Exalted 3E - We're All Exalted Fans Here - The Something Awful Forums

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Exalted 3E - We're All Exalted Fans Here

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

Perfect Soul has two things going for her. First, she looks really cool. Second, she's not Panther. I consider her a downpayment in the "we're fixing things, honestly" promise.

(For the unitiated: see here and here)

# ¿ May 31, 2013 03:08

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 14, 2024 01:45

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

Denim Avenger posted:

Solar Mate was a desperate attempt to try and fit Lunars into the setting and make it feel like they belonged there when they very obviously didn't. It says a lot that they initially considered removing Lunars all together from Third Edition.

I wasn't aware of this! ... I think it might have been my preferred solution.

# ¿ May 31, 2013 04:22

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

Fightest posted:

This is going loving way over my head. Can someone, without referencing mid-20th Century philosophers, tell me what the differences are between a Lunar and a Solar beyond one can turn into a dinosaur and the other shines like the Sun?

They support different archetypes. Solars come in one of five different castes: soldier, priest, scholar, infiltrator and diplomat. Half of the scope of things that your character is good at comes from your choice of caste, the other half you cherry-pick as you prefer. As a Solar you're expected to buy specialized magic that makes you really good at many of these activities, hopefully finding some synergy to make it all come together into an interesting character (e.g., the Dawn guy with Melee, War, Presence and Sail magic would make for a kickass admiral).

Lunars come in one of three different castes: warrior, trickster and shaman. They've traditionally been defined by the things they can't do: large-scale social engineering, making magical infrastructure, founding or effectively leading large organizations. They don't get to do large-scale, permanent and constructive things. This focus on what they can't do is unfortunate and virtually everyone agrees that the implementation of Lunars has sucked in both editions of Exalted (they also violently disagree on how to fix it). Hopefully third edition will deliver something better.

# ¿ May 31, 2013 13:13

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

Zereth posted:

The people who are sure it doesn't work are probably those Twilights who killed thousands of people to try and put their souls back together afterwards in the First Age.

Turns out people didn't like that sort of thing much and now they're all dead!

Pretty much. I don't think there's any explicit metaphysical reason for resurrection to be truly impossible in Exalted: the most anyone can say is "dude, we tried this lots of times and it didn't work despite our best efforts. If a Twilight with resources can't do it, then it must be impossible." To a certain kind of person that kind of claim is an encouragement.

Also, it helps to keep in mind that the most important reason for why resurrection doesn't work is because it would make death meaningless in the "it's okay, we've got a high-level cleric" way. Killing people in Exalted matters because there are no backsies.

# ¿ Jun 3, 2013 00:50

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

Boogaleeboo posted:

l question: With your understanding of the setting as a setting, and not as some game balance rules, tell me why resurrection is *impossible*. Not because "We wanted death to feel meaningful", that's a totally valid game reason not to have it but it's not something characters would know. All characters know is how close and how meaningless and arbitrary are the aspects of the world that keep them from doing one relatively simple thing.

Why *wouldn't* they keep trying? Lots of things were impossible right up to the second they weren't. A Terrestrial could never take control of the Realm Defense Grid....until one did. That particular impossibility is the single defining miracle of the modern age of Exalted, the one by which all powers are shaping their actions. In a world of miracles, why would you ever stop believing?

Every serious attempt by Exalted to bring someone back to life�and there have to have been thousands�will have taken into account everything those Exalted knew about Creation's metaphysics and then proceeded with a logical hypothesis. You'd expect something to happen: that is to say, if their resurrection rituals failed, it wasn't by getting a "no reaction" result. Like human transmutation in Full Metal Alchemist (or making Liminals in Exalted now I guess) it's much more interesting when the experiment fails by yielding a result that is similar to what you wanted, but different in a very meaningful way.

It's easier to think of resurrection as "no one has got it right yet" than "no one gets any results".

Lymond fucked around with this message at 06:14 on Jun 3, 2013

# ¿ Jun 3, 2013 02:20

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

Ferrinus posted:

Breeding is a crummy game trait and there are plenty of ways for the Dragon-Blooded to be in decline that don't involve their maximum essence pools dropping by a fraction with each generation!

Yes. It's also one of those things that don't need to be represented mechanically: the game doesn't suffer if you strip Breeding out, note that stronger bloodlines have a stronger impact on the character's appearance, and leave it at that�everything else can be handled narratively by the Storyteller. Leave players free to decide whether they'd like to stand out and call attention to their magnificent lineage or be "that guy that looks totally normal but can make his sword catch on fire, and is looked down on by Realm snobs".

