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As a German who went to a Waldorfschule, the whole debate is kind of strange to me. For those who don't know, the Waldorfschule is a private school, organized after the teachings of Austrian esotericist and philosopher Rudolf Steiner. Today I have quite some criticisms about the whole movement around the work of Steiner, but one of the things that I really liked about the school, was the fact that there was almost no separating of the children. The already mentioned Gesamtschule is more like all three schools in the same building, but still with separate classes for the different levels of academic performance. It is easier to switch to an advanced class, because you don't have to switch schools, but it's still pretty far from the meaning of it's name (gesamt = whole, collective). In my school, I had every class with all the other children from my year, with exception of the languages from class 9 or 10 onwards. There were cases, where I was annoyed, because someone asked the teacher for an explanation, he had already given 3 times, which I had understood the first time. But then I saw children, who certainly would not made it as far as they got, had they been send to the Hauptschule. From my class (around 35 children) only 1 made a Hauptschulabschluss, the rest Realschule (after 12 years) or Abitur (after 13 years). I'm not going to pretend that the demographic composition of a typical Waldorf class is comparable to the demographic of a school with lots of children from low income or immigrant families. However there were enough children in my class with difficult backgrounds to see, that for every time the "better" student got "dragged down" the was also a time, when the "not so good" students were lifted up. Sometimes simply by being not written of and put away, but given the chance to go as far as they really could. One girl in my class was a foster child. She had drug problems, cut herself and once asked, whether people died, when the European continent and the American continent drifted apart. However, she worked through those issues and at the end made a very good Realschulabschluss and went on to successfully learn her dream job. I cant really imagine her doing that in the segregated schools. However, the most important thing to me is that when I started university, I noticed, that I had a radically different perspective at social rank then the other students. People couldn't imagine going to school with the lower classes and being "held back" by people not as awesome and gifted as them. Someone already mentioned, that the society in Germany is more a collection of parallel societies, who have often not much in common. I very much agree with that. I think the school system has a lot to do with that. What you learn in school is not only what's in the books, but school is a major social environment in the formative years of childhood and adolescence. I think it would do a lot of good for peoples perspective on society and their fellows citizens, when schools were not segregated by some mixture of classicism and economic interests. Apart from that, the German system isn't even good at separating people according to their ability. Economic and social background plays a mayor role in where you end up and people from the upper classes have a lot of possibilities when it comes to making sure their child gets Abitur.
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Oct 1, 2011 17:57
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The Flour Moth posted:Huh? Maybe I didn't understand you correctly, but there were no separations between kids until the Realschule ended. All kids went to the same classes until some of them graduated with Hauptschulabschluss. Then the same class continued for a few years (sans the kids who graduated of course) until more graduated with Realschulabschluss. After that, the classes were split up into courses for Abitur (Basic and advanced courses, every student had to choose four advanced courses/ Leistungskurse). What I wrote was based mainly on what a friend of mine told me, who went to a Gesamtschule in Schleswig Holstein. According to Wikipedia there is currently a separation for German, English and math in I and II courses in all Gesamtschulen. The individual schools can apparently split further courses into I and II. My description of the Gesamtschule was not correct then, but I think my other points still stand. Also not to forget, Gesamtschulen are currently only available in half of Germany, because the other states fear, that their precious education standards might suffer from a little competition.
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Oct 1, 2011 19:23
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Gold and a Pager posted:I was actually yelled at (well, in a passive aggresive way) by a woman for crossing the street today. We Germans love rules. We love reminding people of rules even more.
