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How prevalent would violence be in an average samurai's life through the eras? Would it be possible to be the lord of some nowhere place and be professionally trained in Violence but never get into a scrap? Or was it basically a given that if you were born into a samurai family you were definitely gonna have to kill a guy at some point. I recognise that's a hugely broad question and the answer would vary enormously depending on where and when we're talking
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Apr 17, 2024 21:35
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Barry Foster posted:How prevalent would violence be in an average samurai's life through the eras? Would it be possible to be the lord of some nowhere place and be professionally trained in Violence but never get into a scrap? Or was it basically a given that if you were born into a samurai family you were definitely gonna have to kill a guy at some point. I believe many samurai just became bureaucrats after the Sengoku-era civil war was over and possibly never had to get into a fight. That is, until some lowly peasant disrespected him somehow. Negostrike fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Apr 17, 2024 |
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Apr 17, 2024 21:41
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:i buy the shinobi being masked attackers - not wearing black, but beige that blends in more indoors - when the point is for them to be unidentified while doing their thing, wearing layers that are removable so they can blend in later plus eschewing armour to not make noise, for this kind of large coordinated group action this makes sense as opposed to the former idea of the ninja as the individual stealth infiltrator and espionage agent - these aren’t like the earlier episode where a deep cover agent in serving clothes was activated they should have all been dressed like this 
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Apr 17, 2024 21:47
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If ever a show earned a love story, it’s this one. drat.
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Apr 17, 2024 22:15
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Barry Foster posted:How prevalent would violence be in an average samurai's life through the eras? Would it be possible to be the lord of some nowhere place and be professionally trained in Violence but never get into a scrap? Or was it basically a given that if you were born into a samurai family you were definitely gonna have to kill a guy at some point. The idea of a hereditary warrior caste in Japanese society kind of went roughly hand-in-hand with an increase in violence in their history. In the earliest periods we have records for there was of course plenty of internal struggle for dominance within the fledgling Imperial court and as those in power attempted to expand their authority across all of the Home Islands, but a lot of these were fairly limited in scope by later standards. Around the 600s, the ruling class started to reform their military along Chinese models, coinciding with a dramatic passion for all things Chinese among the aristocracy, and these reforms coincided with a period of relative peace as most soldiers became peasant levies minus a dedicated group of professionals to train them in times of crisis. Resources were diverted to the arts, which is why we have so much poetry and painting from that era. A few hundred years later, internal unrest and rebellion against the Imperial court became more frequent, particularly as they neared total dominance of the main island of Honshu. The samurai class started expanding, and then the Imperial family started to seclude themselves, losing power to the landed nobility who began fighting among themselves more frequently and/or rebelling against the throne more often. By 1100 this culminated in the Genpei War, which led to the collapse of the Imperial family's power and the rise of the very first Shogunate. Prior to that time, the term was reserved as a temporary office at the Emperor's service, but this made it a hereditary military dictatorship for the first time. This was when the Samurai fully came into their own as a caste within the social heirarchy. Things got quiet for a few decades, then came the Mongolian invasions, and a second Shogunate dynasty. This was also the period when mass infantry started to come back into style, meaning larger-scale battles whenever battles did occur. There was a gradual escalation of internal violent disputes as the second Shogunate's power decayed over about 200 years, and then came THE SENGOKU JIDAI, everyone's favorite Game of Thrones Super War that lasted a full century. That era's ending coincides roughly with the events of this show, after which there was a period of fairly solid peace for another three centuries until the Meiji Restoration, which ended the Samurai as a legitimate warrior caste once and for all. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk. Sanguinia fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Apr 17, 2024 |
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Apr 17, 2024 22:38
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I remember reading some random thing years ago that said that Katanas were kept sheathed as much as possible and only used when necessary, with a samurai often using other makeshift weapons instead if possible, because of the low quality of the steel in Japan. The swords were easily damaged and not easy or cheap to repair, especially for the lower ranked samurai. I have no idea where I even heard that or how true it is, but now seems like as good of a time as any to find out.
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Apr 17, 2024 22:44
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Beefeater1980 posted:If ever a show earned a love story, it’s this one. drat. Yeah it really shows how effective it can be to have it play out over a long period of time with mostly small gestures and brief moments and having actors with good chemistry.
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Apr 17, 2024 22:52
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So was there any deeper significance of Mariko's poem about the leafless branch? Seems like the kind of thing that would be Weighted With Import for those well-versed in the culture, more than just "good, but a little bleak" Also lol autocorrect keeps trying to make me write Mario
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Apr 17, 2024 22:53
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My own take on the leafless branch is that she's talking about her family line. Though she has a son, he's a Toda, so she's just been hanging there her whole life, a branch that can't bear any fruit for her father's family.
