|
I'm really, really worried about IBO. The first episode's 'let's introduce allllll the characters' had me pretty lost by the end, even though the action scenes were great-- the writing made me feel like someone tried to ape G-Reco without really understanding why it was great. And the fact that it's only supposed to be 25 episodes just worries me further.
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2015 18:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 19, 2024 11:45 |
|
|
A number of anime shows are ~25 episodes. 26 episodes is like 11 solid hours of content discounting commercial time. It is entirely plausible and even easy to tell full stories in a fraction of that time.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2015 18:20
|
|
|
Thinking 25 episodes is not enough is being too used to Gundam's/Shounen anime's lovely pacing.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2015 18:35
|
|
|
Tae posted:Thinking 25 episodes is not enough is being too used to Gundam's/Shounen anime's lovely pacing. This There are plenty of fantastic shows that tell a story with a fully fleshed out cast and setting in a dozen episodes. No original anime needs to be 52 episodes these days, that's just bloated Hell, even the MSG movies prove that there's a ton of fat to trim from shows of that length Srice fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Oct 7, 2015 |
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2015 18:55
|
|
|
Srice posted:This There are fantastic shows that are even shorter than that. For example: 0080
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2015 18:57
|
|
|
Droyer posted:There are fantastic shows that are even shorter than that. For example: 0080 Absolutely. It's all about being economical with the amount of screen time you have, and I feel that when you have 50+ episodes it's way too easy to become complacent about it
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2015 19:04
|
|
|
I thought g reconguista was okay but it really needed more episodes. Its pacing was bad.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2015 19:14
|
|
|
Son Ryo posted:I'm really, really worried about IBO. The first episode's 'let's introduce allllll the characters' had me pretty lost by the end, even though the action scenes were great-- the writing made me feel like someone tried to ape G-Reco without really understanding why it was great. And the fact that it's only supposed to be 25 episodes just worries me further. IBO's writing from Ep1 is nothing like G-Reco's from Ep1. IBO is a lot more explicit about the general state of the world and the players that have been shown in it so far and most of the major characters are a lot easier to get a grip on than G-Reco. Mars is a shithole that is being exploited by the Earth government, some people on Mars have an independence movement running and princess girl is a major independence player, she hires the Cool Protagonist Kids Club as her bodyguards, Earth Space Police attack to try to kill her and end up in conflict with the Cool Protagonist Kids Club. Comparatively, in G-Reco we had members of what would become the protagonist faction attempting to rob and hijack a space elevator in episode 1, followed by said protagonist faction shooting the gently caress out of a civilian city in episode 2 in order to rescue their captured compatriot. We didn't even know who the gently caress they were until several episodes later besides "space pirates".
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2015 19:47
|
|
|
Srice posted:This Eh, I've never really been a fan of the MSG movies as opposed to the TV series. And I've never really seen a 12-episode show that I didn't feel like it could have done with a few more episodes to flesh out some things. That's not to say there haven't been a fair share of 50 episode or longer shows that cram in filler or drag things out, but I still feel like 50 is the 'sweet spot' for show length. As for 0080, it's true that it didn't need many episodes to tell its story but the story was also extremely simple by Gundam standards, whether you feel like that's a good or bad thing. It also benefited from having a lot of its backstory established by the existing Gundam serires.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2015 21:43
|
|
|
A lot of it is something that boils down to personal preference but you've really never seen a 12 episode show that fit its episode count perfectly? There are plenty of examples of those each year.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2015 21:54
|
|
|
A 50 episode FLCL series would be painful I thought Gurren Lagann at 25 was a bit too much. 50 would be unbearably slow.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2015 22:03
|
|
|
It's funny that the marxism chat happened in the IBO thread since 0080 is probably the most staunchly anti-capitalist work in the franchise.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2015 22:04
|
|
|
Also I will also add that 0080 doesn't require the background info from MSG, it's a neat bit of backstory but it could be an original OVA and still work. They tell you everything about the setting that you need to know for the story it sets out to tell. The flavor bits like the Gundam being made for Amuro are just background fluff that's a neat link to the main series but not needed to understand the story.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2015 22:08
|
|
|
If you asked me to remove a single episode from Eureka Seven, I couldn't choose it. Even the filler episodes serve to advance the characters and themes. If you asked me to remove a dozen episodes from Zeta, I feel like I wouldn't have too much trouble keeping the series intact.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2015 01:59
|
|
|
MonsieurChoc posted:If you asked me to remove a single episode from Eureka Seven, I couldn't choose it. Even the filler episodes serve to advance the characters and themes. The football episode. I agree with your point though
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2015 02:00
|
|
|
MonsieurChoc posted:If you asked me to remove a single episode from Eureka Seven, I couldn't choose it. Even the filler episodes serve to advance the characters and themes. Oooh, ooh, I know where to start. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2015 02:01
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:Oooh, ooh, I know where to start. Haha I was literally just typing about how that was one of the few good ideas the Zeta movies had
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2015 02:03
|
|
|
Droyer posted:The football episode. I agree with your point though that episode's still pretty good but i would probably just keep the norb scenes...