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Oct 1, 2011 22:31
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Orange Devil posted:I don't know how it is in Germany, but if I recall correctly, all teachers at all levels in Finland have to have a Masters degree in their field and a teaching degree. I bet that has a lot to do with their good results. In Germany you study "Lehramt" which is basically a "Masters light". Teachers study two fields, so they can teach multiple courses, but not as extensively as a normal Masters student, the reason being probably that they don't teach all that to children anyway. The "Lehramt" degree is usually seen as a 2nd class Masters and teachers in general are not that well respected and viewed as lazy. As far as I know in Finland you need a regular university degree, to become a teacher and a good one at that. However the profession is much more respected in society and paid very well. No wonder, the Finnish system gets better results... Ad Astra posted:Yeah, how did that happen? How did what happen? Me going to a Waldorfschule? Well my father was heavily dyslexic, something completely unknown back in the day, and my mother was the child of the only communist in the village. Both caught absolute hell from their teachers for these things and hated the regular schools subsequently. When the time came, they wanted a school for their children, that wouldn't subject them to such mistreatment for any reason and they picked the Waldorfschule. While this might seem paranoid and irrational, cousins of mine, who were at the age of my older sister, were hassled in school for being grandchildren of a communist. Ironically the Waldorfschule my sister made her Abitur at and which I went to for the first 5 classes was absolute crap and did probably more damage, then some teachers who were still sore about my grandpas political opinions (and the fact that the British made him the major of the village after WWII, because everybody else were Nazi sympathizers). Which smoothly transitions to the next point. No, not everything was well in Waldorfland and I would probably not send my children there, but thats getting awfully e/n. The fact is, that the school costing money doesn't prevent children with problems from joining. Actually it was apparent, that some children were sent there because the regular school system wouldn't have given them as much of a chance. I was never good at dancing my name and have forgotten all about that since then.
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Oct 2, 2011 10:11
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Ad Astra posted:No. I meant how did it happen that there were not many immigrants and pupils from low income homes. It is ridiculous to say there was no separation of children if the separation already happened before it started. You had a good experience there and that is nice. But you were sitting in an small ivory tower. To compare that to the other schools you would need to add 400 kids who don't get any help with their homework and 300 turks. Ah a rhetorical question. I think I acknowledged your objections for the most part already in my previous post. In my class were people who had no help with their homework or had otherwise difficult backgrounds. While Waldorfschools require their student's parents to pay, there is also a rule, that if they don't have the money to pay the full fee, they pay what they can. This can mean they pay nothing. So it's not a rich people only club. As long as there is no disproportional amount of people with immigration background, I don't doubt, that a more integrated school would help with problems like language barriers. However once you have classes full of Germans with Turkish ancestry, who can't speak German although their family lives here for several generations, such a system would of course not work. The current school system fails horribly at improving the situation as well, so it's not like we have already a solution to that problem (which is going to require a lot more then a changes to the school system if you ask me, but  ).
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Oct 2, 2011 13:10
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KingaSlipek posted:How do you reconcile your opinion with German Gymnasium students being the best worldwide according to PISA? And with German Gymnasium teachers of sciences also being among the best worldwide? What makes you think German teachers are not respected? Because their students don't like them? Most of what you quoted wasn't my opinion, but simple statements about facts or about what in my experience the general outlook is on things. Personally I don't consider teachers lazy in general, no matter where or what they teach. Is that a comparison of the best Finnish students with the best German students? Otherwise it's hardly a surprise, that the Gymnasium is better. I bet the other countries would get better results too, if the could throw all the not so great students out of the statistic. If looked at as a whole, Germany is still not in the top 10, and thats the 2009 study, where Germany had actually improved. For a system that was supposed to be naturally superior. it sure produced lovely results when people actually bothered to put it to the test. Besides a system, that only benefits a few on the top (not even the best in ability as much as in social rank as PISA shows) and discards the rest is amoral in my opinion.
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Oct 2, 2011 16:10
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KingaSlipek posted:You were talking about Finnish teachers, those that require a "true" master's degree and such. The point of the comparison between German Gymnasium students and Finnish students in general is, not only are these students the best, they also probably have the best education available to them (in some fields). We do have better teachers than Finland when adjusting for university education. My point of contention is "No wonder, the Finnish system gets better results". You didn't answer my question. Is that a comparison between the best Finnish and the best German students, or between all Finnish students and the best German students. In the later case that wouldn't really surprise me. How about some sources for that? I don't think, that the Finnish system has a better overall score then Germany, because their teachers have "real" Masters. A Finnish goon explained it that way, that because teachers have to earn a regular degree and in addition study teaching, it's actually harder to become a teacher in, say, maths then earning simply a master. However the pay is really good and teaching is a well recognized profession. Thereby you end up with people who are qualified and motivated to teach. Thats what I meant. "naturally superior" was an ironic stab, aimed at the fact, that our school system is touted as the best thing ever by virtue of it's design, when in reality it doesn't even make the top ten. Are you saying, the selection process is working well then? Why is there still such a strong correlation between education of the parents and education of the children? Is stupidity suddenly inheritable?