Also... one page of content? I'm a little underwhelmed.

Lymond fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Jun 5, 2013

# ¿ Jun 5, 2013 22:07

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

Ferrinus posted:

I am pretty excited at the idea of bloodline-specific charms and powers. It's a great way to get across the idea that dragon-blooded bloodlines are changing and diverging from the original template without, like, fingering miscegenation as the downfall of a once-mighty empire. Maybe the ancient dragon-blooded had a bunch of weird, primal elemental powers, but modern-day interbred-with-unExalted dragon-blooded have their own crazy stuff.

I like the idea in that it gives the Great Houses more narrative impact. It makes me think of martial arts organizations in the wulin, or (forgive me) ninja bloodlines in Naruto. There are going to be certain expectations if you come across a Fire Aspect from House Cathak. Also, watching Dragon-Blooded in action will give the loremaster / diplomat the opportunity to furrow their brow and go "that is a signature move from House Cathak! This one is a Realm spy!"

# ¿ Jun 5, 2013 22:23

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

Plague of Hats posted:

Neph probably saved this game, but a lot of what it needed saving from was stuff he wrote.

I believe you. You really do need him though: on top of being a really nice dude, he was also by far the best communicator that Exalted has had. Holden recently got banned for tone, and John is worse. Nephilpal instilled a lot of excitement over metaphysical fiddly bits without antagonizing anyone, just imagine if he had a whole new edition to talk about.

Lymond fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Jun 6, 2013

# ¿ Jun 6, 2013 16:51

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

mistaya posted:

That's not really a big deal as long as you can't use like, 5 more charms than I can on a turn, even if I have less combat charms overall it just means I have less options when it comes to combat, not that I'm totally ineffective. Same as for non-combat things, where I'll have more options than you. If the root-charms are solid, and can cover a wide enough range of fight-mans situations, it's all good.

This would be nice, but it's not how Exalted has ever worked. Charms which have more requisites are as a rule much stronger. By definition, the guy who's invested in a lot of deep combat trees is not just going to have more options than you, he's going to have much better options than you do. Exalted is very heavily biased towards specialization, and I don't get the sense that this is going to change from the little that we've been told about XP costs / chargen / Charms.

# ¿ Jun 6, 2013 18:57

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

I don't want or need an apology. I found the Charms tasteless and niche, but I didn't read rape in them and wasn't offended. The only thing that's annoyed me is the vague responses and the passive-aggressive "you guys are over-reacting and make Lunar fans seem tame by comparison" tone from Holden. So long as the books themselves treat the audience with respect and they don't do any weird crap like sex-only Charms, I'll be satisfied.

# ¿ Jun 6, 2013 20:14

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

Ferrinus posted:

Your blindness shouldn't be Exalted's problem.

I agree. I didn't read rape in the Charm preview, but I do sympathize with those who did. I don't want to see those things in print any more than you do.

Still, the fact that I was blind to that does mean that it's easier for me to see the whole thing as a sordid mistake. First in terms of content, and then in communication / strategy with Rich Thomas, who is in charge of the Kickstarter project and was adamant about putting the not-apology update�apparently in the belief that it would help and clear up a misunderstanding. Fuckups in writing and chain of command are something I understand, and given they're for a bare-bones preview that no one will game with, can easily forgive so long as they're fixed in the actual product.

A "we won't include anything like that in the book" would be great. An "I'm sorry we subjected you to that half-page of text" feels unnecessary. "lulz, a rape joke. Also, you guys are worse than the Lunar fans" was uncalled for and annoys me.

# ¿ Jun 7, 2013 00:22

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

The "doubling down" was someone else. Holden basically said that he couldn't control what his boss decided to do: it sounds like a classic command chain mistake. I don't know him or John so I can't speak about their motivations, but I don't remember them ever stressing sexual abuse in their work, and I don't see why they would ever want to double down on this. If anything, I expect them to be pretty careful in their approach to Abyssal Charms after this whole ordeal. I'm inclined to be charitable until they seal stuff like this into an actual product. I take the "we don't want to cause anguish with this stuff" quote at face value.

