-tolerance arguments against Trump voters, and can’t apply the same standards without a bunch of cognitive dissonance. Irredeemability for thee, not for me. What does this even mean? What single moral issue did people find too big of a hurdle to overcome to vote for Biden that they had to vote for? It has to be one that leftist posters in this thread would agree is a correct moral action if you're going to argue hypocrisy.
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Dec 11, 2023 01:04
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mawarannahr posted:How does stopping funding lead to genocide? Interesting tidbit.
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Dec 11, 2023 01:14
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A cruel irony to all this is that I feel like there's a distinct chance where in the scenario where Biden loses the election, it's not due to the people who won't for for him due to him aiding Israel, but rather due to people exposed to enough Right Wing Media radiation (even moderates secondhand) that think he's not doing enough to support Israel
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Dec 11, 2023 01:21
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I feel like multiple arguments are getting squished together here. Electoralism in general, accelerationism, and the morality of voting for Joe Biden in specific. So to be clear, I personally don't consider voting for Joe Biden to be a morally acceptable act, but I don't think voting in generals is useless. If it was, how could it be wrong to vote for Biden? On accelerationism, I certainly don't think it's a good or workable idea in general. But I do kinda think it applies to the Democratic party. They have become so ossified, and are such an obstacle to positive change, that only something approaching a McGovern style blowout would have any chance of making them change course
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Dec 11, 2023 01:22
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Digamma-F-Wau posted:A cruel irony to all this is that I feel like there's a distinct chance where in the scenario where Biden loses the election, it's not due to the people who won't for for him due to him aiding Israel, but rather due to people exposed to enough Right Wing Media radiation (even moderates secondhand) that think he's not doing enough to support Israel I am very much hoping that the good elements of the Biden admin contribute to ending the razing of Gaza sooner rather than later. I can certainly see a Bad Timeline where them doing so gets them blamed by some Americans for the continued existence of Hamas.  otoh that would mean there's most of a year between a ceasefire and the election, so American voter object permanence might save us
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Dec 11, 2023 01:34
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When McGovern got blown out, the Democrats became more conservative and centrist, not less, because they saw how much the conservative party had won and thought that's what they needed to do to win votes. It's literally what lead to the third way democrats like the Clintons.
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Dec 11, 2023 01:36
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Gripweed posted:
Yeah the mcgovern embarrassment that had them scrambling as hard as they could to reorient themselves as a center right party. Like you're talking about a worst case scenario for opposition to toxic conservatism
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Dec 11, 2023 01:42
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Ralepozozaxe posted:When McGovern got blown out, the Democrats became more conservative and centrist, not less, because they saw how much the conservative party had won and thought that's what they needed to do to win votes. It's literally what lead to the third way democrats like the Clintons. Conversely, the Sanders challenge in 2020 got him a seat at the table and there's a plausible argument (which I agree with) that a lot of the Biden administration's more boring good policies and good appointments (Deb Haaland! a native American running loving Interior!) came of that. Primary challenges good. too bad Dean Phillips is even worse on Israel and Marianne Williamson is the way she is oh well, there's always Shawn Fain 2028
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Dec 11, 2023 01:42
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Ralepozozaxe posted:When McGovern got blown out, the Democrats became more conservative and centrist, not less, because they saw how much the conservative party had won and thought that's what they needed to do to win votes. It's literally what lead to the third way democrats like the Clintons. Yeah but that was the past. Literally fifty years ago. I should have said, part of the blowout would have to involve a significant part of the leadership going too, because those dusty fuckers were alive for the McGovern loss and are still scarred by it, they still think the solution is to ratchet right. A crushing loss that demonstrates the current Democrat scheme isn't cutting it with Americans, and kicks out most of the people who were in office under Reagan, could create space for the party to change. Maybe even for the better. It might just be me being optimistic in thinking that there is a way for the Democratic party to get better. Because them being in power sure as hell doesn't do it, and them being in close contention doesn't do it either. Maybe if they had to wander in the woods for awhile and space was opened up for new blood in leadership, they could decide to do things differently.
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Dec 11, 2023 01:44
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I think we've missed talking about a far more important political issue: Vivek took a moment in this Twitter space to "drain the Heart of Lorkhan" on an open mic: https://twitter.com/Holden_Culotta/status/1733958535904399681 Edit: Gripweed posted:It might just be me being optimistic in thinking that there is a way for the Democratic party to get better. Because them being in power sure as hell doesn't do it, and them being in close contention doesn't do it either. Maybe if they had to wander in the woods for awhile and space was opened up for new blood in leadership, they could decide to do things differently. They did that. His name was Bill Clinton.