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Oct 2, 2011 18:11
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KingaSlipek posted:It is the latter case, and I found it surprising. Sure, on average, German students fare far worse than Finnish students, but I maintain that the German school system, if your premise is the early child-education as it is, is working extremely well. The problems that arise are all due to the nature of the education of the young child before he attends fifth grade. Sources? And what are you on about with the bold part? How are the years of integrated school loving the children up worse, then the segregated rest? KingaSlipek posted:I am saying that the selection with regards to skill is working surprisingly well (but not perfectly), but that selection with regards to social standing is not acceptable, of course. There are no two selection processes at work here! There is only one, and that's supposed to be about skill and potential. Since it clearly isn't for a large part, it's broken!
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Oct 3, 2011 14:17
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KingaSlipek posted:Why are you asking for sources now, when, according to you, it wouldn't surprise you? Everyone here is implicitly referring to the most recent source, namely the most recent PISA. Just read that more thoroughly and you see that Gymnasium students outperform the average Finnish and Korean student. It's not a big conspiracy secret, promise! Well I asked you, if the German Gymnasium students were significantly better, then the equivalent ratio of Finnish students. It may be a misunderstanding, but I thought, that you said that was the case. For that I would like sources. I don't need sources, to know, that the top tier of a segregated school system performs better, then the average of a integrated system. KingaSlipek posted:I have done the PISA actually, and as far as I remember, and I am sure one can check for them, it is being assessed how students go about solving problems effectively, do at comprehensive reading, and perform mathematical tasks that have practical relevance. The test is in parts a bit of an IQ test, and I don't think that anything after fourth grade is crucial in bringing about these skills in students. What happens is that those are strengthened or weakened, but the PISA doesn't really test for that. I have no problem getting that in my head. Germany is still under performing in areas like social mobility and there is still a strong correlation between the education of the parents and the education of their children in comparison to other countries. The reason for that is, that the selection process doesn't work as advertised. Otherwise you would see the similar social mobility figures as in other countries. The justification for the existence of the process is, that everybody gets the best education for his academic capabilities. If that would be the case, Germany should be a paragon of social mobility, or better educational mobility. Since Germany is far from that, the process is deeply flawed. How unjust and mean is it, to deny a child a better and more fulfilling career because of it's social background? Nobody thinks about that, when they are so very sorry for the smart kids from rich and educated families, who would have to deal with not so great children. So frankly I don't give poo poo if our best 30% are in average better then the mean of 100% from another country. Show me that our top 30% are better, then their top 30%, that would actually be meaningful. Otherwise it's not even "gently caress you, got mine!", but just bad statistics. Edit: So I see, it's bad statistics indeed 
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Oct 3, 2011 16:27
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Previously on GBS posted:Germany is pretty firmly in the middle in terms of social mobility actually. Not great, but better than many other countries (Italy, Spain, USA, UK). All right, my mistake. But wasn't there still quite a lot of indignant bitching from politicians when the news broke about our rank in social mobility? Besides, being better then those countries is not saying too much. Previously on GBS posted:No, that does not follow at all, I don't think anyone claims that the German system is as good as it gets. Thats not what I said. I was merely illustrating, what our system set out to achieve. Previously on GBS posted:That does not make any sense. Most states only make a recommendation about the type of school a child should attend and the parents are free to completely ignore it. Besides, as has been pointed out numerous times, there are many ways to qualify for university even if you don't initially attend gymnasium. Even if the whole system certainly is not fair and could stand improvement, there's no denying anybody anything. I'm talking about the overall effect of the system. When there are people assigned to the wrong school (which happens, as you wrote yourself), they are treated unjust. It doesn't matter if their teachers or parents are responsible, the system forces them to make a choice. If they wouldn't have to make that choice, they couldn't gently caress it up, by projection their prejudice or warped expectations on the child. It's also interesting, that you should bring up students, who are pressured into Gymnasum, because of their parents. Thats certainly no less damaging to the child, then being wrongfully railroaded into Hauptschule. I mean two of the people who shot up German schools were in that situation. Not that I'm saying that that was the sole and main reason, but it certainly didn't help.