Lymond fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Jun 7, 2013

# ¿ Jun 7, 2013 01:18

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

MiltonSlavemasta posted:

I agree with you, but wanted to respond to your questions regarding books. Shards of the Exalted Dream is, in my opinion, one of the best books Exalted has ever seen, giving info on how to use the core concepts and themes within Exalted in four different settings, providing an entirely new mini-rpg about kung fu battling, charms related to the modern era, rules hacks that improve multiple splats, four awesome settings, baller new artifacts, et cetera, et cetera. Holden worked on Alchemicals, which, mechanically, were probably the best-functioning splat in all of 2e, and definitely had some cool stuff in it as well. Glories of the Most High was written by John and Holden, and it had some great charms, martial arts, and fluff interspersed with some not-so-great things, particularly in the Luna portion. It still sold really well, or so I hear.

There's also CotD: Autocthonia, which was released episodically; I don't know much about it, but I hear it was quite popular and would definitely check it out before running an Alchemical game. The final book was Masters of Jade, which was an awesome thing about the Guild which a great subsystem for running organizations in general. One or both of the current developers have author credits on all of these books, and almost certainly others I've forgotten, so they've done a lot of things besides errata.

I rate them as having a very good track record on setting and a mixed one on mechanics. Glories of the Most High and Ink Monkeys had mechanical content that ranged from clever to what-the-hell-were-you-thinking. Alchemicals was good overall. The 2.5 update is an unfinished mess with many good insights. There's the potential for a solid product there, definitely�but their previous work isn't solid enough to reassure me.

My biggest concern is how good they are at dealing with feedback. Playtesting is going to be crucial for their new combat engine, and Holden and John haven't dealt with criticism too well so far. I'm not just referring to the Abyssal preview: back in the day, Holden's reaction to criticism for Cobra Style (which was seriously broken) was along the lines of "I'm disappointed that all you people want Martial Arts to suck", and more recently it's been "people were being hysterical, it's not so bad".

# ¿ Jun 7, 2013 01:51

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

MiltonSlavemasta posted:

And, yeah, while the 2.5 update is unfinished, I don't know that I'd call it a mess for any reasons other than that it's built on a foundation of 2e, and that it's not like anyone was paying them to errata all the things too busted to fix.

Many of the revised weapon stats are poorly balanced. There are no guidelines for conversion of older material. Overdrive adds a third mote pool with its own fiddly bits and different conditions that need to be tracked during combat, as though Exalted wasn't already too complex. With the change to combo rules, I don't think the benefit is worth the overhead.

# ¿ Jun 7, 2013 02:24

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

Nightskye posted:

Honestly, at this point I'm primarily excited about the setting update-- on that they seem to have a lot of really solid ideas I'm looking forward to incorporating.

Complete agreement. I'm one of those exceptions who gets much more into politics than metaphysical fiddly bits, and I really like the emphasis that they've put back into that. What the writers have said about the different Directions, their work on the new map, a new signature circle that seems appealing, the de-emphasis of the Yozis�all of this speaks to a lot of thought on what they're doing. I have tempered expectations on the mechanics, but I'm pledging for the setting.

# ¿ Jun 7, 2013 04:08

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

GreenMetalSun posted:

Glories was the last book for 2E I read and it convinced me to stop reading Exalted.

Who did the DB errata? I remember when it hit I wanted to run a game, and found it to be pretty poo poo.

I mean, someone looked at the Primordial sub-soul possession Charm in the Bureaucracy tree and was like, 'awwwww yeah, this is a good idea'. Not to mention the whole, 'Guess what, you have Charms that don't even work unless you're in the presence of your august Celestial masters!' (I remember Holden bragging about the Defense-Against-Anathema Charm being changed to do that, but not if he actually did it.)

Nephilpal did Ten Thousand Correct Actions. He also did the DB "nuke a city in 10 seconds flat" Charm for Dreams of the First Age. Much as I like the man, I find a lot of his work to be ~~extremely questionable~~ bad.

# ¿ Jun 7, 2013 04:11

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

GreenMetalSun posted:

That's not exactly what I meant. Dragon-Blooded were indeed terrible pre-errata.

It's just that there's some seriously glaring WTF'ery with the errata. Like Primordial sub-soul possession Charms, 'this charm doesn't work properly unless you're in the presence of your proper masters, because you aren't a real Exalt' Charms, 'spend essence and roll to do a thing you you should be able to do without magic' Charms, and 'this is pretty much an Excellency with a different name' Charms.

Add to that (in TCA):
* butchering the tone of the Mass Combat system (entire armies can now jump mountains, etc.);
* more Purity Charms;
* scene-long Charm to substitute Dodge MDV for Dodge DV for Solars and Abyssals;
* building on the instant city-block annihilation Charm (Dragon Vortex Attack) rather than nerfing it back into its (reasonable) 1E incarnation;
* the inclusion of a new keyword that made Dragon-Blooded overpower other Exalted in Mass Combat. This was supposed to be okay because all other Exalted would also have the Leader keyword retrofitted into their charmsets. After all, it's not as though there were any more important priorities for errata.