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2015 02:05
|
|
|
yes, please excise the inferior Four. ugh
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2015 02:06
|
|
|
muike posted:that episode's still pretty good but i would probably just keep the norb scenes... Yeah it's fun but it's also straight-up filler
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2015 02:08
|
|
|
Raxivace posted:It's funny that the marxism chat happened in the IBO thread since 0080 is probably the most staunchly anti-capitalist work in the franchise. this makes me feel ignored
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2015 02:15
|
|
|
MonsieurChoc posted:If you asked me to remove a single episode from Eureka Seven, I couldn't choose it. Even the filler episodes serve to advance the characters and themes. You could cut out episodes 23 to 31 in Zeta and everything with Rosamia and you'd miss nothing of value.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2015 02:37
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:Oooh, ooh, I know where to start.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2015 02:55
|
|
|
Ernie Muppari posted:this makes me feel ignored Why is that?
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2015 02:58
|
|
|
AradoBalanga posted:Her intro, her out-of-nowhere comeback or both? yes.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2015 03:07
|
|
|
Raxivace posted:Why is that?  Ernie Muppari posted:the bourgeoisie of the post oyw universal century are more than happy to murder entire cities as soon as they catch a hint of revolutionary rhetoric in the air Ernie Muppari posted:it's not hard to come up with reasons for it if you take a materialistic view of the uc though Ernie Muppari posted:oh deffo, once the first colonies come online it's only a matter of time before the material conditions most of humanity lives with change enough that it becomes improbable for even the most oppressive government to claim much more than a single colony for anything close to a significant period of time 
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2015 03:13
|
|
|
I liked Rosima. She just wanted to have an older brother who loved her. =(
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2015 03:21
|
|
|
TNG posted:I liked Rosima. She just wanted to have an older brother who loved her. =( No, she was a crazy cyber-newtype programmed to turn retarded on command.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2015 03:30
|
|
|
Rosamia's problem is that she's a retread of the Four plot (which was just concludes a few episodes before the start of the Rosamia arc), but this time Four is a borderline-retarded womanchild with no chemistry with the lead. It feels like her story was written so that there would be something on the air while there was internal reshuffling going on.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2015 03:38
|
|
|
Those are all good posts, though I have to be honest that I just didn't remember about them since the newest one was like 10+ pages ago. I think the reason I find 0080 to be more effective than the stuff that came before is that I feel that other Gundam show's societal criticism is kept at a distance from the audience, partially because of the toy commercial aspects that are trying to directly appeal to them and partially because they never really try to directly indict audiences. 0080 comes out and pretty blatantly criticizes audiences for wanting to play with war toys or war video games or watch action movies that, well, glorify and ultimately help fuel war and economic inequality. It's pretty blatantly against all of the commercial aspects of the Gundam franchise, going as far as to make the Gundam (Al)ex itself one of the central antagonists (This plus the negative spin on the Christmas-y setting is really blatant about the show's anti-capitalist leanings). And just in case we didn't get it, there's that final line from Al's school friend about how the next war will have even cooler toys/death machines. I think it's a bit of an unfair message for the show to send in some ways (I'd have to imagine most people that would even bother to think about something like 0080 deeply at all would also have gotten the larger points of 0079 and everything else), but it dramatizes it very compellingly. Raxivace fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Oct 8, 2015 |
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2015 04:23
|
|
|
Unfair maybe, but I think it's a point that should be made, and often. Yes, it's all fantasy, and we can tell what's real from what's not, but reality is also created from what we take in and what we put back out. If that's a bunch of glamorized violence and consumer based mayhem in our fiction, maybe that's what we'll get in the world and find acceptable when we're confronted with real and much more brutal examples of it. I think the original Gundam is such a great piece of work because what it has to say about the culture and context that produced it is still important. We shouldn't forget or forgive our monstrous roles in our past. That the Principality of Zeon is really a pastiche of Imperial Japan is quite a brave and frankly astute thing to put forward. I wish more military based Sci-Fi would turn its lens on the war-like culture that produced it. All of the Tor Publishing authors could learn a thing or two from Tomino. In the IBO thread, I thought it was very interesting when someone said that they were off put by the sniper scene and that the show's action was bad because of it. Well, people getting murdered should be off putting. I thought that scene was effective because I was kind of sick to my stomach about it. Violence isn't fun, we should stop pretending it is. TNG fucked around with this message at 07:55 on Oct 8, 2015 |
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2015 07:39
|
|
|
Raxivace posted:I think it's a bit of an unfair message for the show to send in some ways (I'd have to imagine most people that would even bother to think about something like 0080 deeply at all would also have gotten the larger points of 0079 and everything else), but it dramatizes it very compellingly. This is pretty much my only problem with 0080. It is so overwhelmingly unsubtle about telling me that I'm a terrible person that it just gets kind of silly. Though It does make the fact that the Al, Bernie and Chris have happy endings in Build Fighters (the furthest Gundam has ever gone in celebrating its merchandise) unintentionally hilarious. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2015 07:58