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Oct 3, 2011 18:12
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KingaSlipek posted:You have not read any PISA document. If you had, you would stop spouting the "segregated school" nonsense. Our school system promises that those that attend Gymnasium are really the best we have to offer and that the lowest tier attends Hauptschule This is largely true, as evidenced by PISA. This is my entire point right there, and easy to check if you actually cared to read what PISA found out. I haven't stated anything beyond that that is in any opposition to what you have written. You are confusing this issue by strawmanning. You are saying that because some people, though qualified, don't get to go to a Gymnasium, the entire system is flawed. It is not perfect, nothing is. And, more importantly, no one claims it is. And there are many naturalized Germans, immigrant Germans and just plain Germans being treated unfairly. Of course that needs to be changed, but you are turning this into an issue of racism and class so as if the entire education system is built around "keeping it German". Just look at the DeusEx moron. You are caught up in assumptions about people not readily admitting that the system needs to undergo change. The only conclusion to draw is that our system is not inherently flawed, especially when it is up to teachers/parents to decide where their children go to school. Segregated means nothing but separated. And our students are separated, so it's a valid term. I have never said that our school system doesn't achieve the classification to some degree. What I'm calling into question is, that our system has an net advantage over a integrated system. I would however say, that the whole system is flawed. The teachers and parents are part of the system, if they fail in their role and the system isn't prepared to compensate, it fails too. As far as I'm concerned, this is a typical case of having a solution for a problem, that doesn't exist (a proud German tradition). You could convince me otherwise by showing, that our top students do significantly better, than the top in Finland. You haven't done that. Your whole point about the superiority of our segregated education system hinges on the idea, that separation in the three tiers allows us to get better educated top tier students than pretty much everybody else (correct me if I'm wrong). If that's not the case, why keep the system? By doing away with it, we would eliminate all the problems with social mobility and wrongly classified students at once. Even if it works as you say, this gain in performance for the top tier comes then at the price of social injustice. Our school system is not here to serve only a subgroup of society. I mean you don't even mention students from the Hauptschule or Realschule. Even after Germany stepped up its game after the first so called PISA "shock" we are still far behind Finland. If our best students are so awesome, that deficit will have to come from someone being significantly worse than the Finnish students. That someone would be the students of the Realschule and Hauptschule. So now matter how we look at it, someone's getting the short end of the stick here. Personally I would find that even more morally reprehensible, than a system, which under performs everywhere equally. How can you say, that making this issue of class is not justified? Look at that stuff about the changes in Hamburg. Look at the opponents of the integrated schools and tell me there are no class issues at work here. I'm not saying, that there is some conspiracy to keep poors and immigrants out of higher education, but if there is a clear correlation between the degrees and social standing and education of the parents, there is a problem and the education system is most likely part of it. Besides you have some nice strawmen yourself. I never said that the system was intentionally designed to have that effect, it just does because humans are selfish assholes. I would love to write more, but even after saving lots of time by typing less commas, I need to go to bed. Hope you find the comparison between the best Finnish and the best German students 
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Oct 3, 2011 23:27
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Einbauschrank posted:To really compare the school system we would have to compare Finnish pupils in the Finnish system and Finnish pupils in the German system. Or we would have to put German pupils in Finnish schools and see if they fare better. You would also have to equip the German schools with the same amount of money to compare the systems. It doesn't lead anywhere to compare different input and then claim the school is at fault. Finland is less urbanized (and therefore has less of an urban under-class) and had less immigrants with a poor educational background. Finland also spends per capita more money on their schools (but not on their teachers, they earn less than in Germany, but also have less pupils with behavioural problems so that their work is less annoying). To claim the different results are the result of integrated vs. differentiated school system is mainly the result of wanting the school system to be the reason rather than some kind of empirical analysis. I knew American Exceptionalism, but German Exceptionalism is something new. Don't let the fact that I'm railing against the segregation fool you into thinking, that that's my only beef with the system. In fact smaller classes and more money for education would be great.