:v:

Lymond fucked around with this message at 05:06 on Jun 7, 2013

# ¿ Jun 7, 2013 05:01

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

pospysyl posted:

Like, taking the Exalted setting as a serious Forgotten Realms style setting is the absolutely wrong direction to go.

Hold on, Forgotten Realms is a serious setting and Creation isn't? :wth:

# ¿ Jun 7, 2013 19:05

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

Heart Attacks posted:

I think Holden gets off on doing the I know something that you don't thing. He's been doing it since long before he was an important person in the Exalted lineup.

He's also mentioned on plenty of occasions that he's been gagged with NDAs, and he and the team were jumping up and down in impatience to tell people about what they were doing. Assigning a motive like this one is uncharitable and not reasonable.

# ¿ Jun 7, 2013 19:08

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

Arivia posted:

So yeah, the heroic epic setting that Creation is isn't and shouldn't be like the FR, because they serve two different purposes. I think a product like that timeline would suck a lot of fun out of what people do in Exalted, and be super uninteresting and really useless for a lot of groups; conversely it was one of the best products of its edition for the FR. They're both serious, but different kinds of serious, if that makes sense.

Thank you, the clarification helps. The little I know of FR comes from playing with a DM who does love his god NPCs, and having Elminster and other level 20+ people faffing around must have given me a skewed perspective on the setting.

Nessus posted:

Hm. While I imagine there have been ample bonehead maneuvers, that is a point: is it possible that we aren't getting mechanics "because forums are mean" so much as "NDAs from Iceland, or perhaps the dark will of Richard Thomas"?

I have no idea. But attributing malice (or perverse satisfaction) when incompetence / restrictions / communication issues are more likely doesn't seem fair.

Lymond fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Jun 7, 2013

# ¿ Jun 7, 2013 19:33

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

Bedlamdan posted:

In retrospect that really doesn't sound all that different from a setting full of elder exalts and ancient ghosts faffing around.

Precisely. That's why I'm willing to believe that FR is a whole lot better than what I was exposed to.

# ¿ Jun 7, 2013 19:38

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

MiltonSlavemasta posted:

Now, I'm loving inspired to make a system of rewards for indulging these.

My table went apeshit over FATE-style negative Aspects. All they needed was the excuse of FATE points (which they could use to inflict troll declarations on the table) to go absolutely nuts with the Storyteller's compels. We also had a lot of fun with "negative" conditions that gave bonuses in Weapons of the Gods. I'd love to have a general system that could be plugged into different games.

# ¿ Jun 7, 2013 20:45

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

Stephenls posted:

To be fair, the "Powerless off the wheat field" thing comes from something John said:

"Does she win this battle? Absolutely. She wins hard.

"They are standing in Creation, and in her field. She was risen up by the god of the field and given the divine mandate by Heaven to cast them out. The Unconquered Sun and Ten Sheaves are with her.

"She cannot lose."

I want to hold my head and despair about humanity and forums without aggressive moderation. Instead, I'm going to chime in about Janest being cool. The Exigent Exalted are the single most exciting thing I've read about the Ex3 setting, and I've read a lot of things that make me happy.

Lymond fucked around with this message at 08:05 on Jun 9, 2013

# ¿ Jun 9, 2013 07:49

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

Stephenls posted:

(I like to imagine that Janest's scythe is articulate, and the blade swings out into a more practical configuration once she starts fighting. It's green! "Living weapon"-type stuff is totally in theme!)

I'd like it if you could make this explicit in the same way that Volfer's sword is demonic. Saying "artifacts are special and unique" and so forth is one thing, showing Serrana, the living scythe changing configuration for optimal reaping would be great. You can even call it Elpheba instead of Serrana to keep with the Oz jokes.

e: Or an anagram like Aphabel if you want to be more obscure about it. Either way, Janest the Strawmaiden is the coolest new character you've shown for Ex3 and deserves a spot in Arms of the Chosen.

Lymond fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Jun 9, 2013

# ¿ Jun 9, 2013 20:05

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

I'm reading a lot of overreaction here.

Unarmed and unarmored characters were viable in Exalted 2E, and not in the "you can't be a hero on your own so be the Meleeist's grapple bitch" sense of the word. There was specialized magic to benefit people who wanted to fight unarmed and unarmored, and there were also specialized artifacts for the same purpose. You don't need to make up magical sutra things�the Perfected Kata Bracers (unbalanced as they are) already are precisely that. There's magical spider silk that can act like armor and that stacks with Charms like Iron Kettle Body.