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Apr 17, 2024 22:57
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Last Mariko, died as she lived, being a passive aggressive queen
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Apr 17, 2024 23:08
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It's a subtle plea to Ochiba, whose name means Fallen Leaves.
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Apr 17, 2024 23:12
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I thought it was directed at Ochiba who seemed quite distressed upon hearing it. Ochiba (落葉) means fallen leaves, by the way. edit: ^beaten
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Apr 17, 2024 23:12
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Phy posted:So was there any deeper significance of Mariko's poem about the leafless branch? Seems like the kind of thing that would be Weighted With Import for those well-versed in the culture, more than just "good, but a little bleak" While the snow remains Veiled in the haze of cold evening A leafless branch Now I must make like a tree And leave
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Apr 17, 2024 23:16
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kiimo posted:While the snow remains 
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Apr 17, 2024 23:24
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it's a terrible start to a poem, as per the show's protagonist Yabushige
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Apr 17, 2024 23:33
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Phy posted:So was there any deeper significance of Mariko's poem about the leafless branch? Seems like the kind of thing that would be Weighted With Import for those well-versed in the culture, more than just "good, but a little bleak" You can take that line to mean anything from "I'm on a path that ends with my death and I'm okay with that" to "I want you all thinking about how hopeless your own positions are" to "Toranaga is not as beaten as he looks". And she refuses to elaborate by declining to enter the poetry competition, meaning she won't supply any further lines. You've got to take that one and guess, and maybe what you hear her saying says more about you than it does her.
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Apr 18, 2024 00:05
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This episode was pure  The Show and it was great.(I also thought Yabu was letting Toranaga's men in for a hot second, mostly because I had no idea what Yabu's men looked like and assumed he was killing Ishido's men - as he'd switched to Ishido's side.)
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Apr 18, 2024 00:11
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I hope the cannons are OK 
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Apr 18, 2024 00:13
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Mauser posted:it's a terrible start to a poem, as per the show's protagonist Yabushige I would watch 5 seasons of Yabu in Korea and pre-Shogun.
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Apr 18, 2024 00:34
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kiimo posted:they should have all been dressed like this Actual subtitle from one of the flicks I mentioned way upthread: 
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Apr 18, 2024 01:05
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Sio posted:Ishido does have a peasant background in the show; not sure if that’s the case in the novel or not, or whether it matches his historical analogue. Yeah just saw him mention it in the show on the rewatch with wife
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Apr 18, 2024 01:16
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Blackthorne just kind of appears heavily constipated in every scene he's in, I think it's the combined effect of the stiff acting and the weird voice Cosmo is doing, he's absolutely the weak link in the cast. Not an easy role though.
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Apr 18, 2024 02:03
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Sio posted:Ishido does have a peasant background in the show; not sure if that’s the case in the novel or not, or whether it matches his historical analogue. I thought Mariko was obliquely referencing this when she said "I'm not a peasant to be trod upon"
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Apr 18, 2024 02:27
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Vampire Panties posted:I thought Mariko was obliquely referencing this when she said "I'm not a peasant to be trod upon" Oh she was directly referencing Ishido’s heritage. Even the late Taiko’s wife warned Ochida with her dying breath not to trust that ambitious commoner, he’s up to no good!
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Apr 18, 2024 05:50
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Aurubin posted:While in line for the "what a twist!" thing, I just think a Toranaga false flag has too much potential for failure. But who knows, maybe they'll sell it well if it's that. Who knows? Maybe it was just those drat bandits who have been ravaging the roads outside Osaka for a long time.
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Apr 18, 2024 07:46
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Rabelais D posted:Blackthorne just kind of appears heavily constipated in every scene he's in, I think it's the combined effect of the stiff acting and the weird voice Cosmo is doing, he's absolutely the weak link in the cast. Not an easy role though. I do still think this is a deliberate choice, and Jarvis is entertainingly and mostly very effectively playing up certain aspects in order to demonstrate how Blackthorne must come across to the rest of the characters, in constant violation of social etiquette: graceless and unable to remain still, blurting out his innermost emotions or leaving them instantly readable upon his shocked or sorrowful face, bellowing unnecessarily loudly or emphatically to make a point (while, say, Mariko can make the same point with a gentle 'So sorry, but...') I'm not sure I'm willing to stand up and wholeheartedly defend what appears to be his Ep 10 line reading of "Don't you understand? I came here to YOOOSE YOOOOOOOOU", though.
