MeinPanzer posted:

It's time for this thread's favourite kind of journalism: the "help, we make £80k a year but we're poor" article: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/mar/04/middle-class-workers-mortgages-bills-tax.

Hmm, computer, enhance.

Right, so that's about £2,300 of his £4,400 take home accounted for, leaving £2k for everything else. Computer, zoom in again.

MeinPanzer posted:

The kicker? They bought a £400k house, an electric SUV that must be £40k, regularly take expensive vacations--and do that all with a huge dose of financial help from their parents. Meanwhile my wife and I are doing just fine living in a house that costs less than half that amount, driving a used car that cost £4k, and taking modest vacations.

His Divine Shadow posted:

Hard to summon sympathy though, where I hang out I get exposed to a lot of the swedish suburban middle class person and I deeply loathe them and their well off (and wasteful) lives.

Tesseraction posted:

The Tories got what they wanted, the youth impoverished and in despair, and then they bitch about us not having kids.

smellmycheese posted:

quote:

Robert of St. Albans (died 1187)[1] was an English templar knight who converted to Islam from Christianity.[2] In 1187, he led an army for Saladin[3] against the Crusaders during the Battle of Hattin as well as the reconquest of Jerusalem,[4] which was at the time under the control of the Franks.[5]

Robert eventually married the niece of Saladin,[6] but was killed shortly after outside Jerusalem.[7]

Robert's conversion to Islam caused significant dismay among the Christians and sparked ill-will toward the Knights Templar in general.[8]

Scikar posted:

Yeah, the economic point is a valid one and not everyone in the article is necessarily an arsehole, but it's hard to be sympathetic towards people who share no sympathy themselves. Lowering taxes to rectify a cost of living crisis is straight up FYGM

Jaeluni Asjil posted:

From what I gather (ok from watching too much Blaze channel), the Knights Templar had a complicated and not altogether adversarial relationship with the Muslamics.

His Divine Shadow posted:

If I focus on a single example, take modern led lamps, studies show they cost on average around 1500€ to replace and last on average 15 years, that is 150€ per year if it lasts that long.

MeinPanzer posted:

Right, so that's about £2,300 of his £4,400 take home accounted for, leaving £2k for everything else. Computer, zoom in again.

Ah, there it is! No way we can buy, say, a used car instead of leasing! Lots of conspicuously unexplained gaps in these budgets where money just happens to disappear. Also, the commonly identified culprit? Those dang taxes being too high for us honest middle class earners!
...
The kicker? They bought a £400k house, an electric SUV that must be £40k, regularly take expensive vacations--and do that all with a huge dose of financial help from their parents.

Tesseraction posted:

The Tories got what they wanted, the youth impoverished and in despair, and then they bitch about us not having kids.

Guavanaut posted:

I forget who, but one of England's fash heroes got kicked out of Hungary for being associated with them, as a group too racist even for Hungarian politics.

quote:

Dowson relocated to Budapest, Hungary, and has been observed in several eastern European countries with his latest venture, Knights Templar International (KTI), along with the former BNP leader Nick Griffin and a Hungarian anti-abortion campaigner Imre Teglasy. Dowson's last sighting, according to the Daily Mirror, was on the Turkey–Bulgaria border with the KTI supplying equipment to a vigilante paramilitary group, the Shipka Bulgarian National Movement, to hunt down asylum seekers. Dowson was subsequently reported as having developed close links with the Russian extremist Aleksandr Dugin, with Dugin aiding Dowson in the establishment of a Belgrade office for his internet activity in support of the "alt-right".

xtothez posted:

The first advice people with this level of income get is to increase pension contributions where possible

xtothez posted:

"Vimes' LED headlights" doesn't have quite the same ring to it, sadly

The thing that immediately stood out to me here is that the guy is paying bare minimum into a pension and wants to pay less. The first advice people with this level of income get is to increase pension contributions where possible, as it's <=50p per £1 in your pocket now versus >= 80p towards retirement. With large enough contributions he could even be claiming child benefit for those two kids to offset the lower take-home figure, while paying substantially less of his gross income to tax.

However spunking between £1k and £2k on a car lease is obviously more important.

Bozza posted:

this is extremely dumb and short-sighted

if people with "a lot" of money aren't spending it because their bills have gone up, that is a symptom of an economy in collapse. every pub, restaurant, venue, coffee shop, local shop and indy retailer pretty much relies entirely on discretionary spend by people with "excess" money so if people who traditionally were those people are now not those people we are going to see vast swathes of british economic life shuttered

the article isn't "woe is me, I can't afford private school fees" it's "I pay all my bills but they have all gone up so substantially that I no longer have money to spend on other things" which is terrible for everyone. it's easy to laugh but GDP line will go up as asset prices rise and nobody will care that the very essence of society has been crushed

yeah they could save a bunch of money to get a cheaper car but they didn't, they don't have spare cash and now your local is closed down because nobody has any money. it's a symptom of a society with deep sickness in its soul which is caused by landlordism, multi-millionaires and billionaires, not by some software engineer on £75k

blaming taxes is also dumb but we need to be taxing assets to the same level if not more so than actual gainful employment

Sir Sidney Poitier posted:

When do they get this advice, and from whom?