What Stephenls is saying is that Exalted is based around the idea that Making Things Matters. Gear and magic that makes your fists stronger and your body harder have always been part of Exalted. If you have those tools, you shouldn't be at a disadvantage against someone who has tools that look like a sword and armor instead.

# ¿ Jun 9, 2013 23:14

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

Thesaurasaurus posted:

Even the Sid splatbook gets in on it by making teaching Violet Bier of Sorrows to a non-Sid a crime more severe than murdering a co-worker.

In their defense, it really was that broken on release. I should know, a player talked me into letting him learn the first few Charms.

# ¿ Jun 9, 2013 23:22

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

Heart Attacks posted:

Generally speaking, the theme has been, "With equal investment, unarmed loses to armed."

Also, "You can use smashfists!" is not any better than "You can use a sword!" for addressing people who want to play unarmed fighters!

Nessus posted:

Stylistically speaking, I should be able to learn how to kick rear end with my bare hands in a manner which is competitive with swording, axeing, arrowing, and batcatting. Smash fists are cool but kind of make it so you are not using your bare hands/feet/forehead.

This isn't to say you shouldn't have to make some kind of investment comparable to 'the cost of a daiklave' in order to have combat outputs comparable to 'a guy with a daiklave' of course, but punchfists lock you into the punchfist style. What if I'm a judo-style master, or a Lisa Lisa-style scarf-and-magic user, or, God save us, a grappler??

e: To vaguely repeat myself I think it's OK if kung fu tends to be less damageload, more tricks - or perhaps to use the new lingo, it's easier to build momentum with karate, at the cost of (say) if the other guy with the giant axe does get the drop on you, you may have a harder time parrying the blow than you would with a sword.

You can do unarmed with your drat forehead if you want to. Don't pretend that Exalted doesn't have tools for people who like the barehanded / unarmored aesthetic, because it does.

# ¿ Jun 9, 2013 23:25

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

Heart Attacks posted:

"You can get the barehanded aesthetic by covering your hands!"

Okay man.

*facepalm*

# ¿ Jun 9, 2013 23:31

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

Heart Attacks posted:

Perfected Kata Bracers are a terrible example, given that they're a 4-dot artifact whose primary benefit is already attached to like 80% of Form Charms. They vary between 'useless' and 'way more powerful than is justifiable'; "agg on CoD!" isn't even on the same page as "Blanket 2m reduction to Style charms"

Perfected Kata Bracers posted:

She adds her Essence to the accuracy, damage and defense of her unarmed attacks

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ¿ Jun 10, 2013 00:00

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

MiltonSlavemasta posted:

That reminds me: More charms like One Hand Fury. If what one has to do to get on par with a weapon-user is to turn their body into a weapon permanently, so be it. I much prefer that to external poo poo like Smashfists or Perfected Kata Bracers which de-emphasize the internal vs. external dichotomy I want to have going on when I make an Unarmed character.

I like infrastructure being a thing, but I also like emphasizing that infrastructure is as important for information as it is for material goods.

Edit: I need to point out that you dorks fail to realize that Perfected Kata Bracers work just as well for a weapon-using martial artist.

It's not hard to create Artifacts that boost unarmed / unarmored characters. I cite Perfected Kata Bracers as an example of things that are already there, even as I acknowledge that the numbers and mechanics that it was given are badly-designed.

If the reason you want to play an unarmed / unarmored character is to emphasize internal v. external sources of power, that's something else. For that you'll need to create custom content that works differently.

# ¿ Jun 10, 2013 00:40

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

Stephenls posted:

In any game where different traits do different things, CharOp is never not going to be a thing. There really is no perfect solution to this -- we can make all characters mechanically identical, in which case what's the point of mechanics, or we can make characters mechanically different in which case some things will be more optimal than others; we can make characters who are optimal in different contexts, in which case it's up to the ST to determine when to let the players succeed at choosing their context and therefore it's all just GM fiat; we can make the system sufficiently forgiving or tactically deep that system mastery can make up for suboptimal stats in which case a) some people would argue that's the point of stats if they don't accurately reflect character competence, while b) other people would still argue that given equal system mastery, it's unfair that some builds are more effective than others. 'Round and 'round we go.