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Oct 4, 2011 20:49
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Einbauschrank posted:I think "ceteris paribus" is more a matter of widely accepted methodological neatness rather than national idiosyncrasy. Comparing different systems under different circumstances and basing any conclusion on the fact that there is a difference in measured results is a rather strange approach to logic. Holy poo poo  How can you write those two paragraphs above each other?
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Oct 4, 2011 21:53
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The whole Dr. thesis thing was bad enough, but what reflected even worse on Guttenberg's character and abilities as a politician was, that he had neither the honesty to own up to his misdeeds, nor the foresight to see, that that might be the best course of action, since it was all bound to come out anyway. The funny thing is, if he had come out with the truth immediately, it would have done way less harm to his career. This way he just demonstrated how he is a lying, irrational and shortsighted piece of poo poo. Thats of course is not too different from the public image of most other politicians, so he will most likely have a great career on front of him.
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Nov 27, 2011 10:41
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Stuhlmajor posted:Holy gently caress dude, we get it, he's literally Hitler. Move on or something. He will be another Obama. A well spoken plutocratic hack with charisma and a silver tung.
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Nov 27, 2011 14:48
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Grendels Dad posted:If it were up to the retards, yes. It's not up to them, yet. What exactly are you objecting to? I wasn't talking about the BS the team party dreams up.
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Nov 27, 2011 19:37
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Haha I knew it! A friend of mine is of Persian descend and he is searched by customs every time he enters Bavaria by train over the inner German border. Yeah there are people from customs searching people who travel on national train routes.
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Apr 4, 2012 18:43
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az posted:And how do you mean, no sympthaty for those killed by the RAF, are you one of those that believe every German that died in the war had it coming? Because you know, the RAF especially targeted population centers on purpose and ignored the infrastructure leading east, in an effort to a) kill the people and undermine morale (which never works) and b) let them keep fighting the Soviets to reduce the amount of land they'd eventually get in a peace settlement. The RAF was run by literal warcriminals and committed so many horrible acts it is absolutely indefensible. I'd guess he is talking about the Rote Armee Fraktion e: and beaten...
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Nov 10, 2012 15:12
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Orange Devil posted:I said perception, as opposed to reality. As for the rest, that's all well and good, but other than going from poor to affluent doesn't really answer my question as to how a place that had apparently such support for far-left ideas is now the most conservative part of the country. Wasn't the heart of communistic revolution limited to Munich? I doubt that the farmers in the surrounding land had much to say about the whole thing. In fact as far as I remember, the Freikorps (basically fascist informal armies of WWI veterans) who retook the city were in parts recruited from rural Bavaria.
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Nov 11, 2012 19:50
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Not to forget, keeping Germans inside the country and shooting them as a last measure is a a proud an honored tradition in Germany.
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Oct 19, 2014 11:14
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Cingulate posted:And for something uplifting: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...e-a6946046.html He should've had a Phaeton a la Haider. Phaetons for all NPD members!
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Mar 24, 2016 22:01
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GaussianCopula posted:It's gonna be so funny when the AfD sits in the Bundestag because they are human waste The police in Hamburg: stuck between punk rock and a master race... In her defense, she thought he was a Wirtschaftseinwanderer in disguise.
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Sep 23, 2017 09:38
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Perestroika posted:Well this sure is an image: I'm the white "durch" on white ground.
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Oct 29, 2019 12:47
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ephex posted:Bin begeistert von der Anzahl von Blitzern in BaWü. Es gehört anscheinend zum guten Ton hier geblitzt zu werden. Not enough Abstandsblitzer tough. Nobody in BaWü has ever heard the word Sicherheitsabstand. Rush hour around Stuttgart was like lemmings but with Auffahrunfällen instead of cliffs.