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Dec 11, 2023 01:45
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Agents are GO! posted:Vivek took a moment in this Twitter space to "drain the Heart of Lorkhan" on an open mic: I simultaneously hate and love this guy's accidental attachment to elder scrolls lore and every time he ends up in the news i want his rear end in a soul gem
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Dec 11, 2023 01:49
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Agents are GO! posted:I think we've missed talking about a far more important political issue: 
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Dec 11, 2023 01:50
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Eletriarnation posted:It feels like the lesser of two evils conversation is really deontology vs. utilitarianism, a dispute that we aren't arguing at the right level to resolve and would be very unlikely to resolve even if we were. All of this hypothesizing about how Joe Biden or the Democratic Party will act or not in response to your individual vote is silly - they won't notice or care about your individual vote, especially if you don't cast it at all. This is correct. Individual votes do not matter in an election. This is why it's important for individuals to organize into a large group that collectively agrees to to withhold their votes. Let's put it another way: if Biden wants to ensure his reelection, then he needs to force Israel into a ceasefire.
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Dec 11, 2023 01:50
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Agents are GO! posted:Thank you for saying what I've been trying to say, in a nicer and more fully-explored way. My girlfriend is trans and we're trying to find another country because I do think Trump's reelection is imminent. All the signs are there. I'm not interested in "finding out", unlike the death cult thread. Gripweed posted:Oh yeah, because that's what happened. Joe Biden made his bones opposing busing. Joe Biden whipped in favor of the Iraq War. Joe Biden kept Trump's concentration camps up and running. Joe Biden provides material support to Israel's genocide in Gaza. And you support him because he's better than Trump. I support him because he's made the biggest push for green energy and transit thus far, and I support not frying all humans to death. I suppose I also don't want to see several million americans rounded up into camps and deported, and I think the best gift we can give Israel is to turn the most powerful country on earth and its closest ally into a fascist dictatorship that will support their genocidal operations for the rest of our lives regardless of public opinion on the matter. I'm disgusted by Biden's position on Israel. It's a turd on what was otherwise a pretty decent presidency overall (I'm grading on a curve for this hellworld country). I can understand muslim americans not being able to vote for him. It's a tough sell. I'm glad the left is trying to pressure him and I hope they keep at it and somehow succeed. Ultimately it's not enough to change my decision. I live in a swing state and feel obligated to try to save as many lives as I think I can.
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Dec 11, 2023 01:55
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koolkal posted:Interesting tidbit. The actual transcript is here, with the relevant part below: www.whitehouse.gov posted:… He also contradicts himself as he previously said in July that Putin lost and there is no possibility of winning: www.whitehouse.gov posted:PRESIDENT BIDEN: First of all, no one can join NATO while the war — a war is going on, where a NATO nation is being attacked, because that guarantees that we’re in a war and we’re in a third world war. (aside - regarding the issue of NATO, Ukrainian politician said a few days ago that US State Department is shutting down any discussions about NATO)
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Dec 11, 2023 01:59
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TheDisreputableDog posted:Electoralism keeps coming up because the left spent four years making zero-tolerance arguments against Trump voters, and can’t apply the same standards without a bunch of cognitive dissonance. Irredeemability for thee, not for me. Trump voters are irredeemable because they did a bad thing for bad reasons and they're not sorry about it and they'll do it again
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Dec 11, 2023 02:04
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Asylum officers are good, immigration judges under and hired by a D administration are good-ish, more border officers are... well, I'm open to persuasion but it seems like a tolerable trade.
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Dec 11, 2023 02:08
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Google Jeb Bush posted:Asylum officers are good, immigration judges under and hired by a D administration are good-ish, more border officers are... well, I'm open to persuasion but it seems like a tolerable trade. I think if done the right way, the senate GOP will go for it, but the house is a whole other kettle of fish. https://twitter.com/DougKlain/status/1733878005137625174 doesnt help that there is gonna be a whole convention to push the GOP into the "let ukraine burn to the ground because Putin has created a chud utopia" is going to start tomarrow.
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Dec 11, 2023 02:11
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