I see a lot of calls here for some sort of ideal perfect balance between all the different factors in question, but there's no perfect solution when nobody can agree on the significance of all the factors. People value verisimilitude to different degrees; they value engaging tactical play to different degrees, they value freedom of aesthetic choice in chargen to different degrees. Everyone in the debate has some viewpoint counter to their own they find particularly odious, and probably read it into someone else's arguments. No matter what design philosophy or imperative I admit to here, someone, somewhere thinks it's a loving stupid design philosophy or imperative, and whenever I discuss any given design imperative there's someone who takes it to mean we value whatever design imperative I'm discussing right now over other design imperatives that may be equally important but which are not topical to the current discussion.

Ultimately Exalted 3rd Edition will be judged on what hits print. We feel we've found a great balance between aesthetic freedom, tactical play, and verisimilitude, and we hope you agree when you see it.

The idea of suboptimal combat stats for a game like Exalted doesn't appeal to me. If Exalted is indeed a kung fu movie and characters are expected to regularly have to fight for their lives / punch faces for justice, you may as well save players and the Storyteller a lot of effort and do away with all the fiddly I'll scrounge points from here and here and buy specialties for Melee: In Combat +3 crap. Legends of the Wulin does a good job of it and allows for mechanical differentiation in weapon choice, external styles, internal styles and conditions.

When you put yourself in the Storyteller's shoes and realize that:
(a) In opposed checks a 2 dice difference means a ~50% advantage in the Storyteller system;
(b) Achieving a 2 dice difference in base stats�let alone after combat buffs�requires an amazingly stringent play contract that few groups can pull off;
(c) Encounter design becomes harder the larger the difference in capability between your players...

... it's hard for me to see any benefit to allowing for gross disparities in player stats. You're talking about tradeoffs, but I don't see what you're gaining by allowing the Dawn with overwhelming dice take over the combat encounters while the Zenith with moderate numbers falls asleep, or the Zenith to dominate social scenes while the Dawn snores. Allowing for mechanical differentiation is great, but the degree of disparity in capabilities that Exalted's traditional chargen process encourages is undesirable.

I'd be interested in seeing what you've built as a combat engine, but I don't think you can get away from this particular problem while also keeping the same traits and dice resolution mechanics.

Lymond fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Jun 10, 2013

# ¿ Jun 10, 2013 01:25

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

MiltonSlavemasta posted:

I was mainly getting snippy with Lymond because I thought the assertion that charms like One Hand Fury and Hand Fang Intro and Blade of the Battle Maiden would have to be custom content was a bit absurd;

It is an absurd statement. I was still thinking of sutras and meditations as you'd proposed earlier, stuff outside the scope of the martial arts styles that we know. If your problem with stuff like One Hand Fury and Blade of the Battle Maiden was only in their implementation�and I can sort of see that from your other posts now�then things should turn out fine with Holden in the dev team.

# ¿ Jun 10, 2013 03:17

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

MiltonSlavemasta posted:

There's a lot of past edition and mythic support for archers being able to attack at stupendous ranges, but that doesn't mitigate the very valid game design issue you've pointed out. I don't know if I want "stay out of range and kite people" to be a totally invalid method of fighting, but I absolutely see where you're coming from. It could be that making attacks at stupendous ranges is mainly for Exalt-level combatants and other Exalt-level combatants will generally have the ability to easily close that range unless they've chosen to diminish their mobility for other bonuses in the hopes that allies will back them up.

Personally, one advantage I'd like to see for archers is the ability to bring a lethal strike to bear whenever any of the opponents on the board are vulnerable, so your archer on the high ground can spy all five Immaculate Monks and deliver a killing shot whenever there's an opening on any of them. Being able to attack at a range that can't be easily closed, though, should be draining enough that you can't just kite people indefinitely. In Wulin you have to spend scarce resources to attack people who aren't in zones adjacent to you, and maybe something like that would be best for Exalted.

This maybe lends itself to a conception of archers as something like artillery or Devastator Marines or whatever example you prefer; Archers plant and deliver precision lethal attacks to wherever it's needed; This planting is part of how the Archer does their poo poo, and if they need to work on the run, they can't use the full extent of their capabilities, and even firing on the run usually limits their mobility to such an extent that they're going to get caught by someone who isn't shooting back, even a fullplate doofus. Such an implementation could help avoid the Invincible Horse Archer issue early 4e had.

