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Qwijib0 posted:Looks like the norwegian price is ~36K USD for the base model, ~39K for the all-features model. It's listed with a 64kwh battery, but the US version is rated for "250 miles" at 117MPGe, which would require a 72kwh battery so I'm not sure those prices will directly translate. If they do, then it looks good. As far as I can tell the 325,000 krone price is for the base model, which is just under $40K USD. Finger Prince posted:You know, it's kind of weird how everyone seems to hang on every one of Musk's words. Like, I get there's a whole "what's crazy Elon going to say next?" thing, and he sure does like to talk, but I can't even name the CEO of most car companies, let alone get their shower thoughts live streamed into my existence 24/7. Are there a dozen publications queued up for a soundbite or juicy quote from Carlos Ghosn? Even during the heart of the diesel emissions scandal there was probably more Elon Musk content than anything from the VW CEO. well normally you don't want to run your mouth when you're under criminal investigation in the majority of the western world. plus the Volkswagen management structure has a very very strong supervisory board and a comparatively weak CEO position, versus Tesla is a company Forged By The Genius Of One Man who is still incredibly powerful within the company. The last car company CEO like him was probably Henry Ford, for better or worse. except henry ford knew how assembly lines work.
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Jul 18, 2018 12:59
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spandexcajun posted:I keep trying to parse this but it just does not make any sense to me. So many double negatives. tesla has the best charging infrastructure by far tesla's charging infrastructure is not remotely close to meeting the needs of a 2% market share in North America and therefore it is underwhelming from a growth-supportive perspective. it will be very capital intensive to build this out. these statements do not conflict i'm also not sure that you can say that the market thinks EVs are superior. The Model S is a best seller in its (tiny, dying) class, but uh the market has spoken pretty strongly about the Model X and it ain't too favorable. As a percentage of total new vehicle retail EVs are still below 1%. Some of this is supply constraints - not sure how you can think that it's all supply constraints. KYOON GRIFFEY JR fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Jul 18, 2018 |
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Jul 18, 2018 18:23
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bull3964 posted:That's not too say we have the infrastructure right now to allow all people to take long car drives in EVs, but vehicle range can be managed with a few edge cases that would be troublesome. The three challenges to me are long-range capacity (not enough infrastructure to allow people to take long cross country drives in EVs, and even if people don't actually do it they want to be able to do it), long-range route restrictiveness (right now there are limited ways to go A to B long range on the supercharger network), and local charging capacity - it is hard for urban apartment dwellers and the like, who are good EV candidates, to get charging installed. All these things are getting better, but they have to get a lot better a lot faster to support people's EV sales growth projections.
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Jul 18, 2018 18:32
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Ola posted:This is not a chicken and egg problem. Charging stations by private ventures other than Tesla and VW will lag EV adoption. Thankfully it's not like gas stations pre WW1, electricity is already well distributed. lack of infrastructure is a drag on adoption though
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Jul 18, 2018 18:55
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spandexcajun posted:Not really an issue for most new EVs with 200+ miles and DC charging. I know, I know "what about my regular 2000 mile road trips?" Sure, some people do this but I doubt it is an overwhelming majority. I know I have seen data / studies that show the average amount of mile driven daily in the US is like 30 miles per day. Will some small subset of drivers require fossil vehicles to travel long distances? Sure, but not enough to put a dent in widespread adaptation. it's not that anyone else has a better EV network, it's that even the best EV network still sucks compared to the current established industry standard of fossil fuel stations - did you read what i wrote? they're not conflicting statements at all. you don't have to be the best EV network, the target is ICE infrastructure and to get even close is very expensive. i think it'll happen but the amount of hand waving about "industry leading charging!" when the industry SUCKS rear end is ridiculous. ev evangelists have to figure out that yes, factually, very few people do 2,000 mile road trips, but a lot of people fantasize about the ability to do 2,000 mile road trips. cars are not rational purchases. the idea that yes 70% of Americans can do their commute in a leaf is certainly true, but the vast majority of Americans have so far decided that no they do not want to do their commute in a Leaf for a lot of reasons. model x market share is not very high. your theory is that EVs are vastly superior and beloved by the market other than price issues. if that were true the X would be leading its sales segment which it isn't. most of the other OEMs split large luxury SUV between multiple product lines. El Grillo posted:Any sources on your Model X sales statement? I can't find any decent info on its actual sales figures vs expected sales & production capacity. goodcarbadcar has sales information for everything don't know what you mean by "expected sales" but the Model X is certainly Tesla's highest margin product and if given the opportunity to sell X vs S vs 3, Tesla would produce more Xs.