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLdh2r_xwGI
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2015 08:00
|
|
|
You know, I don't really think 0080 is calling the viewer a terrible person for liking the toyetic elements of the franchise. There's a certain distance you're afforded when viewing a conflict that isn't remotely real; it struck me as more of a commentary on things like GI Joe and Call of Duty that take the real-life military and surgically suck anything that isn't "cool" out of them, rather than a commentary on people thinking an entirely fictional war is entertaining.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2015 08:33
|
|
|
LORD OF BUTT posted:You know, I don't really think 0080 is calling the viewer a terrible person for liking the toyetic elements of the franchise. There's a certain distance you're afforded when viewing a conflict that isn't remotely real; it struck me as more of a commentary on things like GI Joe and Call of Duty that take the real-life military and surgically suck anything that isn't "cool" out of them, rather than a commentary on people thinking an entirely fictional war is entertaining. It's a pretty direct commentary on how viewers place more value on the machines than human lives, in the fictional narrative. It was constructed deliberately to reverse that situation, every character center to the story is presented sympathetically and given pathos and reason for their actions, the true antagonist is viewed from such distance and their actual effect on the plot so negligible it is nullified. It's a show about people, not a show about robot war. Sharkopath fucked around with this message at 08:55 on Oct 8, 2015 |
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2015 08:45
|
|
|
I dunno, Al and his Pals are very much military otaku in their language and naivete. Al mostly follows the mysterious Zaku, which he knows all about, because he and his buddies love all the cool Zeon robots and how they're so much better than the lame Federation ones. Al gets drawn into a conflict where he witnesses the deaths of the entire Cyclops team, the burgerification of a man he had grown to admire, and knows that they died for nothing since the fleet coming to destroy the colony was intercepted. Also the war ended 4 days prior to Bernie's death. The ending is so great because everything Al had believed get's shoved back into his face. "Don't cry, Al. There will be another war soon." His machine worship and membership in the cult of militarism are shown to be the hollow and destructive things there really are. Maybe it's not so much a condemnation of people liking it, but an attempt to ask people what liking all of these things that make gear sounds and fly around and shoot really means in the world. TNG fucked around with this message at 08:56 on Oct 8, 2015 |
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2015 08:52
|
|
|
It's also still super prescient because the first thing everybody said about the new gundam show is I hope the robots are cool and I hope the fights look cool, characters and the actual writing are still considered secondary aspects of the franchise. All the talk about death flags just kinda hammers it in that as a genre mecha is still plot-narrative focused instead of character-narrative focused, to its detriment, although that's a personal observation and obviously plenty will disagree.
Sharkopath fucked around with this message at 08:57 on Oct 8, 2015 |
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2015 08:55
|
|
|
Orga is covered in death flags not because "it's Gundam, somebody must die to add tragedy" but because he's so obviously a roadblock to Mika's development.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2015 09:00
|
|
|
I think people are also engaging with cynicism about the robot show genre in general, which I myself am guilty of. I'd put that more at the feet of the creators rather than a burnt out audience that can call out the beats 8 episodes in advanced. I think one of the problems with post-modernity is that it has convinced both creator and audience that a work is at its core about itself and its genre. That history has ended, there's nothing new, and it's all just about thinking about it as just a small thread in an old and moth bitten tapestry. I think if creators want to spice things up, there should be a bit of a break with that way of thinking. 0080 does it well, since how it works with its genre's tropes really affects the emotions of the characters and the audience. Certainly much more interesting than "Orga's gonna, and gotta, die because that's his archetype's point in these types of stories".
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2015 09:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 19, 2024 11:45 |
|
|
BlitzBlast posted:Orga is covered in death flags not because "it's Gundam, somebody must die to add tragedy" but because he's so obviously a roadblock to Mika's development. Yeah, that's what I mean by plot focus instead of character-focus, sorry. I'm uneducated so I try to describe things as best I can but I probably use the wrong words to do it. Plot Narratives are traditional narratives formed by very mechanical adherence to tradition and convention. The hand of the author is very visibly crafting the narrative to match and then play with the audience's expectations for how these stories should go, in order to entertain. Character narratives are stories where the impetus is instead on the interactions and beliefs of the characters involved within. The hand of the author is still present but instead of things happening because this is what would tell the best story, its allowing things to develop more naturally through internal events and conflicts instead of overtly crafted external ones. Think Gabriel Garcia Marquez's short story work, I suppose. Plot and Character focus also isn't a strict black/white spectrum either, its possible to tell stories without dramatic external events affecting them but even with those big actions there is room for characters to drive the story as opposed to the events of the plot driving them. 0080's characters are pressured by characters and events outside of their control to act the way they do, but the narrative gives them time and space to explore why they have made these decisions anyways, in a way a lot of longer gundam shows don't give its characters a chance to. That's just my view, though.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2015 09:16
|
|