Edit: Now, as a practical consideration, I should maybe point out that even if what I mentioned previously is taken as the default, it would be pretty unreasonable in the Exalted setting to avoid allowing a player to be Never Within Reach of meleeists, given all the potential for flying mounts, wings, et cetera. There's ultimately no way you can let players play in the setting and not allow for the possibility of someone riding a butterfly spirit to a dozen yards in the air or so and raining arrows down on people. This probably means characters who ought to be able to fight solo well with no backup will need to have some method of ranged fighting or be highly, highly mobile. I'm not sure this is a bad thing; It also encourages groups who fight all types of entities in Exalted to have a combined arms makeup instead of being Grand Daiklave and Full Plate Society.

This might work, but the more I read over the issue the harder it seems to make a system that differentiates fighting abilities, is balanced (for whatever definition of the word you want to use) and also fun for everyone involved given all the constraints we have. I'm drawn to redefining the problem by giving characters competence in several different types of weapons and just making each have strong situational advantages. If you can see your enemy coming, your group can all grab bows and make pincushions out of your opponents. If your enemy is up close, your group can adopt their close combat fighting style of choice. Most people might want to keep a hatchet on hand or a set of knives strapped to their forearms, to be used when an opportunity arises out of your close-combat reach.

This would simplify design in that you don't need to worry too much about any weapon ability dominating another: if you didn't bring a bow and you can't reach that horse archer, the problem is not in the system but in your being unprepared. Unfortunately, this goes against the grain of the ability system we'll have.

# ¿ Jun 11, 2013 05:36

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

The last 6+ pages of this thread help me understand why the Exalted dev team is so adamant about saying that "power tiers" for the Exalted as illustrated by 2E are dumb and they're using another approach now. How well they pull that off is still up in the air, but at least I doubt that we'll have to deal with "Solars are the best at everything always".

I also wanted to point out that the setting only needs that Solars be the strongest... at the end. Creation is lessened without Solars because other Exalted couldn't replicate the height of Solar genius, but there's no reason why Lunars and Sidereals can't match them during the long journey to get there. The greatest threat that a Dawn poses is not that he can always beat you in a straight fight, but that if you make the mistake of leaving him alone for a few decades he will have produced an aggressively-expanding militaristic dystopia with the world's most fearsome professional armies marching down your land. That alone is enough for everyone to get really nervous about them coming back, and making plans that involve seducing / controlling / allying / beheading them.

People can't afford to ignore the Solars because of their long-term potential, not because they have a larger mote pool / cheaper Charms / more effective tricks / higher dice caps. The game works fine if Solars are about as strong as the other Celestials during play: as far as we're concerned, that long-term potential can be narrative stuff that is beyond the scope of most campaigns.

# ¿ Jul 23, 2013 07:00

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

Ferrinus posted:

It's lame. It leaches the immediate rhetorical impact of playing a Solar out of the game. When you choose five favored abilities and ten Charms you aren't making someone who's scary because they might one day discover a giant spell or something, you're making someone who is immediately and innately the mightiest and most fearsome of the Chosen.

I keep saying: the attitudes displayed in this thread are, themselves, evidence of the amazing dramatic weight that the Solars have thanks to their status as the greatest of the Exalted. Gosh, wouldn't everyone just feel better about the Solars if they weren't personally dangerous but just happened to know the nuclear launch codes or whatever? That'd make them much more palatable, much easier to accept.

Having a significant edge over equal-XP opponents does not make you immediately and innately the mightiest and most fearsome of the Chosen. Levelling the power curve so that your starting E2 Solar Circle can take on the tyrants that are slowly choking Creation would do that, and that would be a pretty poor story. A good story is about the journey to get what you want, and how you change and grow throughout it. Solars do not need to be the unquestioned top dog at every step of that journey for the world to quake when the Jade Prison is ruptured.

# ¿ Jul 23, 2013 23:20

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

Bedlamdan posted:

Yeah, at the very least I don't think it's going to be an open and shut thing when a Solar fights a Lunar anymore, which I like. Ideally, I'd like to see a Solar Blademaster looks at a Lunar in its giant Kaiju form, and think to himself "I could really die here." Given that Hatewheel said earlier that a farmboy with a knife might be able to kill a trained swordsman, or that a Solar might have a tough time against five heroic mortals, I think that a Lunar might have better odds when squaring off mono-a-mono with a Solar in 3E.

Mono-a-mono translates into monkey-to-monkey, making this the awesomest visual image for Exalted that I've gotten in a while.

# ¿ Jul 24, 2013 04:39

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

Stallion Cabana posted:

As for playing Fate or whatever; I understand that it might be the better system, and I understand this will probably make me sound groggy as gently caress, but I wouldn't feel right asking my players to swap. We all play Exalted, and we have the trust we're not going to break it, and I know the system well enough to create good challenges, which I don't know if I could do in Fate. Also I always felt Fate was too fluffy for me, I like the crunch of Exalted, even if it's not exactly perfect.