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Jul 18, 2018 20:16
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Sagebrush posted:I dunno what the sales figures are but I see a lot of Models X in and around San Francisco. about 2k/mo and they're definitely concentrated in certain parts of the country - yours is one of them
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Jul 18, 2018 20:31
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I actually like EVs a lot and am a big fan of them. I also think that EVs are the future. I hope EV market share grows faster than projected and I hope Tesla can figure out how to continue making cars profitably and at a lower price point. I just find the continuous hype before results really annoying, and I think it prevents us from having a real conversation about why the EV market isn't growing faster! If you really believe that the only remaining challenges are manufacturing at scale we really don't have that much to talk about. I'm not saying that the Supercharger network doesn't work. The Supercharger network works adequately for a VIO of approximately 200,000 units against a total American VIO pop of 266 million registered cars. The SAAR for new vehicles is ~17 million these days. Tesla at 10k a week capacity will capture 3% market share against a current sub-1% market share. That is going to put a huge amount of pressure on that network and the problem with sales ramps is that they're cumulative and you'll need to build out progressively more infrastructure. Is this a solvable problem? Sure. Is it a solved problem? No. Tesla has a head start but that's not a guarantee when you look at future requirements against current capacity even for the industry leading charging network. Current capacity is a tiny tiny drop in the bucket compared to even next year's requirements. spandexcajun posted:Look, I provided sales data about the Model X vs the Porsche, I don't even know what other $120k super SUVs are out there but you can not say the Model X market share is not very high if it's within 20% of Porsche (I assume the leader) If it's #2 in the class and Tesla is planing on building 50k this year and that is not what would you consider "high market share", what the hell is? Like give an example of what bar they would need to clear? In my opinion the bar that has to be cleared for someone to definitively say that the market has spoken and prefers EVs categorically to ICE cars is for EVs to make up 50% or more of cars sold in a given segment. Right now, the market prefers ICE cars in every segment Tesla plays in. The idea that the market has spoken and inherently prefers EVs is absurd, which does not mean that EVs are not successful in certain segments!
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Jul 18, 2018 21:32
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I hate to break it to everyone but that lot full of cars looks mostly like export prep or delivery prep.
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Jul 19, 2018 22:31
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:Exactly. There are literally tens of thousands of cars in open lots stored exactly like this by other manufacturers. It would be dead easy for me to go to Minto and take out of context pictures of literally thousands of Toyotas just.... there. Like in theory Tesla is building on demand since they don't really have to have dealer inventory so I get why to some people this is shocking, but in practice that is very hard to do. But if the numbers are right at 29k, that's six weeks of production in transit which sounds high for a company that is primarily fulfilling domestic demand in the US.
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Jul 20, 2018 00:24
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Qwijib0 posted:That lot is also just across the street from a "431,000 square foot facility that was once utilized by Daimler-Chrysler as a distribution center." that Tesla has owned since 2014 and turned into a secondary manufacturing facility. It's also on a UP rail spur. tesla breaks people's brains it's ridiculous
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Jul 20, 2018 00:29
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Zerohedge wrote an article a few years back about how the global economy was doomed because they had discovered the vast Illuminati conspiracy of cars awaiting transsshipment and import at ports so safe to say they’re loving retards.
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Jul 20, 2018 12:06
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:This one that is linked in this HoaxSlayer article? That's the one. I went to one of the port facilities of German automaker and they had about 40,000 units stacked up from some... legal reasons in addition to the ordinary cars being processed. You could take some really good pictures there for an article about FAKE SALES.