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Jun 7, 2020 15:44
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Wow, aufwachen podcast and SA. This is not a good year for my media consumption.
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Jun 24, 2020 11:27
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KonvexKonkav posted:I looked a bit at that ladies twitter account and she does indeed give off a very powerful Karen/Karin/Sibylle energy, but the post that offended me the most was this one: I feel very individually trolled by this opinion.
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Jul 11, 2020 15:58
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Wolfgang "die rote Null" Scholz would make Schröder look like Rosa Luxemburg. The man who couldn't say how his Finanzpolitik differs from that of Wolfgang Schäuble's is truly a fitting choice for the modern sPD.
Plankalkuel fucked around with this message at 14:51 on Aug 10, 2020 |
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Aug 10, 2020 14:47
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My neighbor flies the flag of the former DDR. I'm living in Schleswig Holstein. I still don't know what to make of that.
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Sep 14, 2020 19:26
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The neighbourly relations have hardly recovered from incidents such as the "Zinkwanneneklat", the "Zaun wider Bebauungsverordnung" and their Untermieter's dogs chasing our cat. I'm not going to start a politically charged discussion. Given the current political climate, every Ossi who isn't flying the Reichskriegsflagge is a non-pressing problem in my book.
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Sep 15, 2020 11:39
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Randler posted:Man kann von Dresden halten was man will, aber Kochen und Braten können sie. 
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Sep 24, 2020 04:43
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cant cook creole bream posted:Kombinatorische Optimierung: Theorie und Algorithmen Would.
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Nov 4, 2020 12:26
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Libluini posted:I've posted pictures on our Discord because this is getting silly: My cat Amber somehow was playing with a third mouse in my apartment when I came back. Are you sure it's not the same mouse? Supposedly mice are pretty good at finding back to their old home. Maybe Amber and the mouse are friends and you are interrupting their play time  Also, if the mouse didn't bite the poo poo out of your fingers, it's your friend too. Speaking from experience.
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Mar 13, 2021 09:04
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Have b go to infinity. Mathematiker do it all the time 
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Mar 19, 2021 18:29
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I'm going where the emperor goes on foot. I have to for little king tigers.
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Apr 21, 2021 08:23
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My neighbor has upgraded his flag game from occasionally flying the flag of the DDR* (German Democratic Republic) to a flag that's half the American flag and half a big Q with the wwgowga phrase around it  In other news, I got my hands on a Spiel Station 5 mit Schraubenschlüssel und Klöter. So there's that  * I live in the former British occupied sector...
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Jul 18, 2021 07:19
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KonvexKonkav posted:Sure, you got a PS5, and next you're gonna tell us you live in Bielefeld No that would be silly. Everybody knows that Bielefeld doesn't exist.
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Jul 18, 2021 07:49
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Grouchio posted:Is Scholz any good? Hopefully he's less receptive of russian gas and greenwashing, for one. He had some involvement in the CumEx and Wirecard debacles which one could consider unbecoming for a minister if finance. His human rights record has some blemishes (see above). He survived the implosion of the SPD Spitze after the Entgleisung of the Scholz Zug just because his colleagues forgot wenn the Messerstecher Polonaise happened. Somewhat similar to the current situation actually. He somehow came out on top after the SPD tried some internal reforms which all favored some new and possibly even progressive(ish) people. If you want a competent, if somewhat openly corrupt cDU Kanzler he is pretty good I guess if you can overlook that he is in the wrong party.
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Sep 9, 2021 16:55
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niethan posted:Bad news bro Was darf Satire?
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Sep 18, 2021 10:48
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Lord Stimperor posted:Ich musste das googeln bevor ich sicher war dass es nicht wirklich pasierte 
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Sep 18, 2021 11:01
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Spin And Speed posted:
DUI should mean that his Zuverlässigkeit is gone and with that his Schießseisen. That's a big nono for gun ownership in Germany. In theory at last...
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Sep 22, 2021 07:52
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