I'm currently playing on a 5yr+ weekly Exalted campaign in which we did that, too. Combat investment was low (a twinked-out chargen character would have been competitive with our 300+ XP characters), we did a lot of balance work, we had a gentleman's agreement to avoid paranoia combat... the system still broke down and was a pain to work with. We recently jettisoned it to use a combination of FATE for most things and Legends of the Wulin for combat specifically. So far it looks like a far superior option, even dealing with the issues of a frankensystem.

What I'm trying to say is, toss the Exalted system out and try something that actually works. You'll never look back.

# ¿ Sep 25, 2013 16:26

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

Stallion Cabana posted:

But this group currently has one game at over 1000 XP, and multiple others at 500-700.

If there's someone who understands how bad the system breaks, it's them. But they make it work. I'm not the only ST for the group, in fact I'm the least experienced and the newest, but I understand the system, and they understand the system, and it manages to work. It's not that I don't want to- though I admit I really don't. I don't understand FATE, but I do understand Exalted-, or at least that's not the only reason I stick with it. I also stick with it because it's an Exalted game group. They play other games but rarely. It's a group about Exalted games, and if I didn't run it in Exalted it would be hard to get the players to continue to show up.

The fact that your group can make Exalted work past Essence 4 is impressive. My hat's off to you and your table.

I'd love to help you with your CMA Charms, but whatever system chops I used to have for the Exalted engine evaporated after I started work on LotW (fun note: the wuxia style you want is part of the core LotW manual). However, we did amass a fair bit of custom content that might be useful to you here.

# ¿ Sep 25, 2013 21:15

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

Bardlebee posted:

The kickstarter was done November 21st 2012. Its not year 2013 almost November again. Does this mean my Deluxe Exalted book with gold spinners will take until August 2014?

Whenever they mention a possible release date, I add 6 months. So when they originally said December 2012, I assumed August 2013. For the latest October 2013, I assumed April 2014. It hasn't been an accurate forecasting method, but at least you take the delays in stride!

# ¿ Oct 4, 2013 07:00

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 14, 2024 01:45

Lymond: May 30, 2013; Dark Lord in training

Hidingo Kojimba posted:

Eh, the radio silence on mechanics has been going on longer than that. I recall something similar happened with Solar social charm previews, though those involved manipulation of cultural stereotypes rather than badly implemented Victorian porn-homages so people weren't exactly freaked out.

Those social Charm previews were badly conceived (links here and here):
- No preview of the core system was released. No one knows what these things can actually do because we lack the context for it.
- Many system parts have the same name but work differently, like Intimacies, and this wasn't communicated ahead of the Charm preview. No one knows what's staying the same and what's changing.
- Formatting is identical to that of Ex2. This creates the impression that the system hasn't changed that much (which would be disastrous) and also that the new material is comparable to the old.
- The Charms represent a different direction for social mechanics, but no one explained ahead of time what that direction would be.

I can't tell what kind of feedback the developers expected from this. It's impossible to tell whether their mechanics are balanced or not, the discussion was going to be polluted by people applying the wrong context to the text and coming to stupid conclusions, and any discussion on the direction of social mechanics was going to be inhibited because maybe (generously) half a percent of forum posters would be capable of reading between the lines, extrapolating author intent, and then coming up with constructive feedback on system design. Customer feedback is already 90% garbage and 10% gold; this kind of preview is going to generate closer to 99% garbage. You should not design your previews to mislead nine out of the ten insightful people in your community of one hundred.

I'm not surprised that the Charm previews stopped but I am concerned that we haven't seen any core mechanics. Any Exalted splat gets hundreds of Charms, and substantive changes to core mechanics after that material has been written is really, really painful. That's what sunk Ex2 in the end: fixing the problems required rewriting half the drat game in the first place, so you might as well make a new edition out of the deal. The moment to playtest your core mechanics is before you spend months developing add-ons not just for Solars but for every drat splat you're planning. And while Holden and Morke are not dumb folks, the odds of their mechanics having systemic problems that are hard to spot but can gently caress the game up (you know, like Ex2's) are decent to good given the amount of complexity they're dealing with.

I'm concerned that by when people get to see the thing and can point out how and where it breaks it's going to be too drat late to make a difference.

Lymond fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Nov 2, 2013

# ¿ Nov 2, 2013 21:13

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Exalted 3E - We're All Exalted Fans Here

«‹›3 »