There's a lot of animosity being wasted on higher paid people when it could be directed towards the tories who got us into this mess. That said, high paid folks quoted should just shut up moaning, it's not a good look.

Guavanaut posted:

Those are sweater puppies, I've never heard it the other way around. Although in the theme of the above, it's possible that we're both some kind of deviated prevert

xtothez posted:

"Vimes' LED headlights" doesn't have quite the same ring to it, sadly

Bozza posted:

Stuff

Bozza posted:

this is extremely dumb and short-sighted

if people with "a lot" of money aren't spending it because their bills have gone up, that is a symptom of an economy in collapse. every pub, restaurant, venue, coffee shop, local shop and indy retailer pretty much relies entirely on discretionary spend by people with "excess" money so if people who traditionally were those people are now not those people we are going to see vast swathes of british economic life shuttered

the article isn't "woe is me, I can't afford private school fees" it's "I pay all my bills but they have all gone up so substantially that I no longer have money to spend on other things" which is terrible for everyone. it's easy to laugh but GDP line will go up as asset prices rise and nobody will care that the very essence of society has been crushed

yeah they could save a bunch of money to get a cheaper car but they didn't, they don't have spare cash and now your local is closed down because nobody has any money. it's a symptom of a society with deep sickness in its soul which is caused by landlordism, multi-millionaires and billionaires, not by some software engineer on £75k

blaming taxes is also dumb but we need to be taxing assets to the same level if not more so than actual gainful employment

Scikar posted:

Yeah, the economic point is a valid one and not everyone in the article is necessarily an arsehole, but it's hard to be sympathetic towards people who share no sympathy themselves.

Tesseraction posted:

I guess the thing that surprises me is that on those salaries I'd expect them to be doing better. I'm on less and not having similar issues, but then I've foregone the idea of home ownership or kids in the near term (if at all), so I guess it's more that the aspiration of a house and kids is unaffordable now, and yeah pretty much.

Zalakwe posted:

Owning a house is bizarrely often not as expensive as renting provided you can afford the deposit in an area you would like to have a house. I have a dream that if I ever win the lottery I am just going to provide houses outright then rent them cheaply, give one away to the renters as soon as I have the money to buy another saved up and so on

Guavanaut posted:

It might be nice for the press to talk to the staff at the pubs and restaurants and cafes who are complaining that they just had their worst winter season on record and aren't getting any bonuses rather than the temporarily embarrassed discretionary spend people.

domhal posted:

Yes. But the Guardian knows where it's bread is buttered, and it's not at those places.

His Divine Shadow posted:

Hard to summon sympathy though, where I hang out I get exposed to a lot of the swedish suburban middle class person and I deeply loathe them and their well off (and wasteful) lives.

Sir Sidney Poitier posted:

When do they get this advice, and from whom?

There's a lot of animosity being wasted on higher paid people when it could be directed towards the tories who got us into this mess. That said, high paid folks quoted should just shut up moaning, it's not a good look.

Bozza posted:

this is extremely dumb and short-sighted

if people with "a lot" of money aren't spending it because their bills have gone up, that is a symptom of an economy in collapse. every pub, restaurant, venue, coffee shop, local shop and indy retailer pretty much relies entirely on discretionary spend by people with "excess" money so if people who traditionally were those people are now not those people we are going to see vast swathes of british economic life shuttered

the article isn't "woe is me, I can't afford private school fees" it's "I pay all my bills but they have all gone up so substantially that I no longer have money to spend on other things" which is terrible for everyone. it's easy to laugh but GDP line will go up as asset prices rise and nobody will care that the very essence of society has been crushed

yeah they could save a bunch of money to get a cheaper car but they didn't, they don't have spare cash and now your local is closed down because nobody has any money. it's a symptom of a society with deep sickness in its soul which is caused by landlordism, multi-millionaires and billionaires, not by some software engineer on £75k

blaming taxes is also dumb but we need to be taxing assets to the same level if not more so than actual gainful employment

forkboy84 posted:

Are you sure it isn't the Swedish you hate & not the middle class?

His Divine Shadow posted:

If I focus on a single example, take modern led lamps, studies show they cost on average around 1500€ to replace and last on average 15 years, that is 150€ per year if it lasts that long. I pointed this out and someone countered with that most people would be new owners so it doesn't matter (yeah gently caress 2nd or 3rd hand owners) and if it broke they would have insurance replace it so increased costs on lamp replacement doesn't really matter. But you think the insurance companies will just take that lying down? They will get that money back by increasing rates. Which affects even you with a very old car using halogen bulbs you can replace at home for a few euros / pounds.