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Jul 20, 2018 13:55
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FistEnergy posted:I didn't get the info from ZeroHedge. They just reported the independent investigatiors. I enjoy that within the same page of a thread I get called a Tesla Cultist and also an EV hater. I agree that Tesla's position is precarious but it has everything to do with their manufacturing issues and nothing at all to do with cars sitting around post production for very normal reasons. It's shocking to me how little people know about the business of making cars and what lovely stupid opinions they have on both sides of this weird, illogical battlefield. Ripoff posted:The most beautiful thing will be that, when Tesla dies, we’ll see some postmortem analyses showing that the company, all-in-all, wasn’t doing too bad but was killed by a bunch of nerds and stock brokers posting every single bit of bad news they could make up so they can short the stock or buy when it’s low. this is, charitably, very unlikely
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Jul 20, 2018 18:11
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here, which is weird because Tesla is clearly broke and operating like a circus if you know how to read a financial statement. I'll check back after the chips fall. I don't know how many signs of insolvency it takes for cultists to wake up but I guess we'll see. If Tesla doesn't secure new financing in the next couple of months they're finished. And it's looking more and more unlikely.
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The Sicilian posted:This false concern for advancing the ev industry or holding it back, etc, is really annoying. i mean, i don't want them to fail because their failure would set back the EV industry, and so i don't like seeing them do stupid stuff that has brought them in to a bad position. i don't see how that's false concern
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Jul 20, 2018 21:09
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The Sicilian posted:None of this seems like productive criticism, especially the crazed man posting zerohedge articles. no argument that that guy is completely out of his mind
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Jul 20, 2018 21:35
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162 in long, I had no idea it was that small with how people talk about it.
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Jul 21, 2018 12:53
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yeah this is a weird non story
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Jul 23, 2018 01:41
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Liquid Communism posted:Yeah, you're not wrong, but at the same time a single supercontainer ship burning bunker oil puts out the equivalent per year of 50 million cars' worth of pollution. There are 90,000 of them in operation, each running ~270 days per year. this is talking about sulfur and particulates rather than CO2
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Jul 23, 2018 14:09
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There's a bunch of stuff with Cummins Westports in garbage trucks since it's also suited to CNG. Doesn't solve the noise problem but it's cleaner. This is asinine since you can do like 90% of urban routes on batteries alone and that turbine adds a ton of weight and cost. There's a very good reason turbine cars have not caught on. It would be better to do it with an opposed piston diesel or something similar if you really must have a range extender. DoLittle posted:If the goal was to reduce CO2 emissions, there would be many more efficient uses for the money spent to buy something like a Model S. Tax incentives could also be used to promote electrification of things like city busses rather than luxury passenger cars. That would be much more efficient in terms of CO2 emission reduction. get your learn on, friend: https://www.transit.dot.gov/sites/fta.dot.gov/files/docs/PublicTransportationsRoleInRespondingToClimateChange2010.pdf cliff notes: on a per passenger VMT basis busses are already relatively efficient C02 producers compared to cars (roughly 65% of the emissions per pvmt). this accounts for the lousy average utilization of busses (26% occupancy on average). passenger cars and light trucks make up the majority (57%) of CO2 emissions in the transport sector, which also includes OTR trucks, and airplanes. busses make up part of a small share of that total called "other" there are already robust and aggressive hybridization, CNG conversion, and electric vehicle efforts in American cities i loving hate the policy concept that small minded idiots push that unless you are doing The Optimal One Thing that it's a dumb policy, plus you're absolutely wrong about where CO2 comes from in this country. It comes from passenger cars. You might get some better immediate bang for your buck because emissions are higher on a per-unit basis for trucks and busses, but until you get meaningful electrification of personal vehicles in this country we are hosed from a CO2 emissions perspective.
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Jul 24, 2018 01:31
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:When automated trucks arrive, I wonder if it would make economic sense to run lots of smaller vehicles instead of a few big ones. no because a 20,000 ton GVWR truck is not twice as expensive as a 10,000 ton GVWR truck the calculus will shift but cost of capital will if anything make up an even larger percentage of the total operating cost
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Jul 24, 2018 01:33
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I think in-town you can eliminate the air brake with hybrid regenerative braking.
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Jul 24, 2018 02:28
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sorry, i had a brain stupid thing - not air brakes, compression engine brakes air brakes aren't that loud to be honest
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Jul 24, 2018 02:32
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DoLittle posted:A few things: i don't disagree on #1 or #2, but you won't get economies of scale and reduced costs in EV batteries unless you expand the market for EV batteries. you are wrong on utilization. big heavy vehicles require a lot of energy to move around, and therefore a lot of batteries, and therefore quite a bit of time to recharge batteries when they are drained. if i am running a bus 14 hours a day, i don't have an opportunity to charge the bus since to build it to run 14 hours would require an outrageous amount of batteries. this is in large part why mild hybrid has been successful for busses. EV is not cost competitive on bus or garbage truck yet. if it were, people would buy them because fundamentally these are businesses with working assets where they need to make money. there's no vanity in garbage truck powertrains, and very little in busses.