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Apr 18, 2024 07:56
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grobbo posted:I do still think this is a deliberate choice, and Jarvis is entertainingly and mostly very effectively playing up certain aspects in order to demonstrate how Blackthorne must come across to the rest of the characters, in constant violation of social etiquette: graceless and unable to remain still, blurting out his innermost emotions or leaving them instantly readable upon his shocked or sorrowful face, bellowing unnecessarily loudly or emphatically to make a point (while, say, Mariko can make the same point with a gentle 'So sorry, but...') That reminds me of one of my favourite moments this episode that got kinda overshadowed by the finale: Mariko telling Blackthorne that they should leave, her having a tearful final goodbye with Oshiba, and him just absolutely gracelessly STOMP STOMP STOMPing away. 
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Apr 18, 2024 08:39
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Loved him stopping in the background and looking back, like he was thinking,"...I thought you said we were leaving?"
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Apr 18, 2024 08:44
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Perestroika posted:That reminds me of one of my favourite moments this episode that got kinda overshadowed by the finale: Mariko telling Blackthorne that they should leave, her having a tearful final goodbye with Oshiba, and him just absolutely gracelessly STOMP STOMP STOMPing away. That was so good and somehow a perfect visual representation of 'I'm ready to leave the party but my wife keeps stopping to say goodbye to people'
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Apr 18, 2024 08:52
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The heir just wants to play in the dirt. Winking Blackthorne gets it. Season 2 will be a buddy comedy with the two of them. "Shogun - The Regent's Treat from Regent Street" Nice Tuckpointing! fucked around with this message at 11:15 on Apr 18, 2024 |
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Apr 18, 2024 11:13
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It amuses me that Blackthorne sounds like when Youtuber Chris Broad tries to do his "serious voice". Though he moved to Japan and married an attractive Canadian.
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Apr 18, 2024 11:13
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Panzeh posted:Blackthorne using that pistol like it's a glock but i'm down for that. Phy posted:Lessons for gun shooters about cover vs concealment should now until the end of time feature John Blackthorne blasting ninjas on the other side of the wall they killed his waifu, now he's going to kill them john blackthorne-wick
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Apr 18, 2024 12:23
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This show really should be called drip masters because the costumes in some of these scenes are unreal. Sometimes I get pulled out because I’m checking out Ishido’s patterns or whatever.
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Apr 18, 2024 13:40
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sonatinas posted:This show really should be called drip masters because the costumes in some of these scenes are unreal. Sometimes I get pulled out because I’m checking out Ishido’s patterns or whatever. Good excuse to repost the behind the scenes video about the costume design. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7k65stCQJE
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Apr 18, 2024 13:44
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sonatinas posted:This show really should be called drip masters because the costumes in some of these scenes are unreal. Sometimes I get pulled out because I’m checking out Ishido’s patterns or whatever. someone please give me a jacket based on yabu's crow feather armor.
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Apr 18, 2024 15:24
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Yngwie Mangosteen posted:I would watch 5 seasons of Yabu in Korea and pre-Shogun. I think the fun part of his character is that he's constantly out of his depth and we probably wouldn't get that if he were fighting battles or massacring civilians, which seems more like his speed
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Apr 18, 2024 15:52
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Yngwie Mangosteen posted:someone please give me a jacket based on yabu's crow feather armor. Yabu-patterned jackets would singlehandedly fund seasons 2 and 3 if they sold merch.
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Apr 18, 2024 15:56
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Mauser posted:I think the fun part of his character is that he's constantly out of his depth and we probably wouldn't get that if he were fighting battles or massacring civilians, which seems more like his speed I think Yabu is a competent and savvy operator- it's just that Toranaga is an apex predator and continually abuses his insight into Yabu's self-serving tendencies. Absent Toranaga, I think Yabu would be a formidable opponent for any other daimyo. He's both a true believer (exhibited by his acceptance of death on multiple occasions) and a pragmatist. A man with that combination of qualities can be dangerous.
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Apr 18, 2024 16:42
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Toranaga's ability to turn his loyal subjects dying into power moves is truly impressive. My gardener died? Frame him as a spy to protect the real spy. My son died? Declare period of mourning to buy time My most loyal lord died? Proves I am powerless and broken to my enemies My most loyal lord's daughter in law died? Weakens Ishido's prestige as he allowed a guest under his care to be killed Historically the Battle of Sekigahara has a large portion of the enemy army defect mid-battle which could be what he is playing for by being the exemplary honorable lord compared to a peasant killing guests
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Apr 18, 2024 18:07
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speaking of the dead gardener, are we going to see more of the actual spy? didnt toranaga say he was one of his most trusted samurai?
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Apr 18, 2024 18:29
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