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Jul 24, 2018 13:37
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once you start adding pantographs in to the mix that's something that has already been invented and in use for decades! I'm glad they're working out somewhere. Caltrans experiment with EV busses has been... very bad what bus has the performance you quote? BYD K3s are three hours to charge for 250km range
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Jul 24, 2018 14:21
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Charles posted:Oh? Can you elaborate more on these Caltrans buses? they bought a bunch of BYD K3s and they didn't work as advertised in part because caltrans is idiots and in part because BYD is a company that's based on being 30% hand waving, smoke, and mirrors
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Jul 24, 2018 19:52
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ironically the K9 is their best product and it's mostly Caltrans that managed to gently caress up but there was also a lot of bribery because why not i think the e6 pretty much works as advertised although at a much higher price point than originally stated (but of course this is par for the course with EVs), and BYD being 30% bullshit puts them still in the top 10% of EV manufacturers in terms of trustworthiness
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Jul 24, 2018 20:47
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Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:What did Caltrans screw up? oops, it was L A County Metro Transit. BYD offered local production and a headquarters move so they got awarded a contract for the busses for LA County and others. then they didn't do a good job managing the contract or entry in to service or validation of the routes (BYD says the busses were used on routes with hills that were too steep) and LA made them take a bunch back. They successively tried to push a bunch of no-bid contracts to BYD despite the poor service record. this is a good summary of the whole nonsense: http://www.govtech.com/fs/transport...-Contracts.html
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Jul 24, 2018 21:46
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the tldr is that BYD delivered a substandard product through a byzantine and corrupt procurement process
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Jul 24, 2018 22:06
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It kinda looks like a first-gen Honda HR-V, I guess it was from the same era.
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Jul 25, 2018 20:06
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That Taycan line investment stuff is pretty standard German works council shenanigans.
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Jul 29, 2018 15:31
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bmws have had horrible orange peel paint problems before so if that's the standard...
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Jul 30, 2018 20:15
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drgitlin posted:I’ve never seen a BMW with misaligned doors. Unlike the white Model 3 I was parked next to on Friday. Which also had some rather shockingly uneven panel gaps. And the rear bumper was a subtly different shade of white to the rest of the car. Normally you have to wait a few years to get that particular effect... i agree that Tesla build quality is bad, just pointing out the absurd arbitrary nature of what constitutes a luxury car and what does not, especially in 2018
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Jul 31, 2018 13:25
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has electrek ever not liked a Tesla decision
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Jul 31, 2018 17:19
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CommieGIR posted:If you ignore damage being done to a Lithium Ion cell, you don't deserve to debate. Its such a high risk issue, its akin to checking your fuel level with a lighter. there is still some question about whether mr tripp is telling the truth or not
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Aug 1, 2018 18:43
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if any other company was accused of same they would have the paper trail to prove it and would probably at minimum conduct an internal audit - tesla's persecution complex makes them look suspicious at times and it's not really benefiting them in any way
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Aug 2, 2018 02:50
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spandexcajun posted:Serious question for the haters, do you understand how big of a deal this is? yeah the problem is when people who weren't so predisposed to loving the product that they put cash on the nail on a product that didn't exist buy it instead of buying a Camry or whatever and are then really disappointed because they don't care as much about the "cool" factor and care more about the "is screwed together well" factor it's interesting though - is tesla going to be the first car company that is cool enough that the average consumer doesn't give a poo poo about traditional performance, quality and reliability? i genuinely don't know the answer and am interested to find out!
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Aug 7, 2018 22:55
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Tres Burritos posted:Is the chevy bolt any good? It kinda seemed more like, 'this is a car but it runs on electricity' and less of 'we are disrupting the transportation sector'. Or are the batteries poo poo or something? is tesla disrupting the transportation sector
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Aug 8, 2018 20:13
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tesla is disrupting the gently caress out of the franchised dealer sales and service model i will give them that
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Aug 8, 2018 20:55
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